patrick.net

joshuatrio says

Zillow got brought into the equation, because your buddies claimed that Zillow showed only 2.2% appreciation. When in fact, certain pockets have had much higher appreciation. And no, nothing was wrong with my house. I live in a nice, suburban, well-kept neighborhood.

Atlanta's appreciation rate is 2.2% everywhere.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ga/atlanta/real-estate it's only 7.9% last year because it was depressed many years. over time it will be 2.2%.

joshuatrio says

I choose to live completely debt free.

and many people chose to make money long term leveraging, staying where they are, without having to move to a worse neighborhoods.

joshuatrio says

And you only qualify for a $1million dollar mortgage? LOL!!!!

and you only had $250K for a house? LOL!!! if i paid cash in Atlanta I would have been able to buy a much better house. i have looked at Atlanta market. $250K is rental home quality.

joshuatrio says

So now liberals are racist/stereotyping against blacks? Hahaha.

thanks for admitting that, TYPICALLY, only Trump supporters are racist against blacks.

A few years back I looked at moving to Atlanta. Company is based in Alpharetta/Roswell area, and it is very nice. It is a little colder in the winters and hotter/humid in the summers. But not bad. For me, the recreational options are just not as good. Yes - you have lake lanier. Yes - Savannah is a two our drive away (maybe a bit more). But, nothing like the sierras. Nothing like being 30 min from the ocean, etc.. That said, if I didn't have family in the bay area I probably would have moved because the COL is so much cheaper in ATL. The restaurants are good - maybe not SF quality- but good enough to satisfy most foodies. And, Caribbean food there is awesome.
But, don't tell me that traffic is any better there than in the bay area. It is not. There is are very few no-growth cities and so everyone is building and building without the infrastructure to support it. Plus, I worry that if I leave CA I won't be able to buy back in and I couldn't afford to buy in ATL and keep my place here (without pain). And, so, I guess I just think CA real estate is a better long term value, though time will tell on that.

BorderPatrol says

that's not how it works for housing. this is not individual stocks. i'm 100% certain you never looked at the graphs for Atlanta and LA. i would suggest doing researches before commenting. i have avoided responding to many of your lengthy posts on various topic for this reason. consider this the last one.

Cool. I'll consider it the last one.

That said it's not worth researching. I'm sure you get emails and cards from your local real estate broker letting you know real estate is local. How many sub-markets are there in LA/Orange County? A ton. Some good some bad. LA as a whole means nothing, and neither does ATL. So yeah, I'll just go research it, just like you researched ATL is not a good place to live with no evidence because you read it on the internet. As you'll see later in this post, there's reason to be skeptical of your claims.

BorderPatrol says

when one can turn $10K in to $160K over 5 years

Because this is what happens? On paper? Sure. When they took those gains and bought a boat or a 2nd house I'm sure they did just dandy. This, this is what happens with most equity. You do realize that, right? It ends up back in someone else's pocket 90% of the time. If you took your home equity and actually saved it, awesome. I don't begrudge anyone for taking gains. Everyone on the internet is always a winner, so I tend to be a bit skeptical.

BorderPatrol says

the point you are missing is why move to Atlanta when i already make comfortable money and can afford a house easily. that's what my post was responding to

If that's your point I don't get it. The OP has lived in both locations and was giving his perspective of BOTH locations that he HAS lived in. If you had actually lived in ATL, then your point would hold some value if you felt LA was better. As the conversation sits now, you haven't lived in ATL, so not sure how you can say one is better than the other having only lived in one.

BorderPatrol says

completely wrong. i only put down $10K. what tied up money are we talking about here? my housing expenses is $2440 and the rent is $2600. I am SAVING money by buying at the right time.

I asked a question, not sure what's wrong about the question I asked. It could be a bad questions I suppose, but never heard of a wrong question. I also don't care about rent vs. buy. So based on your payment, and down payment, it looks like you went with the $500k house. Congrats. You made the right choice.

