patrick.net

So the whole towing thing hasn't been addressed. And that's fine, I'm not sure it can be.

Again, I'm all for EV's. Malcolm your Leaf scenario makes sense and I'd push for people to do this.

Here's the problem: https://www.carmax.com/car/15506622
The same car essentially as a Leaf, with a gas engine is still going to be cheaper over time. And if you're not leasing, you eventually have a payment free vehicle if you can god forbid own a car for more than 3-4 years. 10 out of 10 times you'll come out ahead with the gas Versa over the Leaf. That's a direct apples to apples comparison.

I've yet to see any math to show it works out better over 5-7 years with the Leaf over the Versa. If you need a new car sooner than that, you have another problem that probably isn't all that environmentally friendly needing a new car every 3 years.

Malcolm says

Strategist says

An electric car goes 3 or 4 miles per KwH. At 7 cents that equates to 2 cents a mile. Imagine driving 1,000 miles per month for $20.00 compared to $100 to $200 for gas.
It's very sad. Exxon Mobil was such a nice company.

Your numbers are spot on, I know since I drive a Leaf. It is the most liberating move you could ever make. The Bolt might be my next car, as its range is insane. There is now NO reason to not go electric.

Yes, the general population is totally misinformed about the benefits of electric cars. It's changing very rapidly though. I have given facts for hybrid and electric cars to so many people I am acquainted with, who purchased these cars, and EVERY ONE OF THEM are so delighted they are completely switching to electric and plug ins only.
It's not just the savings in gas, but maintenance costs too. There is little or no maintenance on these cars.
You can lease these cars for less than the cost of gas for most cars. Here is the evidence for California. The federal rebates are built in, but the state rebates come in a separate check, tax free.

Look at the lease cost per mile, and deduct the state rebates from this. Makes it a lot lot better.
http://ev-vin.blogspot.com

WookieMan says

If you need a new car sooner than that, you have another problem that probably isn't all that environmentally friendly needing a new car every 3 years.

In the 80's there were so many cars left over from the 70's they were cheap hoopties kids bought for under $1000.
Those cars kept demand for new cars compared to the last 9 or 10 years considerably lower. Cash for clunkers cleared out tens of millions of otherwise cheap dependable transportation and created a walking, give me a ride, Uber class of young adults. For the first time in American History we have a generation of kids that have no mode of Transpiration depending on the kindness of strangers to give them a ride, or for the Uber driver not Mug and Stab them at least.
Cash for Clunkers got rid of most cars from the 70's, 80's and 90's that were still on the road when Bush left office. Even with soaring metal prices the carnage still continues as young kids were given cars more often than not, the insurance cost drove them junk the cars after a minor or major disrepair. People were getting $1200 for junk cars as scrap metal but as a used car they worth $700.

One thing I've noticed about the cars circa 2006 on is the amount of plastic in the bodies. They are holding up and not looking as beat up as used cars in the past.
More and more cars go and come off leases, and New cars get bought and worn in and enter the Used car market. There will start to be some pretty sweet 2006 used cars for a few hundred dollars.
Might put the brakes on the $35K starter car, green, hybrid, sports coup or otherwise.

anon_34fca says

So, you're spending 30% more for the same sized vehicle to save a few dollars on gas?

and you have to replace them more frequently?

This saves you money, how?

This is the misinformation I am talking about. I don't blame anyone. Please research carefully, you will be surprised.

Malcolm says

So in reality you are driving a pretty cool car

Sorry, but "Leaf" and "cool" do not belong in the same sentence. It's an econobox, dorkmobile or whatever the proper derogatory term is for Corollas and Versas of this world. Which is ok if you're into this kind of thing.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

FortWayne says

Where can someone buy panels so cheap that it works out that way?

Because every company out here that offers solar, charges an arm and a leg for them.

Define "arm and leg". As it stands now the system covering 90-110% of residential power demand in CA pays for itself in about 6-7 years. At least this is the numbers I've got from multiple solar companies. Ten years ago the number would be 15+ years IIRC, so it does get cheaper. Which also acts as an incentive to wait a bit more before purchasing one.

PS. This for fully owned system, I don't care about somebody else's property sitting on my roof, so no "solar leases" or PPAs for me.

