patrick.net

WookieMan says

I don't think the usual suspects here at Patnet really understand IL.

I'm not sure what there is to understand that you haven't presented and what most here (I assume) know.

- Democrat super majority continually increases individual tax burden.
- Now you're ready to throw in the towel because of lost income due to taxation (your words)
- You're fed up with this increasing taxation and looking to leave.

This is the exact same story in California. This is the national platform of the majority of Democrat politicians.

The problem is, people who end up bailing on blue states like Illinois or California tended to vote for the very same idiots who taxed them to death (not saying this is the case with you). Then they come to their new low tax states and end up voting in the same dumb ass lefty Democrats that taxed them to death in their previous state. This is what has happened in Texas, and how Houston has turned slightly blue from slightly red in the past 10 years. Hope you don't end up doing that where ever you move to.

Goran_K says

I'm not sure what there is to understand that you haven't presented and what most here (I assume) know.

- Democrat super majority continually increases individual tax burden.

We can start with misunderstanding where the high tax burden in IL comes from. The State Legislature does not set property taxes.

There aren't Dem super majorities in most IL county boards.

anon_8f378 says

We can start with misunderstanding where the high tax burden in IL comes from. The State Legislature does not set property taxes.

So the high tax burden is due to local government setting high property tax? That's what you're claiming?

Wookie is complaining about income tax. Who sets that?

I took a job that was in Lisle, IL back in 2015. I never relocated my family to Illinois nor did I establish residency there. I simply lived out of a hotel during the week and commuted home to Ohio on weekends. I started working in DFW at the start of the new year and I am so glad to be filling out my last Illinois 1040-R tax form.

This state is horrible and has little redeeming qualities. I will never support a Federal Bailout for this state that is too fucking stupid to govern themselves. How about this idea? If they go bankrupt and go into receivership to the Federal Government, they become a territory of the USA and lose ALL representation in Washington DC. No senators, no representatives and no ability to become a state for many years. If they want to become a state again, they would have to pay back all monies used to bail them out.

Hutch says

@Goran_k Just your opinion or does Cali have this same clause in its constitution? Also is Cali facing similar shortfalls to funding its retirement benefits?

Facts? Proof?

California started the "California Rule" which many Liberal Blue states like Illinois adopted to their constitution.

There is no way Illinois or California or Connecticut or New Jersey, New York.......can fix these issues without reforming pensions. You can only raise taxes so high.

There is hope since several California State courts have recently ruled that the California Rule and pensions should not be immutable and open for negotiation. The State Supreme Court will be tackling this case later this year.

anon_8f378 says

We can start with misunderstanding where the high tax burden in IL comes from. The State Legislature does not set property taxes.

We are talking public sector pensions here. Where do you think all of these costs came from? I don't see many public sector labor unions and government employee groups lobbying or supporting Republican candidates. It's a total corruption feedback loop where public sector unions use our tax dollars to elect Democrats who grow government and give government employees fat salaries and benefits.

thenuttyneutron says

This state is horrible and has little redeeming qualities. I will never support a Federal Bailout for this state that is too fucking stupid to govern themselves. How about this idea? If they go bankrupt and go into receivership to the Federal Government, they become a territory of the USA and lose ALL representation in Washington DC. No senators, no representatives and no ability to become a state for many years. If they want to become a state again, they would have to pay back all monies used to bail them out.

Sounds like a great plan to me.

Goran_K says

Wookie is complaining about income tax. Who sets that?

Is he?

WookieMan says

You are completely right on this. It's not that bad on an income tax basis.

As someone who has lived in IL, I can tell you that property taxes and sales taxes are high. Income taxes are low to average

WookieMan says

IL really should have been split in half as a northern section and southern section. The southern section operating more like a Iowa or Indiana.

How would this fix the problem? You would still have the majority of the pension debt and high cost of government (along with the dysfunction and crime) of Chicago in the Northern half of the state. Does Northern Illinois just need to elect more union toady Democrats to fix this problem?

Honestly, I don't get how people can suffer the high taxes and dysfunction of Illinois, New Jersey or New York. Especially living in Illinois when Indiana next door is pretty much identical once you get out into the suburbs and country. We have the same problems in California, but at least our weather is perfect and we have surf. I rationalize the high cost of California living as basically a "luxury tax".

Oh the above was me. But seriously when is enough enough? When do voters wake up and say I can't take it no more?? I am not paying 15k a year for a 300-500k house with no end in sight.
Why does a village manager get 300k a year-more than most Governors? What does said village manager do? Why does a teacher get a pension from my money?? When is it enough??? Tax and spend liberals always seem to have their supply of people who vote for them.

anon_8f378 says

e can start with misunderstanding where the high tax burden in IL comes from. The State Legislature does not set property taxes.