Or did you buy something else? Not sure what type of loan product you got, seems like a very low down payment to me. Actually at 3.5% down FHA ($10k) that would be a $285k mortgage... in Orange County mind you. Good for you if you found a house that will go FHA for that price point in Orange County and then proceeded to have it appreciate $160k in 5 years without spending a dime on improvements for that appreciation. There is a lightening strike chance of this actually happening, but hey, people get struck by lightening. Maybe you meant $100k down?

BorderPatrol says

feel sorry for people who can afford to buy? LOL. well, i feel sorry for people who can't afford to buy and need to throw out a bunch of excuses to justify themselves.

Not sure I follow? $10k down is about as close to not being able to afford a home as I've heard. $10k down is 20% on a $50k loan which most lenders don't even dick around with unless it's a minority neighborhood to keep their shit in order. I know you said you won't respond anymore, but I'm not following. Some explanation would be appreciated on how you went about purchasing your home in one of the highest COLA's in the world with only $10k.

BorderPatrol says

people bragging about private schools, all cash purchase for a house. why is only my "bragging" in question? sounds like the bias is strong. one thing you don't realize, nobody believes me just like nobody believes someone had $250K in cash to buy a house, when they could have used it for a down payment in CA. you actually HELP proved my point.

I'm actually with you on this for the most part. You both kind of bragged. Kudos to catching yourself on it. No bias here. Modesty is the best policy if you ask me.

BorderPatrol says

then why are you even responding to my post? if i'm happy with what i'm doing?

Because he had commentary on two places he has ACTUALLY lived. You proceeded to bash ATL having not lived there. Not sure if I can make that much clearer. I love the LA area and all of southern CA from my visits and don't really know ATL. I can't comment intelligently on living in either location so I won't. That's basically the bottom line here. Be happy you even have the opportunity to live in America. It could be FAR worse for you.

I also think your $10k down and $160k appreciation in Orange County story has some holes. So there's that.

BorderPatrol says

and many people chose to make money long term leveraging, staying where they are, without having to move to a worse neighborhoods.

How do you even know what his neighborhood is like? This is starting to get a little nauseating.

BorderPatrol says

joshuatrio says

And you only qualify for a $1million dollar mortgage? LOL!!!!

and you only had $250K for a house? LOL!!! if i paid cash in Atlanta I would have been able to buy a much better house. i have looked at Atlanta market. $250K is rental home quality.

Not sure why things have to get so nasty. Live in the house you like. That goes for both you guys. The only thing I'll say is that the less you pay for a house in rent or mortgage, you'll likely do much better than your peers. If you want to spend $2M on a house and can do it, cool. If you can spend $2M on a house and only actually spend $100k on your purchase, cool. We all end up dead in the end, so not sure what the point is of measuring your dick when it comes to housing.

Because if you live in CA probably 45% of you identity is what kind of housing you can afford and another 45% is what tech company you work at and every conversation devolves into 1 of these two topics.

It’s exhausting. I love living in a state where people just buy a house to live in and don’t constantly have to talk about it.

Also, this was a fun thread making fun of how crappy CA is until you CA people showed up and ruined it as usual.

Living anywhere else in the USA but coastal CA or NYC is a career failure!

joshuatrio says

It gets old paying $25-36,000 in rent for a DUMP (where we were in CA)

Meh - keep in mind our host has been doing just this for two plus decades now...

Is he still doing that? Jeez, I feel bad. Patrick, save yourself! Get out while you still can!

NewGuy says

Is he still doing that? Jeez, I feel bad. Patrick, save yourself! Get out while you still can!

He's doing what works for him. Don't feel bad. I know you're talking more about location then owning or renting, or so I believe. This is the gist of my prior comments. If Patrick digs his location and lifestyle, not really anyone else's place to tell him it's right or wrong. Not saying you're doing this, but this exact thread kind of went that way. If people are happy, who really cares? People will be happy in SFBA, LA, NYC, KC, OKC or ATL. This will ALWAYS be the case.

Would I personally like warmer weather where I'm at right now? Sure. But my current life situation and family circumstances are better than 98% of the average American in the US. I could bitch about my minor inconveniences or just embrace that 99.9999999999999% of the worlds population has it no where close to as good as I do. Have fun. Love life. It's not forever.

NewGuy says

Also, this was a fun thread making fun of how crappy CA is until you CA people showed up and ruined it as usual.

