patrick.net

me123 says

the smartest guy (according to you) on the site.

Where did I say that? I will go on the record as stating that you are the dumbest guy on this site.

me123 says

It's probably swamp land in Florida.

Once more you are wrong and clearly jealous.

Strategist says

The first piece of land sold, was stolen property, and as per law it still belongs to the original owner.

Yes, but just because that's the way things have been for the past ten thousand years does not mean we need to continue doing things the wrong way when there is a far better alternative that can easily be transitioned to and that would vastly improve our economic system in a many ways.

Strategist says

Even natural resources like oil, gold, copper etc belongs to every human being on the planet, who deserve to be paid every time something is extracted from THEIR LAND.

Exactly what Patrick and I have been saying for years. The wealth created by mining should be paid. The public wealth seized by mine owners who make shady deals with politicians to embezzle from the public should not be allowed. The people doing the business work like accounting, surveying, preparing documents, etc. should also be paid according to the work they create. Ownership of former public resources should not.

Strategist says

But we don't live in that kind of world.

Irrelevant. A mere 10 years ago we didn't live in a world with smartphones. A mere 20 years ago, few people had mobile phones. A mere 40 years ago, few people had computers. A mere 60 years ago, few people had televisions. A mere 80 years ago, few people had cars. A mere 100 years ago we had just invented flight.

Have you noticed a pattern? The world changes for the better. If we followed your philosophy, we would never make any progress. "We're not doing that now" is not an argument that we should not start doing that.

Strategist says

So I just go with the tide, buy residential parcels, and hope to get rich one day. I am just a selfish human being, like all normal human beings. You may call me a Capitalist Peeg.

If you are going to be greedy, at least be smart and greedy. You're line of thinking would have kept us literally in the Dark Ages where you would be a peasant. The entire reason Europe got out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance is because the peasants left alive after the Black Death had enough bargaining power over the owner class to demand higher wages. This created the economic boom that brought about every bit of wealth and opportunity you were born into.

Concentrating wealth, especially wealth obtained by zero-sum games and siphoning from other people's productivity, does not create new wealth and does not create a good economy. I really don't understand why this principle is so difficult for you to accept. You would be financially better off if everything I proposed was implemented.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

But we don't live in that kind of world.

Irrelevant. A mere 10 years ago we didn't live in a world with smartphones. A mere 20 years ago, few people had mobile phones. A mere 40 years ago, few people had computers. A mere 60 years ago, few people had televisions. A mere 80 years ago, few people had cars. A mere 100 years ago we had just invented flight.

Have you noticed a pattern? The world changes for the better. If we followed your philosophy, we would never make any progress. "We're not doing that now" is not an argument that we should not start doing that.

For that nirvana to happen we would need to:
1. Eliminate all kings dictators and non democracies.
2. Political borders would need to fall. Countries would cease to exist.
3. A philosophical change in thinking would need to occur.
All this could easily happen within 200 years, as the rate of change on this planet is accelerating at an accelerating rate.


Dan8267 says

If you are going to be greedy, at least be smart and greedy. You're line of thinking would have kept us literally in the Dark Ages where you would be a peasant. The entire reason Europe got out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance is because the peasants left alive after the Black Death had enough bargaining power over the owner class to demand higher wages. This created the economic boom that brought about every bit of wealth and opportunity you were born into.

I believe it was the industrial revolution in England that set off a sustained economic boom.



Dan8267 says

Concentrating wealth, especially wealth obtained by zero-sum games and siphoning from other people's productivity, does not create new wealth and does not create a good economy. I really don't understand why this principle is so difficult for you to accept. You would be financially better off if everything I proposed was implemented.

This is where I completely disagree. It's a form of communism, and does not help mankind. We need more and more technology, discoveries and inventions to better our lives, and only countries that practice capitalism have been able to deliver it.
Please refer to the 3 points I made above.

You know, this would be an interesting topic to discuss, sadly I leave very earl Monday morning, and return just in time for Halloween.

Dan - no worries on the trolls, but I'm still not understanding what motivation one would have to build structures to sell.

