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74
FortWayne
2018 Feb 19, 10:08am
FortWayne
2018 Feb 19, 10:08am
There are more gun laws than automobile laws already.
And yes more people die in car accidents than from rifles.
anon_8f378 says
And yes more people die in car accidents than from rifles.
anon_8f378 says
Sniper saysThere's a perfect example of Liberal Logic.
Any Libbies want to touch on that one?
Sure-it's another strawman. Gun control is about closing loopholes that allow "drunk drivers" in your analogy to get them.. It's about restricting the general population's ability from dangerous cars which is already in place. (read--non street legal)
If gun control were similar to automobile regulations, I'd be happy.
75
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 10:21am
TwoScoopsPlissken says
How about let's do both?!?
Why must everyone pretend we can't do two things at once?
Or a kid who the police responded to complaints 39 times at his house, was expelled from regular school, on SSRIs, and diagnosed with mental issues, experienced no intervention despite at least one verified recent tip to a LEO Agency about Violent Threats by an adult, and many more by peers.
Instead, let's select the politically difficult idea of banning firearms.
How about let's do both?!?
Why must everyone pretend we can't do two things at once?
76
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 10:21am
zzyzzx says
Enough with this nonsense. It really is one side made up of adults and the other made up of 3 yr olds.
More children dies of the flu last week than from school shootings.
Where is the cry from Democrats to outlaw the flu?
Enough with this nonsense. It really is one side made up of adults and the other made up of 3 yr olds.
80
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 1:49pm
Sniper says
This isn't correct. The nuke of the day was a pre-drednaught ship of the line with a full arsenal of long nines. Governments made damn sure that no private citizens with means could own one.
CajunSteve saysThe government pretty much has access to any and every weapon now. So, you think citizens should too, right?
When the 2nd was written they both had access to the same equipment.
This isn't correct. The nuke of the day was a pre-drednaught ship of the line with a full arsenal of long nines. Governments made damn sure that no private citizens with means could own one.
81
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 1:50pm
zzyzzx says
I'm all for the Swiss system. Everyone does 2 years in the military to get the right to a gun then gets checked out by the military every year. Can congress vote on that today?
Does Hondruas and Switzerland have he same poverty rate? Your picture doesn't say.
I'm all for the Swiss system. Everyone does 2 years in the military to get the right to a gun then gets checked out by the military every year. Can congress vote on that today?
Does Hondruas and Switzerland have he same poverty rate? Your picture doesn't say.
82
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 1:50pm
zzyzzx says
You were lied to there is no requirement for gun ownership in switzerland. Google doesn't work for you"
The swiss have some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. When will the NRA start lobbying for swiss style gun control?
You were lied to there is no requirement for gun ownership in switzerland. Google doesn't work for you"
The swiss have some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. When will the NRA start lobbying for swiss style gun control?
83
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 19, 1:59pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 19, 1:59pm
Oh look, NeverTrump Bill Kristol endorses NeverTrump Ross Douhat (The Very Reverend, Bailiff Knights Grand Cross of Honour and Devotion, et cetera) NYT Piece about banning AR-15s
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/opinion/sunday/no-country-for-young-men-with-ar-15s.html
I'm shocked that NeverTrump RINOs wanted gun control all along.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/opinion/sunday/no-country-for-young-men-with-ar-15s.html
I'm shocked that NeverTrump RINOs wanted gun control all along.
84
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 19, 2:12pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 19, 2:12pm
anon_81928 says
If you mean a long 9 pounder brass or iron cannon in the age of sail, merchant ships certainly carried those into the Civil War Era. Otherwise they would have fallen to pirates that abounded in the off the Horn of Africa, Red Sea, Persian Gulf, South China and Java Seas, if not elsewhere.
Here is a ship of the Black Ball Line with clearly visible gun ports. The ship was built in 1818 and this picture was painted in 1851, just prior to the Civil War.
A nine-pounder was hardly considered a big cannon, either. Six-pounders were for anti-personnel use; a nine-pounder would have been the smallest cannon effective against shipping. A nine-pounder would have been considered adequate only to fend off sloops, barques, and various smaller vessels. The Constitution, considered a Frigate, not at all a Ship of the Line, carried multiple 24-lb Long Guns.
