patrick.net

CajunSteve says

So, what do you propose. Having a SWAT team clear the campus every day before and after school?

How about ONE (1) security guard for just one building that alone contains 1000 students, staff, and faculty on an average day?

This isn't a one-room schoolhouse in Intercourse, PA or Dry Weeds, Nevada. This is a Campus with 3100+ students, plus a few hundred faculty and staff.

When you don't have ONE (1) dedicated security guard for the entire campus - not an SRO whose responsibilities take them off site but somebody at an entrance point watching cameras - you have NO security.

It would be a scandal if this was an office park. It's infamous that there was not a single dedicated security person onsite and watching the doors and/or cameras for what is a massive campus, a town unto itself.

In addition, gunmen like this are actually cowards. Just seeing an armed presence might have deterred him.

Malcolm says

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer? First off, the AR15 can't really be concealed. In my scenario it is better than 50/50 that the officer would win, or at least the gunfight outside might have prompted a different response. The whole thing would have played out differently, including not being able to activate the fire alarm.

Because the security guard would likely be flirting with one of the secretaries or talking to a student or playing candy crush when the assault rifle toting murderer came up on him. The element of surprise would be squarely on the side of the kid.

CajunSteve says

Because the security guard would likely be flirting with one of the secretaries or talking to a student or playing candy crush when the assault rifle toting murderer came up on him. The element of surprise would be squarely on the side of the kid.

Score one for CajunSteve

Here's what would have happened if they had one gatehouse at the entrance to the campus.

Kid drives up in an Uber. Guard gets the Kid's name, looks him up, he's on a list because the school already put out a warning he was not to enter and was expelled.

You've just prevented a mass shooting.

CajunSteve says

Yes, we can spend a zillion dollars and put armed guards at every entrance and exit 24 hours a day,

CajunSteve says

This is dumbassery

You responded perfectly to your first statement.

CajunSteve says

Because the security guard would likely be flirting with one of the secretaries or talking to a student or playing candy crush when the assault rifle toting murderer came up on him. The element of surprise would be squarely on the side of the kid.

When the kid pulled the alarm, the guard would have seen the camera and saw a kid with a backpack fleeing the scene, which would have totally changed the encounter. He could have cancelled the alarm, put out on the PA to lock all classroom doors and stay inside, or take other actions that would have prevented many deaths.

And if it was a gatehouse guard, the kid probably wouldn't have gained entry. The Uber Driver ain't gonna ram the gate to deliver the gunman to the front door of the school.

Chances are the AR-15 was disassembled in the backpack, or it was a hell of a tall backpack.

Not having ONE (1) dedicated campus Security Guard on a massive 3100 Student (+100s of faculty/staff) != Amazing Security, and could not at all be called a Lockdown or even basic security.

@Patrick

I believe comment 99 is against your rules

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Here's what would have happened if they had one gatehouse at the entrance to the campus.

Kid drives up in an Uber. Guard gets the Kid's name, looks him up, he's on a list because the school already put out a warning he was not to enter and was expelled.

You've just prevented a mass shooting.

lol--so every parent who comes to pick up their child has to be cleared by a security guard? Do you have any idea how long that would take and how impractical it is?

CajunSteve says

I believe comment 99 is against your rules

I believe 90 was also against "Your Rules" @Patrick.

I'm an Armchair Quarterback for noticing there was not a single ONE (1) dedicated guard for an immense campus of 3100+ Kids.

Imagine if Lockheed-Martin, or the Department of Energy, or for that matter General Mills or the Florida Department of Agriculture or a UPS distribution center did not have a single dedicated security guard for a campus of over 3100 employees, nor a controlled gateway for vehicles.

If some crazed shooter, or random individual, entered that facility and killed somebody or stole documents, the lack of even rudimentary security would be a scandal.

Here we have a kid already on a list and known to the school authorities as well as the Sheriff's Office, who could penetrate a 3100+ campus without the least interaction with a human being, because there wasn't a single dedicated security person for a facility of that size.