In your example a guy purchases land for 200k, adds 50k in improvements. And gets 250 back when he sells (the 10k excess price being taxed). I get that.

However I'm not understanding WHY he would do that? Say he spends 3 months building this house to sell, but his earnings during that time were $0. Why wouldn't he just work at McDonald's instead?

Because dan hates his job and realizes other people would not want to work there...

anonymous says

However I'm not understanding WHY he would do that? Say he spends 3 months building this house to sell, but his earnings during that time were $0. Why wouldn't he just work at McDonald's instead?

me123 says

Hey Dan, have you figured out yet how a building can appreciate? Since you own so much property, that question should be easy for you to answer

Why don't you tell us?

Strategist says

For that nirvana to happen we would need to:

Who's talking about Nirvana? I'm talking about a simple, direct improvement to the existing system that can be phased in gradually.

Strategist says

This is where I completely disagree. It's a form of communism

There is nothing remotely communistic about my plan. You clearly don't understand what communism is.

I'm proposing that we shift from taxing productivity to taxing consumption of scarce public resources. How the flying fuck is that communistic?

Strategist says

We need more and more technology, discoveries and inventions to better our lives, and only countries that practice capitalism have been able to deliver it.

Empirically false. The Soviet Union got to both space and the moon first. Today most things are made in China including all advancements in clean energy.

Strategist says

I believe it was the industrial revolution in England that set off a sustained economic boom.

The industrial revolution started around 1760. The Renaissance started in 1350, a few years after the Black Death. The industrial revolution did not take Europe out of the Dark Ages. The increase power of labor, peasants, after the Black Death did. This is well understood and accepted by historians.

https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_the_Bubonic_Plague_make_the_Italian_Renaissance_possible%3F

The social consequences of the plague on society came to be profound. The high mortality rate resulted in a drastic decline in the labour force.[7]. Wages rose for both agricultural and urban workers. The survivors of the Black Death generally had a higher standard of living than before the plague.[8] This was a phenomenon that occurred in both urban and rural areas. The crisis caused by the Black Death led to many changes in the economy, in response to the fall in the population. Because of the labour shortages there was a move from labour intensive farming such as cereal to livestock and increasingly both in industry and agriculture more labour saving devices employed.[9]

Where labor is cheap, life is cheap. Where wealth and power is concentrated into the hands of the few, the economy falters. Your inability to see this is due to thorough brainwashing during the Cold War. Well, the Cold War is over. It's time to think again.

anonymous says

Dan - no worries on the trolls, but I'm still not understanding what motivation one would have to build structures to sell.

My tax plan does not at all decrease the profitability of building. In fact, since land rather than buildings are taxed, by tax plan greatly incentives the most efficient use of land and disincentives hording land and letting it sit idle.

anonymous says

In your example a guy purchases land for 200k, adds 50k in improvements. And gets 250 back when he sells (the 10k excess price being taxed). I get that.

However I'm not understanding WHY he would do that? Say he spends 3 months building this house to sell, but his earnings during that time were $0. Why wouldn't he just work at McDonald's instead?

Buying a house just to flip it would no longer happen. When a person buys a house just to fix it up and then sell it, he is essentially performing a less efficient version of being hired by a homeowner to fix up a house. The contractor is speculating that he will pick the right amenities, the right kind of cabinet wood, the right kind of flooring that will appeal to buyers. This is guesswork which decreases the effeciency of the work, that is the value added for the time, material, and labor. it would be better if the person who will live in the house chooses mahogany or maple wood.

Under the existing system, such speculation would be less likely, but actual home owners would be more likely to hire contractors after they purchase a cheaper house and have money to hire such contractors. The overall wealth creation would be greater due to both less incorrect guessing and less profit taking from land. Such profit taking from land comes directly from the buyer who then has less wealth. It's a zero-sum game.

BlueSardine says

Because dan hates his job and realizes other people would not want to work there...

Actually, I love my job. I have an awesome career. You are simply jealous.

