patrick.net

tatupu70 says

You're missing the point. I haven't been trained as a cop.

Oh, the fact that you have no clue about the shit you're trying to proselytize about is painfully apparent.

tatupu70 says

: But, just for you, here are some links:

Fuck links. Tell in your own words how you propose to "diffuse" a guy suddenly charging to punch/stab you from 20-30 ft while you're sitting in the car at a red light.

tatupu70 says

Lollipops are more powerful than guns.

So you'd offer him a lollipop? That would make him go from full attack to BFF in 3 sec, guaranteed. LOL.

Straw Man says

PS. I'll address "roll up defense" after I get an exhaustive list of your "diffusion remedies" for a situation when someone rushes to punch or stab you from 20-30ft while you're sitting in the car.

tatupu70 says

I'm waiting with bated breath.

Any police officer (and CCW holder) is aware of Tueller Drill:

"The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being accused of murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat."

So, I went into garage and timed how long it takes to raise driver window on two of my cars.

For the first one - a newish sedan - it took slightly more than 4 sec (in auto mode). At 2 sec mark the opening was plenty wide enough to throw a series of successful punches. At 3 sec mark it becomes more difficult but still plenty doable, especially with a knife.

Then I timed an older convertible. For that one it took 6.5 sec to close the window completely (no auto mode, so I had to keep pressing the button). Since the window is much narrower in that car, I would say that the driver would be in relative safety at about 4 sec mark.

Now, back to our video: the driver obviously doesn't have the luxury of 3-4 seconds (+ reaction time) it would take to notice the attacker and roll up the window high enough to somewhat mitigate the threat. He reacted to the attacker in 21ft zone as he was trained to (and in only realistic way).

You with your lollipops would probably be brain-dead from the punches. But it's OK, not much difference anyway.

Straw Man says

Oh, the fact that you have no clue about the shit you're trying to proselytize about is painfully apparent.

I have no clue about what? That cops should be trained to defuse situations without resorting to shooting unarmed civilians? No, I'm pretty sure I do have a clue about that.

Straw Man says

Fuck links. Tell in your own words how you propose to "diffuse" a guy suddenly charging to punch/stab you from 20-30 ft while you're sitting in the car at a red light.

Let me rephrase that for you. "I don't want to read things that might disagree with my viewpoint."

Straw Man says

So you'd offer him a lollipop? That would make him go from full attack to BFF in 3 sec, guaranteed. LOL.

Yes, that's exactly right. That was clearly the point of that link.

Straw Man says

Any police officer (and CCW holder) is aware of Tueller Drill:

Great-so your plan is to shoot anyone with 21 feet that might be violent?

Straw Man says

So, I went into garage and timed how long it takes to raise driver window on two of my cars.

For the first one - a newish sedan - it took slightly more than 4 sec (in auto mode). At 2 sec mark the opening was plenty wide enough to throw a series of successful punches. At 3 sec mark it becomes more difficult but still plenty doable, especially with a knife.

Then I timed an older convertible. For that one it took 6.5 sec to close the window completely (no auto mode, so I had to keep pressing the button). Since the window is much narrower in that car, I would say that the driver would be in relative safety at about 4 sec mark.

Now, back to our video: the driver obviously doesn't have the luxury of 3-4 seconds (+ reaction time) it would take to notice the attacker and roll up the window high enough to somewhat mitigate the threat. He reacted to the attacker in 21ft zone as he was trained to (and in only realistic way).

Why doesn't he? Is the cop utterly defenseless without pulling his gun? Does he know any self defense skills? wtf--they teach 40 year old women joggers basic self defense. This guy can't do anything without pulling his gun?

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

Ha ha ha. Since when is getting punched by a maniac "touching your shoulder"

I repeat....Society is better off with this criminal being dead.

Do you think he was justifiably in fear for his life?