Most private whalers carried cannon as well, and a great many skirmishes and actual wars were fought or began with or between whalers, such as the Nootka Crisis off the NW Pacific Coast or the capture of the French Whaler Hebe by a British Whaler in the 1790s.
This isn't correct. The nuke of the day was a pre-drednaught ship of the line with a full arsenal of long nines. Governments made damn sure that no private citizens with means could own one.
If you mean a long 9 pounder brass or iron cannon in the age of sail, merchant ships certainly carried those into the Civil War Era. Otherwise they would have fallen to pirates that abounded in the off the Horn of Africa, Red Sea, Persian Gulf, South China and Java Seas, if not elsewhere.
Here is a ship of the Black Ball Line with clearly visible gun ports. The ship was built in 1818 and this picture was painted in 1851, just prior to the Civil War.
A nine-pounder was hardly considered a big cannon, either. Six-pounders were for anti-personnel use; a nine-pounder would have been the smallest cannon effective against shipping. A nine-pounder would have been considered adequate only to fend off sloops, barques, and various smaller vessels. The Constitution, considered a Frigate, not at all a Ship of the Line, carried multiple 24-lb Long Guns.
Most private whalers carried cannon as well, and a great many skirmishes and actual wars were fought or began with or between whalers, such as the Nootka Crisis off the NW Pacific Coast or the capture of the French Whaler Hebe by a British Whaler in the 1790s.
85
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 2:30pm
Nope - not just an armed mere merchant ship. I am talking about the entire class of people who wanted a ship armed to the teeth - and had to become a sanctioned privateer to withstand a frigate attempting to "cross the T" and blow them out of the water.
86
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 2:30pm
anon_8f378 says
Exactly, let's discuss what's relevant and provide solutions. Got any for this list?
But since that is a lie, let's move on to discussing actual relevant issues and solutions.
Exactly, let's discuss what's relevant and provide solutions. Got any for this list?
89
bob2356
2018 Feb 19, 3:03pm
Hey, you guys keep claiming there is no such thing as an assault rifle, but want to use assault rifles in statistics. Sorry you can't have it both ways.
90
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 19, 3:14pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 19, 3:14pm
anon_ba2d2 says
Google "Letter of Marque"
In the War of 1812, privately armed and staffed American privateers were legendary, a major pain in the ass for Great Britain. Over 300 ships were captured by US Private Letters of Marque, owned and financed by wealthy Boston and Groton businessmen.
The "Prince de Neufchatel" was a famous US privately owned privateer that was armed to the teeth with 16 12-pounder cannon and armed mariners that operated in the War of 1812.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_de_Neufchatel
Nope - not just an armed mere merchant ship. I am talking about the entire class of people who wanted a ship armed to the teeth - and had to become a sanctioned privateer to withstand a frigate attempting to "cross the T" and blow them out of the water.
Google "Letter of Marque"
In the War of 1812, privately armed and staffed American privateers were legendary, a major pain in the ass for Great Britain. Over 300 ships were captured by US Private Letters of Marque, owned and financed by wealthy Boston and Groton businessmen.
The "Prince de Neufchatel" was a famous US privately owned privateer that was armed to the teeth with 16 12-pounder cannon and armed mariners that operated in the War of 1812.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_de_Neufchatel
94
Booger
2018 Feb 19, 3:40pm
Booger
2018 Feb 19, 3:40pm
When a cop fatally shoots someone, democrats blame the cop. When a democrat shoots someone, democrats blame the gun.
96
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 4:02pm
bob2356 says
Which statistics would that be? The FBI?
Hey, you guys keep claiming there is no such thing as an assault rifle, but want to use assault rifles in statistics. Sorry you can't have it both ways.
Which statistics would that be? The FBI?
97
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 4:02pm
anon_8f378 says
Good idea:
Grim Statistics On Child Drownings.
350 children under the age of five drown in pools each year nationwide.
Among unintentional injuries, drowning is the second leading cause of death to this age group after motor vehicle accidents. In some Sunbelt states such as California, Florida and Arizona, drowning is the leading cause of accidental death to children under five.
Another 2,600 children are treated in hospital emergency rooms each year for near-drowning incidents. Some of these submersion accidents result in permanent brain damage.
http://www.momsteam.com/sports/swimming/safety/grim-statistics-on-child-drownings
We need to BAN swimming pools. No one needs a pool filled with water in their backyard.