Furthermore, the messenger is irrelevant. You clearly cannot find any faults in my plan, so you are resorting to an ad hom attack, and a childish one at that.

joeyjojojunior says

me123 says

Hey Dan, have you figured out yet how a building can appreciate? Since you own so much property, that question should be easy for you to answer

Why don't you tell us?

He won't. Piggy is too much of a coward to answer the question.

The fact is that buildings don't do anything more as time goes on. Buildings only deteriorate. Sure, you can add a wing to a building, in which case that gets included in the cost basis, but buildings are most valuable when they are first built or refurbished, and only deteriorate. Like cars, buildings only depreciate. It is only the land that appreciates, and land only does this because the population has been increasing. If immigrants are kicked out like Trump says he'll do, then the population and land and real estate all fall together.

Everyone should take note that no one has yet made either an economic or moral argument in favor of individuals being able to hoard scarce public resources and profit from their sales at the expense of everyone else. The only argument in favor of such a system is "I personally will profit at your expense, so fuck you". The economy as a whole is far better with individuals obtaining wealth by being productive than by swindling others out of wealth. Zero sum games NEVER produce wealth by definition.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

We need more and more technology, discoveries and inventions to better our lives, and only countries that practice capitalism have been able to deliver it.

Empirically false. The Soviet Union got to both space and the moon first.

Reaching Space first with captured German scientists was probably their only achievement.

Dan8267 says

Today most things are made in China including all advancements in clean energy.

Most things are made in China because of cheap labor. To date, China has contributed very little to scientific progress. Nothing beats the scientific progress of the evil capitalist West.
Most scientific discoveries have been achieved in the biggest melting pot in the history of mankind.....good old USA. Imagine the achievements we could trigger if the whole world adopted our system.

Dan8267 says

Where labor is cheap, life is cheap. Where wealth and power is concentrated into the hands of the few, the economy falters. Your inability to see this is due to thorough brainwashing during the Cold War.

Hey, I agree. Examples of wealth and power concentrated in the hands of the few are kings, dictators, religious wackos, and communists. Not in democracies such as ours.
Why can't you see it?

Strategist says

Reaching Space first with captured German scientists was probably their only achievement.

America stole as much German tech and as many Nazi scientists. Are you saying that America did not earn it's place in history during the Space Age?

Strategist says

Most things are made in China because of cheap labor.

Which is a failure of capitalism. The bottom line is that the largest Communist country with the strongest Communist culture is kicking America's ass. This means your assertion is wrong.

Strategist says

To date, China has contributed very little to scientific progress.

Empirically false. You are simply sticking your head in the sand. China is rapidly owning all STEM and manufacturing infrastructure. It builds entire cities in less time it takes America to build a 9/11 memorial. It is at the forefront of many technological industries.

CNN: China is crushing the U.S. in renewable energy

The Guardian: China cementing global dominance of renewable energy and technology

CNBC: China emerging as a tech and innovation powerhouse

Tech World: Eight examples of high-tech innovation in China

Ignorance may be bliss, but it's also dangerous. You are letting your nationalism blind you to a very real economic and political threat to the U.S. Blind nationalism is stupid and dangerous.

Strategist says

Hey, I agree. Examples of wealth and power concentrated in the hands of the few are kings, dictators, religious wackos, and communists. Not in democracies such as ours.
Why can't you see it?

God, you are brainwashed.

First off, America is not and has never been a democracy. That is just factually wrong. There hasn't been a democracy on Earth since the ancient city-state of Rome degraded into a republic.

Second, political systems are not economic systems or vice versa. Democracy and capitalism have fucking nothing to do with each other.

Third, the tax proposal I made had nothing to do with kings, dictators, religious wackos, or communists.

Fourth, the current system concentrates wealth and power into the hands of the few. My proposed system does the exact opposite, allowing each individual to maximize his wealth by and only by maximizing his productivity.

joeyjojojunior says

me123 says

Hey Dan, have you figured out yet how a building can appreciate? Since you own so much property, that question should be easy for you to answer

Why don't you tell us?