Hey, that's what we do! Day isn't complete unless you've made somebody else's life even a bit more miserable, it's the California way.

Where do 10 dislikes come from for a topic like this? I think someone has too many anon accounts and too much time on their hands.

WookieMan says

That said it's not worth researching.

precisely why some don't care to respond. because it's not worth their time.

NewGuy says

Because if you live in CA probably 45% of you identity is what kind of housing you can afford and another 45% is what tech company you work at and every conversation devolves into 1 of these two topics.

quite a grotesque stereotype of Californians and it smells like jealousy.

BorderPatrol says

WookieMan says

That said it's not worth researching.

precisely why some don't care to respond. because it's not worth their time.

Cool.

BorderPatrol says

because it's not worth their time.

I missed this the first time around. You do see the hypocrisy in this statement, right?

Since @BorderPatrol won't do it. Can someone explain how you can purchase a home with $10k down in one of the highest COLA's in the world? Simple stuff. Should I ask Logan on this one? Or should common sense overcome a lie?

I lived there 10 years. Bought a nice house in San Mateo. Was so glad when my transfer got approved. Now I live in a much nicer house, in a much nicer area and am much happier. No jealousy here friend.

I do have to say, it is certainly true that different people like different things. I am sure there are some people that might actually like CA.

But I also know numerous people that have left the state like myself and are happier. I guess if anything I’m mad that California especially the Bay Area became what it is, because there is a lot to like about it, but a lot has been ruined.

When housing costs ridiculous and you have to send your kids to private school and taxes are out of control yet you don’t see much benefit and you feel intimidated to even mention such wild conservative ideas like “maybe we shouldn’t let homeless people shit on the street” (non CA people are going to find this hard to believe but I literally had arguments with multiple people for voicing such a hateful opinion)... It just got old for me, especially once I had kids.

But yeah, the weather is okay, and I miss the burritos. Also it was cool being the first to get the latest tech. You also felt kind of plugged into something special being around so many smart engineers. Now all my neighbors are doctors and lawyers and over all I prefer this mix but they don’t know how to configure their routers and you can’t talk to them about the Meltdown vulnerability. Yet I am like a tech god to them.

I think it’s all the smart people and that feeling that you’re in the middle of something important that keeps people there. But it wasn’t enough for me anymore.

I don’t think the Bay Area will get back to what it was. I don’t think the new people there even know it used to be better. They just live with their roommates and work in their shared workspaces and hope they can save up enough to put a down payment on a house in Gillroy. But that’s good enough for some I guess.

For whatever it is worth:
https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/best-places-to-live
Though, honestly, I don't see how Milwaukee ranks higher than ATL. That seems wrong...

Probably why some of the cities in the bay area ranked so high is because of the job engine here. I didn't look too closely at how they ranked by each sub-category.

krc says

And, so, I guess I just think CA real estate is a better long term value, though time will tell on that.

CA certainly is a much better purchase long term. even Los Angeles gains 5.8% a year (https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/los-angeles/real-estate). buying in places like Atlanta may sound like a good idea now, because the numbers "make sense." but in 20-30 years from now everyone will wish they bought in CA. in 30 years a $500K house in LA will be worth $2.7M and the same house in Atlanta will be worth $960K. the total property taxes paid in CA will be much less as well if prop 13 remains.

krc says

For whatever it is worth:
https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/best-places-to-live
Though, honestly, I don't see how Milwaukee ranks higher than ATL. That seems wrong...

Probably why some of the cities in the bay area ranked so high is because of the job engine here. I didn't look too closely at how they ranked by each sub-category.

interesting list although I think LA should be a lot higher in the ranking. people always say where they live is the best due to various intangible, emotional, unmeasurable factors. well the only thing that's measurable is appreciation or rate of return for your money and CA wins hands down!

BorderPatrol says

NewGuy says

Because if you live in CA probably 45% of you identity is what kind of housing you can afford and another 45% is what tech company you work at and every conversation devolves into 1 of these two topics.

quite a grotesque stereotype of Californians and it smells like jealousy.

