patrick.net

marcus says

Misc says

Yes, cancer deaths, pneumonia deaths, deaths from the flu, and deaths from heart issues are all down and can be attributed to blindly ascribing Covid as the cause of death.

Interesting. Would you please share source(s) on this ?

www.youtube.com/embed/K8E_zMLCRNg

logic says

mell says

If you severely restrict people's civil liberties and pursuit of happiness in a possibly unconstitutional way then the burden is on you to exactly detail and lay out the stats comparing all the other causes of death,

Lol, "you", who? Me? How the fuck am I doing that. Please tell me. I'm not the president of the United States, I'm not the one failing to bring this country together. Obama, a black man, did that 17% better than Trump.

If people say they have "verifiable proof" either they have it or they don't. The key word is verifiable. If I can't verify it how is it verifiable. Words matter. Like I said I don't care that much just calling people out on their bullshit. It will be interesting to look back in a year and look at how the numbers worked out but until then, I call bullshit unless anyone wants to provide better proof than subtracting a baseline. Show me the num...

The people who take away civil rights need to have verifiable proof but they don't. Sure you can ask for proof from the other side but it's not their burden as they're not infringing on millions of people and their livelihoods.

thomasdong1776 says

logic says

It will be interesting to look back in a year and look at how the numbers worked out

Of course all the PatNetters who now insist the virus is little more than a cold and that the mortality numbers are made up to make Trump look bad will all change their screen names then so they can't be held accountable for their bullshit.

Don't be daft you can do the math already. Most models agree that by now around 20%-25% have been exposed, we're only testing those with symptoms and severe cases. Of course you will have a lot of deaths with a new highly contagious virus where there's no vaccine. But the mortality rate is similar to that one of the flu, pretty much all experts agree on this by now. If you count flu deaths 24/7 365 days per year you get close to a 100k every year as well.

Nobody has said the virus is a hoax, or that it's not a bad situation, but it's not unprecedented and we have never reacted like this before to a bad flu pandemic, not in 2018, not in 2009, not in 1969. and the lives of people lost not being able to go to the hospital or too scared to do so or visit their MD and adding in those dying from suicide, depression, drug use due to grim economic outlook will by far surpass the deaths from Covid-19 in years to come. It's already happening all over the place, heart disease or cancer caught too late. You can ask any MD who you're friends with and they will tell you off the record that it's been happening, their hospitals are empty and that this situation is worse than Covid-19.

logic says

Show me the numbers otherwise it's not truth it's bullshit.

We were told we had to shut down and flatten the curve or millions would die. We shut down, flattened the curve, and < 100k died. There is your numbers.

Time to open up.

That proves my point nobody said it's a hoax. The virus will disappear one day that's a fact, that day may be soon or far out but the curves are already massively going down. The coverage it has gotten certainly is a hoax perpetrated by the Demonrats and CNNMSNPC. No doubt about it if you compare it to the coverage of past flu pandemics/epidemics.

Even if the press are a bunch of bohemian bourgeois who consider themselves international citizens of the world and don't give two shits about the USA beyond a history of slavery?

I think half a century of managing the press makes him qualified.

The media hated Nixon, Reagan, dubya too. The only republican they tolerated was CIA NWO operative elder Bush, and even then they preferred Clinton by a mile.

Covid is being overcounted, as there is a fiscal and political incentive to do so.

If we used German standards, the death rate would be at least half of what it is.

It's also interesting that ultimate power seems to change with the subject. Not more than a few weeks ago, that vaunted press was insisting POTUS couldn't force states to open.

Yet, it's also trying to keep Trump as the most responsible, ridiculously.

Can't have it both ways.

If the govenors are the primary actors, then Cuomo bears a huge chunk of responsibility and has to explain why his death rate are far higher than Florida or Texas.

logic says

Time to place the blame squarely where it should be, on the president.

What blame specifically?

Should Trump be blamed that New York and New Jersey were shit shows responsible for most of the country's coronavirus deaths by shutting down too late, refusing to sanitize the subways until last week and sending Covid patients back into nursing homes?

logic says

Last I checked he was the president and at the beginning he denied there was a problem, now some how that's new York's fault?

Trump and the Federal Government are responsible for cleaning New York subway cars?