CIC? Do you plan on answering this or are you going to run like your buddy Goran whenever anyone asks you a question?

Dan - I'm read your response but if we can carry your hypothetical to the end I think I would understand better.

So if our builder friend bought the land for 200k and spent 50k on building improvements (again new build- not flipping). If he sold for 3 months later for 260k, and the 10k gain was taxed at 100% (meaning he got his original 250k back) where is our builders profit?

anonymous says

Dan - I'm read your response but if we can carry your hypothetical to the end I think I would understand better.

So if our builder friend bought the land for 200k and spent 50k on building improvements (again new build- not flipping). If he sold for 3 months later for 260k, and the 10k gain was taxed at 100% (meaning he got his original 250k back) where is our builders profit?

I'm not sure what Dan meant, but it'd be pretty easy for the builder to charge his labor at $200/hour and really pad his hours (like a corporate lawyer) and he'd do fine.

anonymous says

Dan - I'm read your response but if we can carry your hypothetical to the end I think I would understand better.

So if our builder friend bought the land for 200k and spent 50k on building improvements (again new build- not flipping). If he sold for 3 months later for 260k, and the 10k gain was taxed at 100% (meaning he got his original 250k back) where is our builders profit?

The 50k of improvements added to the cost basis of the house includes payment of the labor of the builder. When a builder augments a house, whether it's a house he owns or someone else does, the cost of the augmentation includes parts and labor. The builder makes money, tax free, on his labor. He just does not make profit off the appreciation of the land.

That said, it would be more efficient for the builder to fix homes owned by other people using their preferences for flooring, cabinets, etc. than to speculate on what the market wants. The only reason the later is more common today is that it's a way to extract rising land values.

Your builder's livelihood is not harmed by my tax plan. In fact, his livelihood is improved since people who don't waste money on zero-sum land games have money to hire your builder. The more people have to spend on land due to hoarding, the less they have to spend on builders and all other services.

Eliminating zero-sum games maximizes the profitability of productivity. Where do you think all the wealth that goes to the winners of zero-sum games come from? It comes from other people's productivity. Wealth is created only by productivity.

Ok dan. Thanks

Joey jo jo

I'm not CIC but I have seen cases where buildings appreciate. In my neighborhood land records show in the 1900s row-houses sold for anywhere between $600 and $1,000

Today the old buildings are assessed for 200-400k. Granted many have been maintained/materials replaced.

That aside however, today I could pull up my antique hardwood floor and sell it for more than the entire house cost 117 years ago. I know this isn't the norm with most materials being replaced every 15-30 years, but allow it to sit long enough it may become an antique.

anonymous says

In my neighborhood land records show in the 1900s row-houses sold for anywhere between $600 and $1,000

Today the old buildings are assessed for 200-400k. Granted many have been maintained/materials replaced.

And the land under them has appreciated. That was Dan's point.

anonymous says

That aside however, today I could pull up my antique hardwood floor and sell it for more than the entire house cost 117 years ago. I know this isn't the norm with most materials being replaced every 15-30 years, but allow it to sit long enough it may become an antique.

Don't forget to inflation adjust them. Regardless, Dan is right that buildings depreciate and land appreciates.

me123 says

First, I didn't ask YOU the question, I already know your lack of knowledge of the housing market.

Second, I'll give you and Danny boy a hint, see if you can figure it out. Can you say "foreclosure"?

So, I'll take that to mean you can't. Otherwise you wouldn't play stupid games to pretend like you have a point.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Most things are made in China because of cheap labor.

Which is a failure of capitalism. The bottom line is that the largest Communist country with the strongest Communist culture is kicking America's ass. This means your assertion is wrong.

Wrong. China is proof positive of the success of capitalism. China started shooting up the moment they adopted capitalism in their economy. They now have well over a 100 billionaires. Think that's communism?

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

To date, China has contributed very little to scientific progress.

Empirically false. You are simply sticking your head in the sand. China is rapidly owning all STEM and manufacturing infrastructure. It builds entire cities in less time it takes America to build a 9/11 memorial. It is at the forefront of many technological industries.