More kids die from needless drowning than being killed by AR-15's.
Where's your concern about these children?
So, having a swimming pool in a household is something like 4.3 to 5.6 times as likely to lead to an accidental death as having a firearm, when we look at the numbers for all age groups. For children less than 15, the difference is more like 19 to 25 times as likely.
let's move on to discussing actual relevant issues and solutions.
Good idea:
Grim Statistics On Child Drownings.
350 children under the age of five drown in pools each year nationwide.
Among unintentional injuries, drowning is the second leading cause of death to this age group after motor vehicle accidents. In some Sunbelt states such as California, Florida and Arizona, drowning is the leading cause of accidental death to children under five.
Another 2,600 children are treated in hospital emergency rooms each year for near-drowning incidents. Some of these submersion accidents result in permanent brain damage.
http://www.momsteam.com/sports/swimming/safety/grim-statistics-on-child-drownings
We need to BAN swimming pools. No one needs a pool filled with water in their backyard.
More kids die from needless drowning than being killed by AR-15's.
Where's your concern about these children?
So, having a swimming pool in a household is something like 4.3 to 5.6 times as likely to lead to an accidental death as having a firearm, when we look at the numbers for all age groups. For children less than 15, the difference is more like 19 to 25 times as likely.
98
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 4:03pm
anon_cf6c6 says
In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional - as in they WANT someone to die.
Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things on that list that kill people are not intentional - and its difficult to regulate something which causes death as an accident in the first place.
anon_8f378 saysBut since that is a lie, let's move on to discussing actual relevant issues and solutions.
Exactly, let's discuss what's relevant and provide solutions. Got any for this list?
In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional - as in they WANT someone to die.
Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things on that list that kill people are not intentional - and its difficult to regulate something which causes death as an accident in the first place.
99
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 4:03pm
anon_cf6c6 says
In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional - as in they WANT someone to die.
Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things on that list that kill people are not intentional - and its difficult to regulate something which causes death as an accident in the first place.
anon_8f378 saysBut since that is a lie, let's move on to discussing actual relevant issues and solutions.
Exactly, let's discuss what's relevant and provide solutions. Got any for this list?
In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional - as in they WANT someone to die.
Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things on that list that kill people are not intentional - and its difficult to regulate something which causes death as an accident in the first place.
100
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 4:03pm
anon_cf6c6 says
The interesting thing about that list is that it shows society has a much higher tolarence for bad shit that happens where the relationship between cause and effect is well understood
Not so with things like a school shooting or other so called RANDOM acts of violence. Society has a much lower tolerance for these.
It is the randomness which also works to whip up the conservative crowd when the issue is terrorism. In other words "terrorism = omg ban Muslims" to a conservative works on the same mechanism "school shooting = omg ban guns" does to a liberal.
anon_8f378 saysBut since that is a lie, let's move on to discussing actual relevant issues and solutions.
Exactly, let's discuss what's relevant and provide solutions. Got any for this list?
The interesting thing about that list is that it shows society has a much higher tolarence for bad shit that happens where the relationship between cause and effect is well understood
Not so with things like a school shooting or other so called RANDOM acts of violence. Society has a much lower tolerance for these.
It is the randomness which also works to whip up the conservative crowd when the issue is terrorism. In other words "terrorism = omg ban Muslims" to a conservative works on the same mechanism "school shooting = omg ban guns" does to a liberal.
101
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 4:03pm
anon_cf6c6 says
In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional - as in they WANT someone to die.
Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things that kill people are not intentional - and its difficult to regulate something which causes death as an accident in the first place.
anon_8f378 saysBut since that is a lie, let's move on to discussing actual relevant issues and solutions.
Exactly, let's discuss what's relevant and provide solutions. Got any for this list?
In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional - as in they WANT someone to die.
Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things that kill people are not intentional - and its difficult to regulate something which causes death as an accident in the first place.
103
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 7:05pm
anon_0e666 says
Wrong.
Society has gotten use to many hundreds of thousands of deaths in that list because they happen so frequently. They've become desensitized. Does it make those deaths less important?
anon_0e666 says
So society has a lower tolerance for something that happens rarely, and tolerates things that happen on a regular basis?