If only Trump could have been more authoritarian and was able to quarantine America's own wet market back in February?

*"New York Gov. Cuomo says Trump has no authority to impose quarantine: ‘It would be illegal’"*
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/28/ny-gov-cuomo-says-trump-has-no-authority-to-impose-quarantine.html

Just stop guys. You're getting trolled. It's an airborne virus, anyone blaming it on any individual is slightly retarded. The politics came out and it's obvious. I'd stop wasting time.

jazz_music says

And don’t forget Trump made Obama show a birth certificate yet Trump doesn’t show his tax filing.

Being POTUS has requirements. None of which have ever involved tax returns. Not sure your point.

logic says

Unfortunately I won't be taking some random individuals word for it. Got any links Marcus and I would love to see them.

Merry Xmas:

At the same time, the state’s coroners — tasked with investigating suspicious deaths — have grown increasingly frustrated by the Health Department’s reluctance to seek their help.

Some have said the department’s numbers did not match what coroners were seeing. Those concerns caught the attention of State Sen. Judy Ward (R., Blair), who is advocating for a bill that would give coroners a bigger role in the crisis.

“There’s a discrepancy in the numbers,” Charles E. Kiessling Jr., president of the Pennsylvania Coroners Association and coroner in Lycoming County, said Thursday. “I’m not saying there’s something going on.... I’m not a conspiracy theory guy. But accuracy is important.”

It’s a matter of public safety, Kiessling said.

The confusion began Sunday, when Pennsylvania raised its coronavirus death toll to 1,112 — an increase of 276 overnight. On Tuesday, the department reported another spike, from 1,204 to 1,564 deaths.

In both cases, Levine said the surges reflected deaths that occurred days, even weeks, in the past.

“These deaths did not happen overnight,” Levine said Sunday.

The jump that day, first blamed on a computer glitch, was explained as a “reconciliation” of multiple reporting systems and the “culmination of that data-validating effort.” Levine also said the “significant increase” included “probable positive” COVID-19 deaths, as well as deaths confirmed with a test.

On Tuesday, Levine reported 300 probable deaths in the day’s count but appeared to indicate the situation was new.

“We will now be reporting probable deaths related to COVID-19 in addition to confirmed deaths,” she said.

That same day, department spokesperson Nate Wardle told Spotlight PA some probable deaths had been included in the count for at least a week or maybe longer.

Then, on Wednesday, Wardle backtracked, saying that although probable deaths had been added to the reporting systems as of April 13, the day before federal guidance changed, they weren’t included in the state’s official count until Tuesday.

https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/spl/pennsylvania-death-count-changes-confusion-coroanvirus-20200423.html

No surprise here. Like "Dr" (PhD in Social Policy) Ferrer of LA, the Public Health departments are full of Social (Justice) Workers and Bureaucrats with bupkiss actual medical or science credentials.

Ramp up those numbers!

Idiots don't see it's gonna backfire right on them.

What's funny is that some on this board are mad at "Far Right Wingers"

@WookieMan was one of the most moderate members of the Forum. Now it's pretty clear he's not voting Blue this year.

Was it the Pat.net right wingers, or the Dem-Media malarky?

socal2 says

*"New York Gov. Cuomo says Trump has no authority to impose quarantine: ‘It would be illegal’"*
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/28/ny-gov-cuomo-says-trump-has-no-authority-to-impose-quarantine.html

Trump has no authority here! I am in Command!

It's all Trump's Fault!

logic says

A great leader wouldn't be having these problems. Trump might have a few of these qualities but not enough to be considered a great leader. Check out #20.
He definitely lacks that.

I don't think you're getting my point.

You can't claim one day that all the authority rests with the Governors, then a few days later put all the blame on the President.

Well, you can, but it looks ridiculous.

That list above is rubbish. You simply have to be both Fox and Lion. Many leaders have no humility, for example, and pretty much almost all leaders in history would have laughed at Transparency and said you need just the opposite - Obfuscation.

logic says

Yet Obama was always at fault 😂 sad

Agreed! He was the worse fucking president ever. He never prosecuted the bankers and ran that insurance scam.