I was told for me it would cost about 30k to get panels from Solar City by their rep who came out. Our electricity bill comes out to about $140/month. So
140 * 12 = $1680/year
30,000 / 1200 = 17.8 years (assuming money is not earning interest or dividents and just stays under the mattress). There is no benefit.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Malcolm says

So in reality you are driving a pretty cool car

Sorry, but "Leaf" and "cool" do not belong in the same sentence. It's an econobox, dorkmobile or whatever the proper derogatory term is for Corollas and Versas of this world. Which is ok if you're into this kind of thing.

You should check out the latest model of the Leaf.

Malcolm says

So the savings is no gas, which I use 10 cents a mile for easy math. No oil changes or tune ups, almost no maintainence. So in reality you are driving a pretty cool car for $100 a month.

Even the break pads went 115,000 miles on our 2011 Prius , and it's just a hybrid, not even a true electric.
It's just a matter of time before the truth comes out. Big Oil cannot fool all the people all the time.

Strategist says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Malcolm says

So in reality you are driving a pretty cool car

Sorry, but "Leaf" and "cool" do not belong in the same sentence. It's an econobox, dorkmobile or whatever the proper derogatory term is for Corollas and Versas of this world. Which is ok if you're into this kind of thing.

You should check out the latest model of the Leaf.

I'm cool with the Leaf, some pun intended there. The question comes down to if you're a leasing dude or own the car and can do some of your own maintenance type guy. I like to own the car. You can have the equivalent of the lease payments for 3 years and then own the car with no payments for 2-6 years afterwards if you take care of it. Those car payment free years destroy any savings of an EV during the first 6-12 months without said payment.

You will do better paying for gas and maintenance 100% of the time versus leasing an EV (Versa vs Leaf). If you're arguing over a 3 year period then I could be wrong. I've never owned a car for only 3 years though, so my bias is showing.

FortWayne says

I was told for me it would cost about 30k to get panels from Solar City by their rep who came out. Our electricity bill comes out to about $140/month. So
140 * 12 = $1680/year
30,000 / 1200 = 17.8 years (assuming money is not earning interest or dividents and just stays under the mattress). There is no benefit.

Ripoff. Go somewhere else, and if you are in S California, let me know. I could hook you up for much less. Those numbers are outrageous.

Strategist says

Even the break pads went 115,000 miles on our 2011 Prius , and it's just a hybrid, not even a true electric.

You drive a Prius, but think the Leaf is a dorkmobile? Don't get me wrong, I leased two Priuses, as I knew they were a stepping stone, and I am into that sort of thing; definitely wasn't trying to impress, but I have to tell you, that I like the Leaf much better. For styling and for the all electric coolness factor, it blows the Prius away.

FortWayne says

I was told for me it would cost about 30k to get panels from Solar City by their rep who came out. Our electricity bill comes out to about $140/month. So
140 * 12 = $1680/year
30,000 / 1200 = 17.8 years (assuming money is not earning interest or dividents and just stays under the mattress). There is no benefit.

You need to provide the right figures for an analysis.
I assume your utility is SCE, and you must have got that quote a while ago. $140.00 per month tells me you have a benefit in going solar.
You need to know how many KwH of electricity you use on an average month.
What KW system you will need to offset your use from SCE.
And the cost per watt installed.
You can then derive the cost per KwH. These salesmen have told me the cost was 8 cents per KwH, but I calculated 10 cents simply by treating the total cost after rebates, over a 25 year period as a loan based on 4%.

Strategist says

I assume your utility is SCE, and you must have got that quote a while ago. $140.00 per month tells me you have a benefit in going solar.

What the hell are your electric rates out there? Or do you have 3k plus square foot houses? That seems like a high average for the temperate climate you all have out there.

I've got muggy ass muggy fucking whether in the summer here in IL and I'd really be stretching to average $140/mo over the entire year. I'm closer to $110/mo. At $140/mo I could just unplug the fridges in the summer and keep my beers cool with the house A/C.

WookieMan says

Strategist says

I assume your utility is SCE, and you must have got that quote a while ago. $140.00 per month tells me you have a benefit in going solar.

What the hell are your electric rates out there? Or do you have 3k plus square foot houses? That seems like a high average for the temperate climate you all have out there.

I've got muggy ass muggy fucking whether in the summer here in IL and I'd really be stretching to average $140/mo over the entire year. I'm closer to $110/mo. At $140/mo I could just unplug the fridges in the summer and keep my beers cool with the house A/C.