Have you lived anywhere else besides CA? If not, you should probably stop commenting on how people feel after they have moved. You do realize your are telling someone else that their own feelings, opinions & experiences are wrong? NewGuy & Joshuatrio have ACTUALLY lived in different places. While anecdotal, their opinion holds more weight than someone that has only lived in CA. This is what we would call a bias.

And you're of course free to hold your biased opinion. Just understand that people won't take you seriously in the future.

I'm also still waiting on how this

WookieMan says

I also think your $10k down and $160k appreciation in Orange County story has some holes. So there's that.

is possible. I know it's hard to read longer comments and I apologize for my style of writing being long winded. But I did post a shorter comment above on it's own with the same question. If you made up that you bought a $285k house in the LA area that's fine, I don't care honestly. I just want to know if there are deals I'm missing out on. I'd be in CA in flash for that price if it's a neighborhood that's even remotely worth living in with the income my wife and I could make out there.

Obviously that list is nonsense because many CA cities are at the top. This cannot be.

The correct one should have the lowest home prices on top, other factors don’t matter.

krc says

For whatever it is worth:
https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/best-places-to-live
Though, honestly, I don't see how Milwaukee ranks higher than ATL. That seems wrong...

Probably why some of the cities in the bay area ranked so high is because of the job engine here. I didn't look too closely at how they ranked by each sub-category.

BorderPatrol says

CA certainly is a much better purchase long term. even Los Angeles gains 5.8% a year (https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/los-angeles/real-estate). buying in places like Atlanta may sound like a good idea now, because the numbers "make sense." but in 20-30 years from now everyone will wish they bought in CA. in 30 years a $500K house in LA will be worth $2.7M and the same house in Atlanta will be worth $960K. the total property taxes paid in CA will be much less as well if prop 13 remains.

Just living in CA for a long time, I can tell you that it doesn't work out quite like that. Those who truly cashed out are the once who bought before the housing prices speculation that occurred Clinton/Bush. Left the state to retire in cheaper CoL states. Now everything has appreciation priced in, and since property taxes are no longer a write off, you can imagine it's going to make buying in CA a bad proposition.

I know people who bought at high prices, many of them already foreclosed and moved out of state. It's hard to pay your entire salary into mortgage for 30 years consistently. Rest are holding on to it begrudgingly. Only few made it ok, that's the people who simply made a lot more money to afford their gamble. Very few happy people in that group, they paid too much and stretched themselves thin.

Just sharing what I see, I'm sure not everyone has the same perspective.

BorderPatrol says

i only put down $10K. what tied up money are we talking about here? my housing expenses is $2440

Based on CA home prices, that sounds like a very nice double wide that you own. What does the mobile home park charge for monthly HOA fees, or is that included in the $2440?

I told my wife I won't spend $350k on a South Florida house, because the price is all baked in and the chances of a huge tech boom employing tens of thousands and running up demand so that a modest 60s/70s home goes up to $700k in the next decade or so are minimal. Unlike California which has the open space and 'low density' scams in play by the powers-that-be, Floridian developers are trying to knock out the Sugar Industry to build more, more, more, and tall condos are the order of the day.

Thinking about buying studios on the water more up the coast in beachfront buildings. .

Plus, you can actually swim in the water.

FortWayne says

Just sharing what I see, I'm sure not everyone has the same perspective.

FortWayne, since you're in the area, have you seen a move in ready house (zero deferred maintenance and can pass an FHA appraisal/inspection) for $285k anywhere around you in the last 5 years? A claim has been made here that $10k was put up as a down payment and six figures of equity was generated from that in 5 years. FHA loans are basically the lowest down payment unless one is a veteran, but $10k down at 3.5% would be $285k purchase price.

Can't say I've heard of that in recent times in the LA area, but I'm in Chicago and don't actively look all that often. Maybe during the crash I suppose in a crappy area. But definitely not now in a neighborhood or house worth living in. Who knows, I don't know the area so maybe it's a possibility.

Apparently my writing here is too long, so I'm not getting a response from the person that made this claim. So figured I'd ask you if you had seen a deal like that.