Severe sufferers of TDS think that if you don't hate Trump you support everything he does. Take a pill.

logic says

Lol, @wookieman who is blaming an airborne virus on an individual? Do you know what a straw man argument is?

Interesting, I never referenced you. Never said the word you or used your username in my comment. Why would you think it was directed at you? I'm also not sure why you're arguing about arguments. Seems silly.

logic says

logic says

Lol, @wookieman who is blaming an airborne virus on an individual? Do you know what a straw man argument is?

Interesting, I never referenced you. Never said the word you or used your username in my comment. Why would you think it was directed at you? I'm also not sure why you're arguing about arguments. Seems silly.

I'm a bit confused. Did you not say someone was trolling? One who is arguing that Trump started the virus? Sorry if I misunderstood this.

You called out my username. You asked a question that was clearly directed at my comment. Why? If you didn't think it was about you, why respond with my username? Why respond at all? Why do you need or want to know who it was directed at? We're not supposed to talk about other users here, which I didn't.

There are easily a handful of people in this thread that disagree with my view on this virus and what I'm saying. It's cute that you assume I was talking about you. Maybe I meant multiple people. Maybe I meant people in general that troll this topic, but not on this board/forum. I'm not going to directly call a user of this forum a troll. Not taking the bait.

You seem to be upset that maybe, just maybe we're right that COVID deaths are being over reported. NoCoup gave you a link. You then shifted to Trump being a shit leader and not addressing actual evidence that it's being categorized poorly or intentionally reported wrong. We can talk about "straw man" all day instead of just acknowledging the actual fact COVID deaths aren't accurate.

We somehow have 20X's the deaths of China with a 1/4 of the population. We're 3X's higher than the nearest country in overall deaths. Either the rest of the world is bull shitting stats or we are. We are the outlier in the data by a long shot. It's strange to see people bash their own government so hard, yet trust the data that it puts out on this virus. Strange, isn't it?

Onvacation says

Severe sufferers of TDS think that if you don't hate Trump you support everything he does. Take a pill.

Good insight.

Yes, somehow they think it's binary and have no room for subtlety.

logic says

Time to place the blame squarely where it should be, on the president.

logic says

logic says

I question why you say someone is making an argument that is obviously not being made.

WookieMan says

It's an airborne virus, anyone blaming it on any individual is slightly retarded.

It wasn't directed at you, but I suppose I could see why you thought that way now....

jazz_music says

Still don’t see a point here?

No. Tax returns are not required. Being a US citizen is. It's more than fair, well technically legal, to make sure our POTUS is a US citizen.

I'm not agreeing with the way Trump went about it by any means, but he technically had every right to question his citizenry. That's pretty much indisputable. So I still don't understand your point... Just say you didn't like how Trump asked about a legal factor in becoming POTUS. Not sure what tax returns have to do with it.

logic says

those 2 arguments are not the same. It appears to me that you are trying to say a user is making an argument that they are not and I am calling you out on that. Is that not allowed?

Quack! Quack!

logic says

. I find it odd that if this came from china the east coast has been hit the hardest.

When you put sick contagious people in nursing homes with people that have a lot of comorbidities what would you expect?

If I were a conspiracy theorist I might think it was planned.

logic says

Why say someone is making an argument they are not making?

logic says

Last I checked he was the president and at the beginning he denied there was a problem, now some how that's new York's fault? It's sad that some are so deranged that they can't find Trump at fault for anything, it's always someone else's fault.

You are clearly acting like it's Trump's fault for an airborne virus. I'm not sure how else this could be interpreted? I don't get the disconnect here. These are your own words???... are they not? You keep defending something like you didn't say it.

It's a virus. Trump, Bush, Obama, etc. ain't gonna stop it. It's going to kill who it's going to kill. But hey, Trump bad.

WookieMan says

It's a virus. Trump, Bush, Obama, etc. ain't gonna stop it. It's going to kill who it's going to kill. But hey, Trump bad.

It would be one thing if the US was doing uniquely bad compared to other Western Countries in Wuhan AIDS fatalities.