What's that truly say about society?
The interesting thing about that list is that it shows society has a much higher tolarence for bad shit that happens where the relationship between cause and effect is well understood
Wrong.
Society has gotten use to many hundreds of thousands of deaths in that list because they happen so frequently. They've become desensitized. Does it make those deaths less important?
anon_0e666 says
Not so with things like a school shooting or other so called RANDOM acts of violence. Society has a much lower tolerance for these.
So society has a lower tolerance for something that happens rarely, and tolerates things that happen on a regular basis?
What's that truly say about society?
104
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 7:05pm
anon_0e666 says
anon_0e666 says
Really??
Obesity isn't intentional?
Stuffing your face with triple cheese burgers isn't intentional?
Smoking isn't intentional?
Alcoholism isn't intentional?
Drunk driving isn't intentional?
Drug overdose isn't intentional?
Many of the others on that list are from the intentional items I just listed.
Not intentional? Really??
There are no words....
In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional
anon_0e666 says
Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things on that list that kill people are not intentional
Really??
Obesity isn't intentional?
Stuffing your face with triple cheese burgers isn't intentional?
Smoking isn't intentional?
Alcoholism isn't intentional?
Drunk driving isn't intentional?
Drug overdose isn't intentional?
Many of the others on that list are from the intentional items I just listed.
Not intentional? Really??
There are no words....
105
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 7:06pm
I think these threads on pat.net are a really good indication of how well propaganda works in the United States.
The NRA obviously knows how to appeal to a certain type of person--I'll give them that. They're actually using this tragedy to convince people that we need MORE guns in schools by arming teachers or adding God knows how many security guards.
Their bought and paid for Congressmen obviously spread the gospel, but it's amazing how many ordinary citizens fall for their propaganda as well.
The NRA obviously knows how to appeal to a certain type of person--I'll give them that. They're actually using this tragedy to convince people that we need MORE guns in schools by arming teachers or adding God knows how many security guards.
Their bought and paid for Congressmen obviously spread the gospel, but it's amazing how many ordinary citizens fall for their propaganda as well.
107
MrMagic
2018 Feb 19, 9:09pm
MrMagic
2018 Feb 19, 9:09pm
anon_3b28c says
Yes, security guards are never at a public places. Totally unheard of.
Wait.., cops are always at public sports games, NASCAR tracks, major concerts, parades, political and government buildings and all other types of large public events.
But asking to put security guards in schools to protect thousands of students or training teachers in CCW.... NOPE, we can't have that.
There you go folks, Liberal Logic at it's best!!
They're actually using this tragedy to convince people that we need MORE guns in schools by arming teachers or adding God knows how many security guards.
Yes, security guards are never at a public places. Totally unheard of.
Wait.., cops are always at public sports games, NASCAR tracks, major concerts, parades, political and government buildings and all other types of large public events.
But asking to put security guards in schools to protect thousands of students or training teachers in CCW.... NOPE, we can't have that.
There you go folks, Liberal Logic at it's best!!
108
MrMagic
2018 Feb 19, 9:10pm
MrMagic
2018 Feb 19, 9:10pm
anon_3b28c says
There are like 4 - 5 million NRA members in the country but there are over 100 million gun owners in the country. Does that sound like the NRA has any type of leverage?
anon_3b28c says
Exactly.
You've bought the "guns need to be banned" Liberal narrative, hook, line and sinker!
The NRA obviously knows how to appeal to a certain type of person--I'll give them that. They're actually using this tragedy to convince people that we need MORE guns in schools by arming teachers or adding God knows how many security guards.
There are like 4 - 5 million NRA members in the country but there are over 100 million gun owners in the country. Does that sound like the NRA has any type of leverage?
anon_3b28c says
I think these threads on pat.net are a really good indication of how well propaganda works in the United States.
Exactly.
You've bought the "guns need to be banned" Liberal narrative, hook, line and sinker!
109
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 9:10pm
anon_cf6c6 says
Yes - like the case of old age, in many ways those deaths ARE less important. In all those cases we know that bad shit happens, so we do some things to minimize them, but like old age, they all get you in the end so who gives a shit. That isn't the case with gun violence. Like terrorism, gun violence is random, it is senseless, and often the victims are innocent.