So tell me Joey-can a local govt anywhere in IL set whatever benefit they want for their employees. Can they set a right to work zone in their jurisdiction. Can they cut pension and dump their obligations??

anon_8f378 says

Is he?

Uh yeah.

This is another reason I hate the back and forth on Trump. In the next 3 or 7 years if Trump is elected again, he will not even remotely have as much impact on my finances as my state legislative branch does. Next stop on the IL tax train is double digit income taxes. That will literally cost me $10k+ if we go 10% plus on IL income taxes. This is a when not if conversation.

anon_8f378 says

Goran_K says

Wookie is complaining about income tax. Who sets that?

Is he?

WookieMan says

You are completely right on this. It's not that bad on an income tax basis.

As someone who has lived in IL, I can tell you that property taxes and sales taxes are high. Income taxes are low to average

I did say this of course. My issue is with the increase here last summer of income tax and I'm now reading articles about borrowing $100B. The overall rate when compared to other states nationally is not that bad. If you compare it to CA we're kicking ass. If you compare it to FL or TX, well, we suck. On a tax rate basis.

I admittedly lean right fiscally, well most the time. But I also understand private businesses aren't just going to make roads, bridges, etc. out of the goodness of their hearts. They'll pitch in with taxes, which I'm willing to do as long as my money is being used intelligently. I don't think that's the case here in IL, spending the tax dollars intelligently. Our roads and bridges for example suck.

Bottom line is, as a ratio or percentage, I don't think there's another state in the country that has a worse off pension problem. This all has to be paid technically unless bankruptcy becomes a viable option somehow. The bond holders that helped to keep paying the retirees will get the shaft, but they're supposedly uber wealthy so who cares, right? You can't not pay the retired teachers less? Not saying this is either or.

I don't have the solution. My mom is actually a retired teacher here in IL. She would be fine, but a lot wouldn't if their pension was adjusted. Yes voting has consequences. There is no magic pill for IL problems. It's just no one is bringing any ideas to the table that I've heard. Just a lot of fighting and finger pointing. Each day that goes by IL is literally that much closer to default. My link in my OP is talking about IL borrowing $100B. Fucking $100B. Think about that.

I'm ultimately resigned to the fate that this doesn't get resolved. There's no evidence it will. I think a lot of people kind of point and laugh and say it's like CA, NJ, NY, etc whatever. This is over the top rhetoric, but someone show me a way out for IL without doubling the tax rate, cutting pensions and cutting a bunch of other governemnt services? There's a reason lawmakers are throwing out borrowing $100B. And it's not cause I'm crazy.

lostand confused says

When do voters wake up and say I can't take it no more?? I am not paying 15k a year for a 300-500k house with no end in sight.

It can't end. I think you know that. You can't keep paying government workers while decreasing the tax revenues by lowering property taxes or income taxes. IL will be the first state to attempt some form of BK if you ask me. All I'd suggest is to be prepared as I recall you live in this utopia. Again, one hundred fucking BBBBBillion! This is the solution from our elected officials!!??!

WookieMan says

There is no magic pill for IL problems. It's just no one is bringing any ideas to the table that I've heard. Just a lot of fighting and finger pointing.

There is no painless way to fix this. If the pensions can't get in better shape in this stock market - when will they?

EVERYONE is going to have to take a bite of the crap sandwich. Illinois citizens are going to get raped in higher taxes, your services (infrastructure, education, welfare spending) will be cut, and bond holders are going to lose. But the pain can be alleviated somewhat if the government employees, Democrat politicians/judges and their unions agree to some pension reform.

What moron is going to buy these bonds?

Booger says

What moron is going to buy these bonds?

Unfortunately morons looking for double digit returns that likely won't get paid back. Probably CALPERS? Is that the correct acronym for what I think it is that I'm trying to make a bad joke about?

I just don't know if there are enough morons to come up with $100B. It's America though, there's Facebook and shit, so, there's that...

Who knows maybe Chinese investors, then they will have 30 billion bonds to pay the interest and raise taxes again.

WookieMan says

Unfortunately morons looking for double digit returns that likely won't get paid back. Probably CALPERS? Is that the correct acronym for what I think it is that I'm trying to make a bad joke about?

Brilliant idea! Just have the insolvent states buy each other's debt. They could do this by kiting checks between themselves for a few years. Think of it as a massive circle that ends where all the participants simultaneously pivot to the left and insert their penis into the ass of the state next to them. State sanctioned sodomy at it's finest!

thenuttyneutron says

WookieMan says

Unfortunately morons looking for double digit returns that likely won't get paid back. Probably CALPERS? Is that the correct acronym for what I think it is that I'm trying to make a bad joke about?

Brilliant idea! Just have the insolvent states buy each other's debt. They could do this by kiting checks between themselves for a few years. Think of it as a massive circle that ends where all the participants simultaneously pivot to the left and insert their penis into the ass of the state next to them. State sanctioned sodomy at it's finest!