Plus I just looked up above at the quote from an anon in comment 103 with the $2,440 housing expense claim (forgot about that part), on a $285k FHA loan from 5 years ago (this is the only way you can put down only $10k on a home purchase pretty much). He must have had really bad credit or something and got hit with a high rate. My payment calculations based off the down payment amount and about the only loan you could get for that amount down put it at about $1,600-$1,700/mo with $2k annual of prop. taxes and $750 for insurance and $118/mo for FHA PMI.

Takes about 9-10% interest rate to hit that monthly payment number of $2,440. Needless to say, FHA rates weren't at that level 5 years ago. I know this was another long one, but the ship has sank and I now fully understand the non-response. It was made up. It's okay to own being wrong, people won't think less of you. I just don't get the point of the story in the first place. I'm not sure what was gained.

What's old is new again. I remember the same claims in Cali in the 90's. Then, prices crashed. In upper middle class neighborhoods in the Tri Valley, houses would stay on the market for more than two years without selling. Those houses now sell off the blocks, often for cash, right away.

Double wide haul-out old trailers in trailer parks, and even some single wides, are going for $285K in Santa Cruz right now. You can't even get anything in Tracy anymore for less than 360k to 400k for over 1500 sq. ft.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

I told my wife I won't spend $350k on a South Florida house, because the price is all baked in and the chances of a huge tech boom employing tens of thousands and running up demand so that a modest 60s/70s home goes up to $700k in the next decade or so are minimal. Unlike California which has the open space and 'low density' scams in play by the powers-that-be, Floridian developers are trying to knock out the Sugar Industry to build more, more, more, and tall condos are the order of the day.

Thinking about buying studios on the water more up the coast in beachfront buildings. .

Plus, you can actually swim in the water.

Approaching 70k med card apps with 45k cards already printed

Dilly dilly

SF Bay Area is not a shithole. It’s beautiful.

But if you don’t make at least $250K and most likelly much more, you’ll live in a shithole. Your kids will go to shitty schools, you’ll be constantly strapped on time, you’ll face lot of crime.

So yes - shithole. I’m slowly working to get out of here.

Ironworker says

But if you don’t make at least $250K

=> career failure

FortWayne says

Very few happy people in that group, they paid too much and stretched themselves thin.

I know lots of people in the Bay Area who overpaid and got burned, including two families with kids, bankrupted by their mortgage and had to move.

Looking forward to seeing the new limitations on mortgage interest deduction bring prices more into range for ordinary people with savings.

Patrick says

FortWayne says

Very few happy people in that group, they paid too much and stretched themselves thin.

I know lots of people in the Bay Area who overpaid and got burned, including two families with kids, bankrupted by their mortgage and had to move.

Looking forward to seeing the new limitations on mortgage interest deduction bring prices more into range for ordinary people with savings.

In theory it should. But I see no sign of it yet here on the Peninsula.

A few people on this thread have made comments about the housing appreciation in the Bay Area being a good thing and a good reason to invest in housing there and the lack of housing appreciation in other places a bad thing.

The price of housing is either governed by fundamentals (the rent it generates, the value of the shelter it provides) or it is governed by expectations of future value gains.

The second way of thinking is a bubble mentality. I’m surprised so many people have fallen for this again so soon after the last crash. Be careful. There’s only so much people can afford to pay for your house, don’t be left holding the bag.

FortWayne says

Just living in CA for a long time, I can tell you that it doesn't work out quite like that. Those who truly cashed out are the once who bought before the housing prices speculation that occurred Clinton/Bush. Left the state to retire in cheaper CoL states. Now everything has appreciation priced in, and since property taxes are no longer a write off, you can imagine it's going to make buying in CA a bad proposition.

that is the average appreciation rate since 2000. it has been that way for a while.

the change on SALT deductions affect all states not just CA. GA income tax rate is 6%, a mere 3.3% lower than CA, it will have the exact same impact for every home buyer.

if CA home prices go down because of this tax bill, so will GA's and most states'.

Ironworker says

But if you don’t make at least $250K and most likelly much more, you’ll live in a shithole. Your kids will go to shitty schools, you’ll be constantly strapped on time, you’ll face lot of crime.

i'd agree with this more than "CA sucks - some other place is better." it all comes down to cost of living. i'm pretty sure somewhere else someone is complaining the same things about GA or SC saying this place sucks because cost of living is too high. look at all the things i can buy after moving!!! I'm moving to a cheaper state.