Inventions, discoveries, and creativity is firmly in the hands of America. You just love to bash America don't you? Pathetic. You should be stripped of your citizenship and booted out.

me123 says

So, I'll take that even with the hint I gave you, you're still clueless. Why am I not surprised?

lol--You're obviously wrong and that's why you can't answer. Just admit it and we can move on.

Dan8267 says

Second, political systems are not economic systems or vice versa. Democracy and capitalism have fucking nothing to do with each other.

You need both for the kind of success America has achieved.

Dan8267 says

Your builder's livelihood is not harmed by my tax plan. In fact, his livelihood is improved since people who don't waste money on zero-sum land games have money to hire your builder. The more people have to spend on land due to hoarding, the less they have to spend on builders and all other services.

The livelihood of the whole country is destroyed by your tax plan. You need to stop dreaming.

Dan8267 says

Wealth is created only by productivity.

The credit for which goes to capitalism. e.g. Ford created the assembly line in his car factories.

Dan8267 says

He just does not make profit off the appreciation of the land.

Dan, If someone purchased a pice of land for $20K, and he is willing to sell, and I am willing to buy for $50K, why do you care?
What about a painting that sells for $10 million? Why do you care who pays what? Butt out of everyones affairs. Mind your own business.

me123 says

So, your assertion is that the land is what increased the value 55% and not the building in 5 months?

No, I'm assuming someone did work on it. And the cost basis went up.

me123 says

Wait, you've been saying all along in this thread that the building doesn't increase in value, only the land. Are you confused?

It didn't. Someone put money into it. That's not appreciation.

My lord. CIC, you really need to just go away and let the adults have a conversation.

joeyjojojunior says

me123 says

Wait, you've been saying all along in this thread that the building doesn't increase in value, only the land. Are you confused?

It didn't. Someone put money into it. That's not appreciation.

You and Dan need to learn about "price appreciation"
A painting that sells for $20 million, that cost the painter $10.00 to paint, is price appreciation. There was no gold added to it.
Aren't you and Dan glad there are Patnetters here who you can count on to educate you two?

me123 says

Funny how you type that same thing when you get your ass handed to you and proven wrong.

Because you don't understand the conversation and don't realize how much of an idiot you have become. You're like a fly buzzing around-it can't hurt anyone, but it's just annoying.

me123 says

Understanding Appreciation and Depreciation of Home Values

What Can Homeowners Do to Maximize Home Appreciation?

Another way to help a home appreciate is to make property improvements with lasting value. However, this doesn’t mean creating a Taj Mahal. It’s best to be the moderate home on the block, rather than the most or least expensive home. When choosing improvement projects, consider the value of homes in the neighborhood and plan upgrades that will fit in with the style and feel of the community.

Making upgrades to the property to bring the home in line with others in the neighborhood may increase its value faster than time and inflation alone. It does, of course, takes time and money to complete the necessary projects to boost appreciation.

Thanks for posting this. This is exactly what I was telling a friend recently.
If you have a $200,000 home and decide to make $100,000 of improvements, you will likely lose 80% of the improvement cost.
If you have a $2 million dollar home, and you want to improve it, it will probably pay to add $250,000 of improvements.
You need to keep up with the neighborhood, or else you will lose out.

Strategist says

Wrong. China is proof positive of the success of capitalism. China started shooting up the moment they adopted capitalism in their economy. They now have well over a 100 billionaires. Think that's communism?

China has a city entirely devoted to making buttons. And you don't think that's government centralized economic planning? You are so ignorant of the world.

The Chinese government builds entire cities from scratch. That's centralizing planing on a scale not ever even seen before.

The fact remains that your assertion that capitalism is the one and only way for an economy to be productive is outright false. Now you're redefining anything that succeeds as capitalism. This is completely dishonest.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

To date, China has contributed very little to scientific progress.

Empirically false. You are simply sticking your head in the sand. China is rapidly owning all STEM and manufacturing infrastructure. It builds entire cities in less time it takes America to build a 9/11 memorial. It is at the forefront of many technological industries.