I'm on board with the sarcasm, hence my comment. But let's all be honest here, isn't this what is actually going on? Again, I dig the comment, but when does this not become funny anymore? For me in IL the chickens are coming home to roost. I literally have a contingency plan to move out of this state. I'm not kidding at all. Why should I need to do this? Oh wait, borrowing $100B will fix this.

WookieMan says

I'm on board with the sarcasm, hence my comment. But let's all be honest here, isn't this what is actually going on? Again, I dig the comment, but when does this not become funny anymore? For me in IL the chickens are coming home to roost. I literally have a contingency plan to move out of this state. I'm not kidding at all. Why should I need to do this? Oh wait, borrowing $100B will fix this.

I feel empathy for you but Illinois is not my problem. You need to get the hell out of Illinois and make it someone else's problem. This may require you to sell your house at a huge discount. Just don't wait too long because many other people like you are going to be doing the same thing. Hell you may not be able to give the house away when the massive exodus is at its peak.

Look at states like Ohio that have low property taxes and a moderate income tax. Retired people with smaller incomes pay little income tax and this benefits older people.

thenuttyneutron says

I feel empathy for you but Illinois is not my problem.

It will be if I think it goes down like I think it will. It will cost you minimal dollars, but make no mistake, I predict IL will need a bailout in some form in the next 5-10 years outside of the Dow going to 60k in that time.

thenuttyneutron says

Hell you may not be able to give the house away when the massive exodus is at its peak

I'm good here. Strong equity in my house. As I mentioned, I have an exit plan. Sad but true.

thenuttyneutron says

Look at states like Ohio that have low property taxes and a moderate income tax

Dear god. You picked probably my least favorite state in this country. It MAYBE beats Mississippi or Alabama. Maybe New Mexico (haven't been). Sooooo many better options when you account for everything.

Why is Ohio your least favorite state? I think that it is a very good state to live in.

My income tax is reasonable ~5%. My property taxes are low at about $2600 per year for a house that cost me $300 k to build. The sales tax is about 6%.

Ohio is also a state that respects civil rights.

The only thing that sucks are the winters. The summers however more than make up for it.

Booger says

What moron is going to buy these bonds?

I was thinking the same thing. It's literally junk. $100 billion of junk.

socal2 says

Illinois citizens are going to get raped in higher taxes, your services (infrastructure, education, welfare spending) will be cut, and bond holders are going to lose. But the pain can be alleviated somewhat if the government employees, Democrat politicians/judges and their unions agree to some pension reform.

Or those Democrats who created the problem in the first place just get voted out. Better to cut the cancer out than let it remain IMO.

Booger says

What moron is going to buy these bonds?

California might.

thenuttyneutron says

Why is Ohio your least favorite state? I think that it is a very good state to live in.

My income tax is reasonable ~5%. My property taxes are low at about $2600 per year for a house that cost me $300 k to build. The sales tax is about 6%.

Ohio is also a state that respects civil rights.

The only thing that sucks are the winters. The summers however more than make up for it

OH is not bad-just the toll roads are a killer. At least in IL only some roads are tolls and you can go around them. WI has no toll roads-so cool. But I don't think there is much of a difference ebtween OH, IN, IL. once you go past the youth stage-you don't need big cities!

IL the proeprty taxes keep raising and looks like next term that dem frontruner might win. He wants universal healthcare, loves illegals, not a word on obscene proeprty taxes-oh yeah he wants progressive taxes-why do people making 300k ayear-village managers-live off people who make 30-40k a year- dems, dems. They are so off.

Margaret Thatcher — 'The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.'

Illinois, and California in a nutshell.

Goran_K says

Margaret Thatcher — 'The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.'

Illinois, and California in a nutshell.

and New Jersey, not far behind.

Sniper says

and New Jersey, not far behind.

Agreed.

Goran_K says

Illinois, and California in a nutshell.

You forgot Puerto Rico.

lostand confused says

OH is not bad-just the toll roads are a killer.

The only toll road that I am aware of is the Ohio Turnpike. It was cheap to use as well with an EZ pass. Chicago has toll roads all over the place. I commuted between Ohio and Chicago for a few years and there is only one complaint from me about Ohio. They enforce the speed limits so you had better not get caught speeding.

I just moved back to the DFW area and it reminds me of Shitcago. I think Dallas is just the "Chicago" of Texas. Dallas is also in trouble with pensions. Thus is why I plan to live in Tarrant County.

thenuttyneutron says

The only toll road that I am aware of is the Ohio Turnpike. It was cheap to use as well with an EZ pass. Chicago has toll roads all over the place. I commuted between Ohio and Chicago for a few years and there is only one complaint from me about Ohio. They enforce the speed limits so you had better not get caught speeding.