Note, for what its worth, I personally don't think we need to change the gun laws, but if you want to have an honest intellectual discussion, you must understand the uniqueness of gun violence relative to the rest of the who gives a shit deaths on that chart.
anon_cf6c6 says
We value predictability, and we abhor unpredictability. No more no less.
The interesting thing about that list is that it shows society has a much higher tolarence for bad shit that happens where the relationship between cause and effect is well understood
Wrong.
Society has gotten use to many hundreds of thousands of deaths in that list because they happen so frequently. They've become desensitized. Does it make those deaths less important?
Yes - like the case of old age, in many ways those deaths ARE less important. In all those cases we know that bad shit happens, so we do some things to minimize them, but like old age, they all get you in the end so who gives a shit. That isn't the case with gun violence. Like terrorism, gun violence is random, it is senseless, and often the victims are innocent.
Note, for what its worth, I personally don't think we need to change the gun laws, but if you want to have an honest intellectual discussion, you must understand the uniqueness of gun violence relative to the rest of the who gives a shit deaths on that chart.
anon_cf6c6 says
So society has a lower tolerance for something that happens rarely, and tolerates things that happen on a regular basis?
What's that truly say about society?
We value predictability, and we abhor unpredictability. No more no less.
110
anonymous
2018 Feb 19, 9:10pm
anon_cf6c6 says
Yes - that is correct. Not a single one of those things is done with an intent to kill the person. Death is a consequence of obesity, not the intent, Death is the consequence of alcoholism, smoking or any similar vice, but not the intent.
anon_0e666 saysIn fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional
anon_0e666 saysExcept for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things on that list that kill people are not intentional
Really??
Obesity isn't intentional?
Stuffing your face with triple cheese burgers isn't intentional?
Smoking isn't intentional?
Alcoholism isn't intentional?
Drunk driving isn't intentional?
Drug overdose isn't intentional?
Many of the others on that list are from the intentional items I just listed.
Not intentional? Really??
There are no words....
Yes - that is correct. Not a single one of those things is done with an intent to kill the person. Death is a consequence of obesity, not the intent, Death is the consequence of alcoholism, smoking or any similar vice, but not the intent.
112
bob2356
2018 Feb 20, 7:43am
Sniper says
Putting up 54 million in NRA campaign contributions in 2016 might account for just a little bit of leverage.
Of course some people claim money doesn't affect elections or politicians votes. Even some right here on patnet.
There are like 4 - 5 million NRA members in the country but there are over 100 million gun owners in the country. Does that sound like the NRA has any type of leverage?
Putting up 54 million in NRA campaign contributions in 2016 might account for just a little bit of leverage.
Of course some people claim money doesn't affect elections or politicians votes. Even some right here on patnet.
113
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 20, 7:48am
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 20, 7:48am
Unlike the Brady Campaign, the NRA is made up of millions of members and their contributions.
How many members does the Brady Campaign have? Two Million? haha
Which organization represents a mass movement, and a democratic membership, and which one represents a steering committee financed from wealthy foundations ?
May Democracy prevail against Elite preference.
How many members does the Brady Campaign have? Two Million? haha
Which organization represents a mass movement, and a democratic membership, and which one represents a steering committee financed from wealthy foundations ?
May Democracy prevail against Elite preference.
« First « Previous Comments 74 - 113 of 1,301 Next » Last » Search these comments
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Couple things to note in there:
1. The specific mention of a militia being the reason for the need to bear arms.
2. The 2nd Amendment never mentions the word gun at all.
So, what exactly is the definition of "arms"?
In 1755 Dr. Johnson’s Dictionary of the English Language was first published. It defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.”
Weapons of offence would seem to include pretty much anything and everything, from knives to nuclear weapons. The US has already seen fit to ban some weapons of offence so the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.
So it then becomes a question of which weapons should be banned, which should be strictly regulated, and which should be lightly regulated or not at all. Like anything else, we should weigh an individual's right with society's right. When looked at in that manner, it becomes very difficult to justify why fully automatic or semi automatic rifles should be allowed. What purpose do they serve an individual? And why would that purpose outweigh the extreme damage those weapons have cased society??
Patrick thinks the Chamber of Commerce is the worst organization, and he may be correct, but the NRA is not far behind.