My home is above 3K sq ft, but that does not mean I use more electricity than you do, simply because we have an ocean breeze. The problem we have is the cost of electricity per KwH used. It is horrendous and a rip off.
What matters is the electricity used in KwH. We use 1000 KwH in an average month, mostly due to charging the electric cars we have. Otherwise it would be 400KwH in an average month because we seldom use air conditioning. I believe the national average outside of California is 1,000 KwH per month.

Patrick says

I wonder if this takes into account the artificially low cost of solar due to dumping of solar cells by China. Maybe solar is not so cheap in reality.

Exactly what I was thinking.

WookieMan says

I think utilities are a big factor in holding back solar and wind. At least from the perspective of an individual home owner. But most homeowners can't even figure out how to put in a circuit breaker either. Let alone attach an array of solar panels to their roof without some contractor gouging them 20-40% on the total install. It's an uphill battle to really crack open the homeowner market in my opinion.

I was thinking that roof condition is a factor. It might not make any sense to get rooftop solar panels unless your roof is relatively new, Since the cost of the panel installation and having to remove them to replace the roof, then reinstall again could be an issue that nobody seems to ever mention.

zzyzzx says

then reinstall again could be an issue that nobody seems to ever mention.

I certainly am in that camp. I honestly never thought about having to replace your roof once the panels are up there. If I were to do solar though, I always figured I'd do it the same time I put a new roof on so that's probably why.

That said I've got a 2 year old roof myself and I'd be set for 20 years, but I still wouldn't really think about getting solar. It honestly goes back to the whole buy/rent thing. Most people live in a purchased home for 7 years on average. I may get my investment back right as I'm moving, but most the time the true savings gets passed on to the next owner. Solar could increase your homes value, but I honestly feel like people are really more interested in kitchen cabinets and what their bathrooms look like.

At least in my area the wife would be something like this, "those solar panels make the house look like shit." Solar probably hasn't even touched 2% in the residential market here (complete guess on my end). We also have weather that's a lot more variable and longer darkness in the winter then some southern states. So mass adoption of solar I think would be tough in IL without the cost coming down 50% from where it is now.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Malcolm says

So in reality you are driving a pretty cool car

Sorry, but "Leaf" and "cool" do not belong in the same sentence. It's an econobox, dorkmobile or whatever the proper derogatory term is for Corollas and Versas of this world. Which is ok if you're into this kind of thing.

I agree, the last thing I'm going to drive as my daily driver is a dork mobile like a Leaf. For a guy to say it's "pretty cool" makes me wonder about his manhood?

Then, there's this whole factor of size, where you can't carry anything big home when shopping at home depot, but I guess the Leaf is a great car to carry home your Lattes from Starbucks.

WookieMan says

That said I've got a 2 year old roof myself and I'd be set for 20 years,

I would think that a roof would last a lot longer there.

anon_7681a says

you can't carry anything big home when shopping at home depot

For as often as you are going to want to do that, Home Depot will rent you a truck.

Another good reason to move away from fossil fuels: the exhaust literally makes kids stupid:

http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.1001792

Children from highly polluted schools had a smaller growth in cognitive development than children from the paired lowly polluted schools, both in crude and adjusted models (e.g., 7.4% [95% CI 5.6%–8.8%] versus 11.5% [95% CI 8.9%–12.5%] improvement in working memory, p = 0.0024). Cogently, children attending schools with higher levels of EC, NO2, and UFP both indoors and outdoors experienced substantially smaller growth in all the cognitive measurements

Malcolm says

FortWayne says

I was told for me it would cost about 30k to get panels from Solar City by their rep who came out. Our electricity bill comes out to about $140/month. So
140 * 12 = $1680/year
30,000 / 1200 = 17.8 years (assuming money is not earning interest or dividents and just stays under the mattress). There is no benefit.

Ripoff. Go somewhere else, and if you are in S California, let me know. I could hook you up for much less. Those numbers are outrageous.

I would love to. What do you have in mind?

Malcolm says

Strategist says

Even the break pads went 115,000 miles on our 2011 Prius , and it's just a hybrid, not even a true electric.