Ironworker says

SF Bay Area is not a shithole. It’s beautiful.

But if you don’t make at least $250K and most likelly much more, you’ll live in a shithole. Your kids will go to shitty schools, you’ll be constantly strapped on time, you’ll face lot of crime.

So yes - shithole. I’m slowly working to get out of here.

Yes, you are mostly right.

$250k household income is probably where you can start to have an average standard of living (by national standards) in the Bay Area. And yes, I stress “start”

God forbid you make $250k/yr but you have no cash in the bank. You might never make enough for a down payment with the rent you will be dishing out and the extreme cost of living.

I have countless friends and acquaintances where both the husband and wife are professionals commanding 6-figures and they can’t seem to get any traction here.

I also have a couple friends that don’t make shit (but got in the real estate door in 2009-2011) and are crushing it... 7-fig equity in San Carlos if you can believe that!

BorderPatrol says

FortWayne says

Just living in CA for a long time, I can tell you that it doesn't work out quite like that. Those who truly cashed out are the once who bought before the housing prices speculation that occurred Clinton/Bush. Left the state to retire in cheaper CoL states. Now everything has appreciation priced in, and since property taxes are no longer a write off, you can imagine it's going to make buying in CA a bad proposition.

that is the average appreciation rate since 2000. it has been that way for a while.

the change on SALT deductions affect all states not just CA. GA income tax rate is 6%, a mere 3.3% lower than CA, it will have the exact same impact for every home buyer.

if CA home prices go down because of this tax bill, so will GA's.

Not necessarily because the real estate portion of the bill has the biggest effect on expensive houses in metropolitan cities within blue states.

BayArea says

Not necessarily because the real estate portion of the bill has the biggest effect on expensive houses in metropolitan cities within blue states.

nope it will affect most states. a family doesn't need to make much to begin being affected by this tax bill.

anon_26e00 says

Based on CA home prices, that sounds like a very nice double wide that you own. What does the mobile home park charge for monthly HOA fees, or is that included in the $2440?

you definitely know a lot more about mobile homes than I do. but i'll tell you this home was a brand new townhouse in a middle class gated community. it pays to buy and refi at the right times.

i'm never jealous of people who do better than me and i'm flattered when it is the reversed.

BorderPatrol says

BayArea says

Not necessarily because the real estate portion of the bill has the biggest effect on expensive houses in metropolitan cities within blue states.

nope it will affect most states. a family doesn't need to make much to begin being affected by this tax bill.

Out of the gate it has ZERO impact on 18% (9 states...) of the states with no income tax. So 1 in 5 with almost 99% certainty will not feel the new SALT limits. The 1% in those states probably will because they have nice houses and maybe hit the cap of $10k in higher property tax states or regions.

Let's just round up the median family income in the country to $60k. CA has the highest TOP marginal bracket at 13%. Let's even say the median family will be taxed at that amount. That's $7,800 in taxes, at the TOP bracket. They won't be taxed that amount since it's tiered based on income. The cap is $10k. Well over 50% of families and individual income earners won't even come close to touching the $10k SALT cap on state income taxes. It simply doesn't affect MOST states. It affects maybe 3-4 states and specifically maybe 6-10 regions.

Here's the link showing the HIGHEST marginal state income tax bracket. https://taxfoundation.org/state-individual-income-tax-rates-and-brackets-2016/

The claim that it will affect most states is completely inaccurate.

BorderPatrol says

the change on SALT deductions affect all states not just CA. GA income tax rate is 6%,

BorderPatrol says

nope it will affect most states.

Wrong again.

A nice 3/2 house in GA can be bought for $250K and it has a $1800 tax bill. The income needed to afford that mortgage is WELL lower than the $250K salary needed in your backyard for the same sized $800K CA house.

So between the lower state income tax on lower salary and the lower property tax, these people will be well BELOW the $10K ceiling on the new tax plan.

To keep saying it will affect most states is dishonest.

BorderPatrol says

i'm never jealous of people who do better than me

Like the OP of this thread?