I was exaggerating a bit about OH. I just honestly don't get a good vibe when I'm there, which isn't that often. I was there last summer for a wedding just south of Cleveland. It was fine. It reminded me too much of IL though. Taxes and all that other BS aside, if I'm going to leave IL, I really don't want to move to a similar climate. OH is ultimately fine by me, just not my cup of tea with the 48 other options besides OH & IL (I'm not moving to any US territory, get that thought out of your head).

Plus every two years and especially every 4 years OH becomes a political shit hole. I can't even imagine the tv, radio, phone calls, etc. Whether I like it or not, IL is at least not a battle ground state so I don't have to deal with the nonsense that comes with that.

thenuttyneutron says

I just moved back to the DFW area and it reminds me of Shitcago. I think Dallas is just the "Chicago" of Texas. Dallas is also in trouble with pensions.

Texas has always intrigued me, but again, bad vibe. Haven't been to Dallas or Houston since I was a kid. Been to Austin in my 20's maybe 5-6 times and not a fan. Just don't think I could pull the trigger on that state and that's even with the no income tax.

I love the outdoors, including good cold weather activities, so pretty much any state with even somewhat mountainous geography is on my list. CA is too expensive. I love it there, not a fan of the people though, sorry guys. That includes everyone here at Patnet from CA, I don't like you ;)

I'm looking more at AZ, CO, WY, MT, UT, TN, SC, NC and maybe GA north of Atlanta closer to the Smokies. I like weed so CO would probably be number 1 on my list right now.

I'd very likely pick all those states before OH. If I'm going to be cold, I need fucking 11,000' of mountains I can snowboard on. After that I need larger rolling hills or small mountains. 34 years in IL and I'm done with flat land if I'm moving.

WookieMan says

I can't even imagine the tv, radio, phone calls, etc

I don't mind these ads. I get bored with the drug commercials and the political attack ads are a welcome distraction from the usual shit on TV.

thenuttyneutron says

WookieMan says

I can't even imagine the tv, radio, phone calls, etc

I don't mind these ads. I get bored with the drug commercials and the political attack ads are a welcome distraction from the usual shit on TV.

What? Who doesn't like a good drug commercial with all the side effect fast talk? This drug will help your pancreas, but it could also cause pancreatitis, which can kill you. Talk to your doctor if you have abdominal pain and your other internal organs are failing.

WookieMan says

'm looking more at AZ, CO, WY, MT, UT, TN, SC, NC and maybe GA north of Atlanta closer to the Smokies. I like weed so CO would probably be number 1 on my list right now.

Yeah I miss the mountains. In CA if you bought a house for 300k you pay 1% of it for evah with very small increases. So it helps in planning. I don't mind income taxes-you only pay on what you make. But high property taxes-you get cancer and your family is out because you can't pay taxes. And for what-so some guy making 300k a year can live off his pension??

CO is very expensive now though-looked into it. I cna move to Salt lake city-I hear it is very polluted though? Phoenix sumers are brutal-but N AZ is a few hours away.

Geograpy wise CA is ideal for me-especially coastal CA. I loved it-beautiful weather, oceans, deserts, mountains and up north temperate rain forests, lava beds, active volcanoes, caves etc etc-just beautiful. But I just can't deal with the SJW types anymore-losing patience as I grow older. TX is nice, but I really don't like the weather-IL is better, winters you just hibernate.
Utah maybe my next move.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-01/its-baaaaack-illinois-privilege-tax-bill

Illinois Democrats are pushing again for passage of the “privilege tax”

lostand confused says

CO is very expensive now though-looked into it

I know. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeed! Humans dig it, can still function and will move to where it's available. CO wouldn't crash necessarily, but if ganja was legalized nationwide the growth would stop and maybe see a 10% decline in GDP, real estate, etc. in CO. I'm waiting for their mini crash and hope it aligns with the most definite IL crash.

Booger says

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-01/its-baaaaack-illinois-privilege-tax-bill

Illinois Democrats are pushing again for passage of the “privilege tax”

This line caught my eye: "It was sponsored by Senator Dan Biss (D-Evanston), who is also a genuine contender for governor."

I don't recall if you've stated where you live in past postings, but if you live in IL as I do, this line is fucking comical from the article. Dan Biss has ZERO chance of getting the nod from the Dems to be their horse in the race. There's a fucking chapstick Kennedy in the race as well. No neck, JB Prickzer will be the Dem nominee. Fuck, this state is really doomed as I read what I'm typing.

Booger says

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-01/its-baaaaack-illinois-privilege-tax-bill

Illinois Democrats are pushing again for passage of the “privilege tax”

Looks like the Illinois government spends most of it's time trying to figure out how to sneak in new taxes without anyone noticing.
That's OK, it's all for a good cause. $300K pensions at 55.

www.youtube.com/embed/0CzCOEanyNQ