You drive a Prius, but think the Leaf is a dorkmobile? Don't get me wrong, I leased two Priuses, as I knew they were a stepping stone, and I am into that sort of thing; definitely wasn't trying to impress, but I have to tell you, that I like the Leaf much better. For styling and for the all electric coolness factor, it blows the Prius away.

We drive the following:
2011 Prius
2015 Chevy Volt
2015 Mercedes electric drive (100%electric)

Leasing the electric cars worked out really well. Will be replacing the Volt with a new Volt. Replacing Mercedes with Tesla. Will be purchasing instead of leasing this time.
The range of 85 miles on the Mercedes was too inconvenient. Tesla's range of 200 miles + and super fast charging makes more sense.

zzyzzx says

WookieMan says

I think utilities are a big factor in holding back solar and wind. At least from the perspective of an individual home owner. But most homeowners can't even figure out how to put in a circuit breaker either. Let alone attach an array of solar panels to their roof without some contractor gouging them 20-40% on the total install. It's an uphill battle to really crack open the homeowner market in my opinion.

I was thinking that roof condition is a factor. It might not make any sense to get rooftop solar panels unless your roof is relatively new, Since the cost of the panel installation and having to remove them to replace the roof, then reinstall again could be an issue that nobody seems to ever mention.

That is correct. The best time to get solar panels is at the same time as a new roof. More savings that way as some of the labor is not being done twice.

zzyzzx says

I was thinking that roof condition is a factor. It might not make any sense to get rooftop solar panels unless your roof is relatively new, Since the cost of the panel installation and having to remove them to replace the roof, then reinstall again could be an issue that nobody seems to ever mention.

Even if your roof is relatively new there is an issue of roof damage during installation. This actually gives me a pause when I'm thinking about installing panels on the roof. I would imagine that the original warranty would be void if they find out that bunch of monkeys have been jumping all over it drilling holes and handling heavy panels...

So the only relatively bulletproof way to do it is to have both roof and panels installed by the same company (and pray it stays in business for the duration of the warranty).

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

This actually gives me a pause when I'm thinking about installing panels on the roof

Outside the cost of the panels and install, this is probably my first worry. If they're not installed correctly and I get a roof leak, well that could boost the cost of this whole thing a whole hell of a lot, wholly hell. I don't trust most contractors, even the ones I personally know.

WookieMan says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

This actually gives me a pause when I'm thinking about installing panels on the roof

Outside the cost of the panels and install, this is probably my first worry. If they're not installed correctly and I get a roof leak, well that could boost the cost of this whole thing a whole hell of a lot, wholly hell. I don't trust most contractors, even the ones I personally know.

Xactly.

WookieMan says

If you need a new car sooner than that, you have another problem that probably isn't all that environmentally friendly needing a new car every 3 years.

Cars are not friendly to the environment.
Nobody needs a new car but it is nice to have one.
Somebody needs a decent 3 year old used car with good mpg.

Onvacation says

Nobody needs a new car but it is nice to have one.

It would be nice to have sex with every grade 10 babe I see on the street (scale of 1 to 10, not talking about a sophomore in high school). That would likely be rape though.

Onvacation says

Somebody needs a decent 3 year old used car with good mpg.

So I'll settle for the 8's and 9's of the world.

Is this similar logic?

I'm actually okay with the 9, riding until it's a 7 overall, but more like a 9 for an 6-8 year old used car if that makes sense.

I think sometimes I really don't make sense. I'm sorry Patnet and Associates.

Onvacation says

WookieMan says

If you need a new car sooner than that, you have another problem that probably isn't all that environmentally friendly needing a new car every 3 years.

Cars are not friendly to the environment.
Nobody needs a new car but it is nice to have one.
Somebody needs a decent 3 year old used car with good mpg.

That’s the sweet spot when it’s still next to new but 75% discount from new

If you’re a good horse trader, you can buy these cars and then drive for a year, and then sell for ~ what you originally paid to purchase

errc says

That’s the sweet spot when it’s still next to new but 75% discount from new

If you’re a good horse trader, you can buy these cars and then drive for a year, and then sell for ~ what you originally paid to purchase

Not saying you can't, or haven't done this, but how many miles do you people drive? I guess maybe that's why an EV wouldn't work for me. I know the Leaf mileage restrictions are a non-starter for me. But buying a 3 year old used car, using it for a year and then getting close to what you purchased it for a year later? Not happening in my scenario. My wife and I are 15-20K miles plus per year.