And people are saying "What could we have done?"

PS The last TWO hospitals I went into, both in Florida and one in a rural unincorporated part of the county that only had a handful of beds, I had to give up my Driver's License and take a picture to get past the security guard, who gave me a badge with my photo on it. This hospital had maybe a few hundred patients and staff at most and definitely less than 3000 people at any given time.

Like I said, the school had no security to speak of.

CajunSteve says

@Patrick

I believe comment 99 is against your rules

Since when is requoting a poster a problem?

CajunSteve says

lol--so every parent who comes to pick up their child has to be cleared by a security guard?

Do many parents carry AR-15's with them when they pick up their kids?

"We have a security person. Our only choice is to ban all firearms."
"Where was the security officer at the time of the shooting?"
"Oh, he was 20 miles away interviewing the potential hire for the new Assistant Food and Beverage Director."

Malcolm says

CajunSteve says

I agree with you except for the community officer part. He would have been the 1st casualty.

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer?

Exactly, he wouldn't

A trained LEO or ex military SRO would NOT be taken by surprise by a punk ass kid?

That's Hollywood movie fiction.

Malcolm says

CajunSteve says

I agree with you except for the community officer part. He would have been the 1st casualty.

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer?

Exactly, he wouldn't

A trained LEO or ex military SRO would NOT be taken by surprise by a punk ass kid?

That's Hollywood movie fiction.

Malcolm says

CajunSteve says

I agree with you except for the community officer part. He would have been the 1st casualty.

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer?

Exactly, he wouldn't .

A trained LEO or ex military SRO would NOT be taken by surprise by a punk ass kid?

That's Hollywood movie fiction.

CajunSteve says

or we can simply make it impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

Great, what NEW law, on top of the existing 20,000 gun laws should be written to accomplish that. Please be specific and refrain from hyperbole.

I'm seriously interested on how you can accomplish that.

What NEW laws would a mentally derange kid honor, since they don't honor any of the existing ones?

Sniper says

What if an armed and trained security guard was in the hallway and he knew they were there? Any chance the outcome might have changed when the guard heard him shooting his way in?

For starters, the cops would have had a heads-up real fast. And give the kids time to escape or lock the classroom doors.

But the AR-15 was almost certainly in his backpack, and at least on it's hinges. If he decided to shoot his way through the gatehouse/front door, he'd have to take off the backpack, pull out the rifle, and put it together. 30 seconds if he was stone-cold SSRI overdose. Longer if he was the least nervous.

Every delay and obstacle increases the chance of survival. Too bad there weren't any at the school.

"But Muh Cameras"

That nobody was watching.

Malcolm says

First, I am not anti gun or liberal, but facts is facts. Australia is averaging 1 out of 100,000 deaths from homicide. The USA, depending on what numbers you can find are between 3 and 5 per hundred thousand.

Sure. Idaho has 1.9 murders per 100k, with the 3rd highest rate of gun ownership. Washington DC has 26 murders per 100k. Ask yourself what the difference is between those places.

Then do the same comparison between the US and Australia. (Hint: it's not guns, it's culture.)

Last time I went to a hospital in rural Florida. A few hundred patients, faculty and staff, tops. Obviously, mostly adults.

No getting past reception without having your picture taken, your Driver's License copied, and your name, DL# and photo on a visitor badge.

This school was a facility with a population several times larger.

Malcolm says

Snopes classifies the claim that banning guns in Australia led to higher crime rates as false.

https://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Snopes is lying to you in the same way that most gun control proponents lie to you. They are measuring either "gun murder rates" or more disingenuous "gun death rates". From the article "firearm homicides (both suicides and intentional killings) in Australia had dropped significantly".

It's a lie. Go look at the stats yourself.

I believe the anon cf6c6 comment is against the rules as well.

CBOEtrader says

Sure. Idaho has 1.9 murders per 100k, with the 3rd highest rate of gun ownership. Washington DC has 26 murders per 100k. Ask yourself what the difference is between those places.