If we removed Cuomo and DeBlasio's fuck-ups in New York, America would be the envy of the world in combating this Pandemic.

logic says

I am saying Trump is a terrible leader and he responded poorly to the virus. I never once said that he is responsible for the virus

These are the same. You're implying that the spread could have been prevented by an individual. I never once said you think Trump created (or is responsible) for the virus. My reaction has been to the fact you think Trump or any POTUS had/has control over the spread of an airborne virus. The reaction by Trump has zero bearing on the spread as we've seen with multiple countries. But you've mentioned Trump multiple time. It's an airborne virus, has nothing to do with individual people and decisions made.

For fuck's sake, look at Socal's graph above? What other country would you live in that's not on that list? Most first world countries are dealing with this worse than the US (aka Trump in your world). I'm questioning our own stats with information that I know to be true and the reaction is Trump bad (I never brought him up) with no other evidence. I'm at a loss at this point with your logic.

logic says

It didn't offer any real proof of over counting just that it is unclear if it is happening or not.

Just admit there's not ever going to be proof for you. The theater is on fire and you're the one guy still talking about yelling fire in a crowded theater when it is in fact on fire. It's a stubborn stance when there's evidence out there, actual, anecdotal and hearsay. You're under the assumption everyone is lying to you. I'm not sure what the gain is on some random internet forum. I have zero reason to lie and every reason to protect my friendships and careers by NOT posting evidence here.

logic says

I'm not going to find it but I've said how much debt we have incurred under Trump.

I hate debt. Throwing money at lazy people is the worst possible option. We would have been better off letting 400k die as that would have saved money long term. Being dead serious given the demo of who is dying from this. It's harsh, but the people dying are draining the economy outside of healthcare. Their deaths are a positive.

logic says

Now you have called me a retard for the second time (first time was the tax argument). I'm dyslexic I've had difficulty with reading and writing my whole life. I write here because it's good practice.

I don't recall calling you a retard directly. My apologies if you took it that way. Also, if you have some ailment, I'm obviously not aware of it, so again, my apologies if I offended. Not my intention.

Your statements/comments have shifted from virus concerns to blaming Trump for the reaction. There is no "right" reaction to an airborne virus. There's no proof that decision x, y or z would have changed the trajectory. It's not possible. We have different countries, different health care systems, densities, demographics, etc. Even 2 years from now we're not going to have a clear picture. People have bias' and agendas. To think you'll ever know the truth is futile when so much of the data can be manipulated.

logic says

That you assumed I was talking about lives lost is not on me. I'm talking about wealth loss. But somehow his slow and terrible response is everyone else's fault.

Seems like some major goal post shifting here.

All of the government's lockdowns were justified under the reasoning of saving lives and giving our hospitals time to prepare and stock up on PPE and ventilators.

Besides, the biggest wealth lost is coming from Democrat run Blue States that have enacted the strictest and longest lockdowns like California, Washington, Oregon, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Connecticut....

Seems like some major goal post shifting here.
All of the government's lock downs were justified under the reasoning of saving lives and giving our hospitals time to prepare and stock up on PPE and ventilators.
Besides, the biggest wealth lost is coming from Democrat run Blue States that have enacted the strictest and longest lockdowns like California, Washington, Oregon, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Connecticut....
I agree and add that several beloved blue ideas are endangered by COVID-19:
Reusable grocery bags
mass transit
high density housing (or anything else)
PLEASE ADD TO THE LIST

Chinese would like you to believe this is caused by Trump and US. CNN would like to blame Trump. WHO would like you to believe Chinese did everything right. And President Trump went against the advise of WHO to block the Chinese. And CNN and Washington Post called him racist. Don't forget CNN stands for Chinese News Network. Do you know how many Chinese editors work for these companies? It is not funny.

Now, Chinese government is calling Trump racist for blaming Chinese government for cover up.

I don't get why we blame President Trump? Because CNN and Washington Post and New York Time had manipulate the people's opinion by deception and withholding information from the public. And it is working. It is sickening.

logic says

People really make themselves look stupid trying to protect Trump all the time.

logic says

Well accept for the FACT that fiscal response was achieved by taking on debt. Funny you overlook this connection. If US debt loads are not related to fiscal response please explain where the money has come from for our fiscal response if not from new debt?