Inventions, discoveries, and creativity is firmly in the hands of America. You just love to bash America don't you? Pathetic. You should be stripped of your citizenship and booted out.

I could say the same of you for whitewashing history and attacking your fellow Americans, and I could make a better case. Nonetheless, acknowledging that China has made rapid progress in science and technology is hardly bashing America. What does harm America is your brainwashed mentality that everything big business does is right and American can learn nothing from anyone else and nothing can be done to make America better. You do nothing but harm America. If anyone should be kicked out, it's you.

Strategist says

You need both for the kind of success America has achieved.

Empirically false. America is not a democracy. Therefore, democracy cannot be responsible for "the kind of success America has achieved". You really are an idiot, aren't you? You're not pretending to be a brain washed identity politics cold war moron. You really are one.

Here's a litmus test. A democracy, by definition, is a system of government in which people directly vote for the laws and policies, as oppose to a republic, which is an entirely different kind of government in which people elect politicians to create laws and govern. Is America a democracy? Hint: Fuck no, it's a republic. Prediction: You'll still get the question wrong even though I just gave you the answer.

Strategist says

The livelihood of the whole country is destroyed by your tax plan. You need to stop dreaming.

A baseless assertion. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Wealth is created only by productivity.

The credit for which goes to capitalism. e.g. Ford created the assembly line in his car factories.

There is nothing about an owner class siphoning the vast majority of labor's wealth creation that is necessary for prosperity. Nor does the tax reform I propose in any way change our economic system. You are now just making red herrings.

Strategist says

Dan, If someone purchased a pice of land for $20K, and he is willing to sell, and I am willing to buy for $50K, why do you care?

There is no legitimate "first owner" claim to land, a fixed public resource. Hoarding drives up the cost of land, the cost of living, and prevents people from spending their money on everything else. Allowing hoarding and zero-sum games interferes with the virtuous cycle of productivity and consumption which is responsible for all wealth creation and good economies. You are a fool if you cannot understand this. Even junior high students can understand this.

me123 says

joeyjojojunior says

And the land under them has appreciated. That was Dan's point.

No, Dan doesn't have a point, he's clueless, just like you.

So let's go over the things that piggy thinks.
1. All niggers are guilty of crimes for simply being niggers.
2. Climate change is a hoax perpetrated by hundreds of thousands of scientists around the world and every scientific organization as well as both NASA and the Pentagon. They are all in on it.
3. Obama was a secret Kenyan Muslim who wasn't born in the United States.
4. Land does not appreciate, buildings do.
5. Patrick is a dumb ass who can't code.
6. Goats are better than women for fucking.

Did I miss anything?

So why is he still on this site? Patrick should just nuke all his alts as soon as they are detected along with all their posts.

joeyjojojunior says

me123 says

Wait, you've been saying all along in this thread that the building doesn't increase in value, only the land. Are you confused?

It didn't. Someone put money into it. That's not appreciation.

Precisely. This is why cost basis are calculated in taxes on capital gains.

Dan8267 says

I could say the same of you for whitewashing history and attacking your fellow Americans, and I could make a better case. Nonetheless, acknowledging that China has made rapid progress in science and technology is hardly bashing America.

i have always given credit to China for embracing capitalism and progressing. Only those who accept capitalism have had sustained progress. it's very strange you have to use countries like China with their 100+ billionaires to even attempt to prove that communism is what caused their success. can you name any communist countries with any success? Go ahead I'm waiting.

Dan8267 says

5. Patrick is a dumb ass who can't code.
6. Goats are better than women for fucking.

Did I miss anything?

So why is he still on this site? Patrick should just nuke all his alts as soon as they are detected along with all their posts.

Stop sucking up to Patrick. It's disgusting.

Strategist says

Stop sucking up to Patrick. It's disgusting.

I'm not, you lying sack of shit. However, Patrick isn't an idiot who can't code his own site. He's been doing this for over a decade. So my objection to piggy's attack is quite valid.

me123 says

CHECKMATE.... Again

Only a child declares victory and runs away.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.