Then do the same comparison between the US and Australia. (Hint: it's not guns, it's culture.)

Even if you're right-so what? That's not an argument against banning weapons whose sole purpose is mass killing. Or better background checks.

Sniper says

Sandy Hook had the doors locked and Adam Lanza shot his way in.

What if an armed and trained security guard was in the hallway and he knew they were there? Any chance the outcome might have changed when the guard heard him shooting his way in?

There's always a chance, but Adam probably would have chosen to go in a different door then.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Last time I went to a hospital in rural Florida. A few hundred patients, faculty and staff, tops. Obviously, mostly adults.

No getting past reception without having your picture taken, your Driver's License copied, and your name, DL# and photo on a visitor badge.

This school was a facility with a population several times larger.

Does every patient in the hospital enter and exit at the same time every day?

LeonDurham says

Whoa Nelly. Let's back up. Is your position that citizens should have the right to any weapon?

Killing intruders, deer, and target shooting as well.

It's like saying cars should be banned because their only purpose is to run over people.

Yes, deleted a comment that was definitely just dissing other users.

CajunSteve says

Yes, we can spend a zillion dollars and put armed guards at every entrance and exit 24 hours a day, or we can simply make it impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

Yeah, the state can afford tens of thousands of $50k-250k janitors, nurses, admins and Teachers, but the cost of a 3-4 FTE $30k/year security guards at a 3100+ student campus would cost "ZILLIONS!!!"

Yet almost every hospital requires visitors to show ID and wear a photo ID badge these days, any schmuck can drive right onto a K-12 campus and walk in the door without the least interaction with a security obstacle.

"It's UNTHINKABLE to have rudimentary security at a huge school campus. The cost would be ZILLIONS! But we need to hire thousands more $60k/yr teachers! And more $100k consulting programs for our staff for diversity training! And millions on language teachers because dreamers need ENGLISH INSTRUCTION. No cost except Security Guards are TOO EXPENSIVE for our children!!! Ban all guns instead!!!"

What's your plan to restrict firearms from mentally deranged kids, when 39 encounters with LEOs, plus expulsion from public school, said he heard demons in his head, posted promises of violence online, and notification to the FBI of specific threats days prior to the incident, where the kid expressed a specific desire to shoot up a school did not result in any preventative act, such as forcible hospitalization.

"Don't worry, he's on an SSRI! No Mass Murderer has ever been on SSRIs! An SSRI and transfer to an at-risk school was all the intervention needed, Now we must BAN ALL FIREARMS!"

Forget about school shootings, any pervert, or non-custodial parent, etc. could have walked right in the door and nobody would know they were there unless serendipity intervened.

CajunSteve says

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Dumbassery on so many levels.

This is dumbassery Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

Yes, we can spend a zillion dollars and put armed guards at every entrance and exit 24 hours a day, or we can simply make it impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

Mentally ill can't get guns already in many states. The bigger problem is the ban of Christianity in schools, you ban god, you leave it up to the children to figure out their own morality, and they don't all turn into angels like liberal media movies thinks they do.

I 100% blame all of this on liberals, they've banned moral way of life, and this is consequences.

FortWayne says

I 100% blame all of this on liberals, they've banned moral way of life, and this is consequences.

I blame Liberals because they think Nurse Ratched runs every Mental Hospital and nobody should be forcibly hospitalized by the State, until they kill enough people.

FortWayne says

CajunSteve says

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Dumbassery on so many levels.

This is dumbassery Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

Yes, we can spend a zillion dollars and put armed guards at every entrance and exit 24 hours a day, or we can simply make it impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

Mentally ill can't get guns already in many states. The bigger problem is the ban of Christianity in schools, you ban god, you leave it up to the children to figure out their own morality, and they don't all turn into angels like liberal media movies thinks they do.

I 100% blame all of this on liberals, they've banned moral way of life, and this is consequences.