If you drive less than that, get a bike ;)

errc says

f you’re a good horse trader, you can buy these cars and then drive for a year, and then sell for ~ what you originally paid to purchase

Except in fucking California you'll have to pay 10% of the price in tax every time you trade that horse. 10% of $20K car buys shitload of repairs. In high-tax states buying a decent out-of-lease car and keeping it until the wheels fall off is a better strategy, IMO.

Strategist says

2015 Mercedes electric drive (100%electric)

Just out of curiosity, why would you replace a Volt with another Volt, instead of a Bolt?

If the Mercedes is the little SUV, I would have to agree with you. My girlfriend's boss got one when she saw how happy we are with our Leafs, but being boss lady, she needed a Mercedes. Lovely lady by the way. I was very excited for her, I really liked the looks of it, but immediately noticed shorter range and no level 3 charging. She had many problems with hers, to the point Mercedes took it back. That was unfortunate that someone we know had a bad EV experience. Hopefully you have better luck.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Sorry, but "Leaf" and "cool" do not belong in the same sentence. It's an econobox, dorkmobile or whatever the proper derogatory term is for Corollas and Versas of this world.

While I agree with the part that 'cool' and 'Leaf' don't belong in the same sentence, I disagree with the second part. The Corolla is a decent car (no I don't own one) but the Versa is a case of 'you-need-a-car-badly-we've-got-a-bad-car-for-you'.

Strategist says

You should check out the latest model of the Leaf.

Not quite as bad as the earlier models but still no where close to being cool.

mmmarvel says

Versa is a case of 'you-need-a-car-badly-we've-got-a-bad-car-for-you'.

Yep, it's basically a Renault.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

mmmarvel says

Versa is a case of 'you-need-a-car-badly-we've-got-a-bad-car-for-you'.

Yep, it's basically a Renault.

As an owner of one currently, I'll disagree. One muffler, brakes, tires and regular oil changes. 175k miles. Most cars are only as good as the people that take care of them. Most people don't take care of them. That's any car. Given the price point, most Versa owners are admittedly deadbeats that needed a car and suck at life and maintaining a car. So it probably gets a bad reputation or you know bad people that are bad with cars (most people).

I'm not a big car guy (obviously), but outside of vintage or older model type cars, I can pretty much afford 99% of cars brand new, any make/model. It's really a simple math equation. Point A to point B as cheap as possible. You can get the nicer car with the taint massage feature, but the fact remains the same, A to B.

You also have to realize driving on the south side of Chicago, a Versa is way less likely to get me car jacked, shot, etc. I have other vehicles before you decide to torch me.

Malcolm says

Just out of curiosity, why would you replace a Volt with another Volt, instead of a Bolt?

My daughter has a 2017 Volt which she does not want. I will replace the 2015 Volt lease, and buy her car.
I also feel comfortable with the Volt not having range anxiety. 80% of the time I will using electricity only.

Strategist says

My daughter has a 2017 Volt which she does not want. I will replace the 2015 Volt lease, and buy her car.
I also feel comfortable with the Volt not having range anxiety. 80% of the time I will using electricity only.

With a >200 mile range EV, you shouldn't have any range anxiety. We go all over the place with our Leafs. It is almost never an issue with our limited range, especially when you have a routine. Malls, movie theaters, grocery stores, convenience stores.....they are putting in fast chargers. It is such a time saver to not have to go to get gas, you just charge up as part of your errand.

Malcolm says

Strategist says

My daughter has a 2017 Volt which she does not want. I will replace the 2015 Volt lease, and buy her car.
I also feel comfortable with the Volt not having range anxiety. 80% of the time I will using electricity only.

With a >200 mile range EV, you shouldn't have any range anxiety. We go all over the place with our Leafs. It is almost never an issue with our limited range, especially when you have a routine. Malls, movie theaters, grocery stores, convenience stores.....they are putting in fast chargers. It is such a time saver to not have to go to get gas, you just charge up as part of your errand.

Here is our vehicle strategy:
Prius Hybrid that my son still uses.
Chevy Volt Pug in hybrid that I will normally drive.
Tesla, cheap one, that my wife will drive.

This gives us the most economical strategy all things considered. Based on who drives where, when, and what distance.