It came first from Congress approving the debt and relief. Trump just approved what hundreds of other people approved and came up with. Had he not done it you'd be shitting on him. He signed it and you're still shitting on it. What was your solution? I hate the debt FYI. I don't think a bunch of shit heads should have gotten money they haven't paid a damn dollar towards. It is what it is.

logic says

Only because they pay most into the federal coffers. Red states tend to suck on governments tit while blue states are the government tit that gets sucked on.

Blue states redistribute wealth from actually productive red states with economic policies (strong dollar), financial instruments, and tertiary services to themselves. They organize the outsourcing of companies abroad and support the insourcing of H1Bs.

Workers and Owners alike in Blue States then flee to Red States, bringing their failed policy preferences with them.

California's Big Tech isn't the natural wonderstuff of Liberals. It's from Cold War Aerospace spending, gleaned from the entire country, conglomerating there and then expanding locally into electronics and computers.

logic says

I am shitting on Trump's poor and slow response and saying a better response might have caused less debt to be incurred.

Might have, would have, could have. Seems like all you have is after-the-fact speculation. Considering everything we know about the Covid virus today, he should have kept everything running and we’d have not needed ANY stimulus bills! We’d have lost more Libtards, but is that really a loss?

logic says

I am shitting on Trump's poor and slow response and saying a better response might have caused less debt to be incurred.

How? What response would have been better?

There's no misrepresentation of what you're saying. All you're saying is Trump is bad with zero alternative. What could Congress or POTUS have done different in your mind for a virus response?

My answer is time wasn't an issue. It was here before anyone even knew it. Before the dude in Washington state. We had organizations we give a lot of money to lie to us. Other countries lie to us. I'm not sure what response would have been better? There's also no way to prove that one approach was better than another. You're making a mountain out of mole hill over something that is completely uncontrollable.

logic says

Shaman says

he should have kept everything running and we’d have not needed ANY stimulus bills!

My point exactly a leader might have achieved this. Trump did not.

Meh. Time traveling criticism isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. Just like criticism that depends on mind-reading isn’t worth anything. If you ever develop a valid critique I will listen, but so far you got bupkiss!

WookieMan says

How? What response would have been better?

ORANGE MAN BAD

The consideration that perhaps Trump is not the worst possible president is consistently overlooked by people one might otherwise regard as sane.

Congratulations to Edward Bernays. His techniques have proven amazingly effective on a large segment of the population.

https://academyofideas.com/2017/07/edward-bernays-group-psychology-manipulating-the-masses/

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of…in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons…who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world.

ORANGE MAN BAD
ORANGE MAN BAD
ORANGE MAN BAD

There is literally no other thought in the minds of nearly half of the public. No particular reason that they can point to, but they don't question why they have this obsession and keep on watching the media. All reasoning is shut down with:

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But the world actually did not end when Trump was elected."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But the stock market did extremely well."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But unemployment hit record lows."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"He didn't start any wars, and in fact led us away from expensive violent foreign entanglements."

ORANGE MAN BAD

It's very sad really. You know the hate is eating them up inside, and you don't really want to see them suffer like that. There are worse things, but to watch such insanity is definitely among the saddest things around.

The best response may just be a gentle skepticism. "Really? He doesn't seem all that bad."

Do you really think there is nothing Trump could have done differently in his response that might have made for a better response?

Sure. Trump could have cut funding earlier that he did for the WHO, like right after the WHO claimed CV-19 could not spread human to human. Trump could have been more vocal pointing out how Pelosi and Cuomo were wrong to encourage mass gatherings after Covid arrived, and especially vocal about how it was a really bad (and possibly criminal) idea for Cuoma to force senior care facilities to accept known CV-9 cases. Cuomo's policies alone is why NY has about half the CV-19 fatalities for the nation.

jazz_music says

the volumes of reasons that have been offered to suggest that Trump is actually the grifting petty liar he appears to always have been as far back as the examples of racial housing discrimination in Section 8 subsidized buildings

Just because Trump has been known to associate with racist grifters doesn't mean he is one.

jazz_music says

So you’re saying that Trump hasn’t been partisan enough.

But the opposition is afflicted by blind hatred?

That's one way to put it. Trump has definitely not been exactly a fiscal or social conservative. His one theme is love for America and Americans. His opponents theme is hate for Trump.