Yup the Founding Fathers hated America when they banned religion from government.

The Christians have been doing Gods Work by shitting on thr Constitution in the biggest SJW hissy fit in all of history, in order to restore sanity by sending gangs of unionized armed simpletons into the homes of innocent Americans to shoot them all dead if there was any chance they might have been medicating with Cannabis.

It’s not as if the Christian Republican Failed War on Drugs hasn’t wasted important LEO time where they could be working with communities to solve actual crimes, rather than working for Big Pharma to secure their profits

Lol- all you talking about needing a security guard when you don't even want to pay for the teachers in the first place how we going to pay for security guards?

TwoScoopsPlissken says

FortWayne says

I 100% blame all of this on liberals, they've banned moral way of life, and this is consequences.

I blame Liberals because they think Nurse Ratched runs every Mental Hospital and nobody should be forcibly hospitalized by the State, until they kill enough people.

I didn't know Reagan was a liberal?

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Yeah, the state can afford tens of thousands of $50k-250k janitors, nurses, admins and Teachers, but the cost of a 3-4 FTE $30k/year security guards at a 3100+ student campus would cost "ZILLIONS!!!"

Actually most states can't really afford it. And if you want a security guard that would be competent, it's going to cost a lot more than $30K/year.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Yet almost every hospital requires visitors to show ID and wear a photo ID badge these days, any schmuck can drive right onto a K-12 campus and walk in the door without the least interaction with a security obstacle.

That's just not true. Please don't misrepresent the truth--it makes solving the problem impossible. Unless you're running for office, it does no good. Pretty much every school is locked during the day.

Hospitals don't have their entire population of patients entering and exiting at the same time, with family members for each coming to visit at exactly the same time every day. It's apples and oranges.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

What's your plan to restrict firearms from mentally deranged kids, when 39 encounters with LEOs, plus expulsion from public school, said he heard demons in his head, posted promises of violence online, and notification to the FBI of specific threats days prior to the incident, where the kid expressed a specific desire to shoot up a school did not result in any preventative act, such as forcible hospitalization.

First off--ban weapons whose sole purpose is mass killing. Second--Anyone taking any medication for mental illness cannot get a gun. Third--require a medical exam for a gun permit. Not to mention tightening up background checks and closing loopholes such as the gun show sales

If you want to have a real discussion about how to stop more of these shootings, I'm game.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Killing intruders, deer, and target shooting as well.

It's like saying cars should be banned because their only purpose is to run over people.

If someone needs an AR-15 to hunt deer, they should probably get a new hobby.

Let's get real here.

Should anti-depressant prescription disqualify you from gun ownership?

The Liberal ignorance, it's astounding!!

LeonDurham says

First off--ban weapons whose sole purpose is mass killing.

Please define "sole purpose". Every weapon made today has multiple purposes.

LeonDurham says

Second--Anyone taking any medication for mental illness cannot get a gun.

So, if someone needs to take medication for a short while trying to get over the depression of losing their wife, they shouldn't be able to own a gun.

LeonDurham says

Third--require a medical exam for a gun permit.

What medical conditions would preclude getting a permit. Who decides what's an applicable medical condition?

LeonDurham says

Not to mention tightening up background checks

What needs to be tightened up? Have you actually read a 4473 form yet?

LeonDurham says

closing loopholes such as the gun show sales

How many of these past mass killers bought their weapon at a gun show?

LeonDurham says

If someone needs an AR-15 to hunt deer, they should probably get a new hobby.

You can't use a AR-15 to hunt deer, it's not powerful enough. An AR-15 shoots a bullet approximately the same size as a 22. There are MANY more powerful rifles used for hunting. AR-15s aren't one of them.

Please educate yourself so you can stop showing such amazing ignorance on this subject matter. Parroting the NON FACTUAL Liberal MSM narrative is really pathetic.

LeonDurham says

Let's get real here.

I truly wish that would happen, these nonsensical posts are embarrasing.