Absolutely, don't be obtuse. A thug suddenly shows up at your car door during running traffic and starts punching you, fuck yeah you should fear for your life, there's plenty of other things that can go wrong in traffic besides him delivering a blow that may have lasting effects. Absolutely justified, no doubt whatsoever.

mell says

Absolutely, don't be obtuse

He didn't suddenly show up. There was obviously a run-up to the incident.

But regardless, when is a shooting not justified in your mind. Keeping in mind Tueller's Drill--anyone within 21 feet is a potential killer. Running at you aggressively? Is that justification? Sneaking up on you from behind? A shove in the back followed by cocking ones arm? What's your criteria?

And, fyi--you don't get to shoot someone because "things might go wrong"

Remember, turnabout is fair play.

You sissy fuck nerds cowering in the corner hoping that a cop will come and let you blow him, are making the case that everytime a person comes in earshot of a cop, that they should justifiably shoot said cop, to kill. Because fear

errc says

Remember, turnabout is fair play.

You sissy fuck nerds cowering in the corner hoping that a cop will come and let you blow him, are making the case that everytime a person comes in earshot of a cop, that they should justifiably shoot said cop, to kill. Because fear

Cops cannot operate this way, they may have older officers or females and they don't have the luxury to assess whether they are up for "eye for an eye". You could argue that they should carry tasers and use those first, but the moment somebody steps out, walks over to a car and starts beating the person inside that person has every right to defend themselves, by any means, which includes lethal force, cop or not. Also your point about shooting a cop because fear is not valid IMO because you can predict that if you act in a most complying way the cops will never harm or shoot you, because they have their orders. You can still file charges later and try pressing charges and prosecute the cop if they treated you unfairly. With so few exceptions that they are not worth talking about you do not have to fear for your life when you encounter a cop. You may be harassed and they may be abusing their authority, but they will not shoot you. There is a way of being critical of the police state and militarization of cops and at the same time review most of these cases being brought up and conclude clearly that the person brought that onto themselves. On the rare occasion of an encounter with the cops I show my hands at all times and indicate when I am reaching for the glove compartment to get my license and registration, and I don't tell them to fuck off. I also felt harassed once or twice without reason but it wasn't worth getting shot, it pretty much never is. How hard is that to understand and follow, and not get shot? Don't let your ego get in the way, you may have family to care for and you're no good to them dead.

tatupu70 says

He didn't suddenly show up. There was obviously a run-up to the incident.

But regardless, when is a shooting not justified in your mind. Keeping in mind Tueller's Drill--anyone within 21 feet is a potential killer. Running at you aggressively? Is that justification? Sneaking up on you from behind? A shove in the back followed by cocking ones arm? What's your criteria?

And, fyi--you don't get to shoot someone because "things might go wrong"

I'm a pretty strong guy and somewhat self-defense trained but I would never pick a fight unless absolutely necessary. The moment this guy started beating the cop the shooting was justified, period. Again, you could argue for taser use instead, but questionable if you can make that decision in that situation and if you have one at hand. It could have been a female or older officer or he could have simply felt completely overpowered by the assailant. If you do decide to fight for whatever reason and it's not among friends and you cannot determine whether the person is armed, on drugs or otherwise determined to badly harm you, then assume the worst and fight as if your life is at stake, it may very well be.

Ironman says

tatupu70 says

Straw Man says

So you'd offer him a lollipop? That would make him go from full attack to BFF in 3 sec, guaranteed. LOL.

Yes, that's exactly right.

This comment by Tatty has to be repeated, it's so fucking clueless, words can't describe it...

So Tatty thinks at Midnight in Brooklyn when a unknown guy charges your car and your window is open, all you need to do is offer him a lollipop and he'll calm down....

Un-Fucking-Believable..

If Tatu was a cop he would be dead.

I used to keep a set of Groucho Marx funny face/ glasses in my car to diffuse road rage situations. Using humor or doing something unexpected is pretty effective at calming someone down.
You really can't tell how upset that guy was or wasn't. He didn't seem to be moving that fast to me though. It looked like he walked up to the window, and was shot pretty soon after. Did the guy land a good punch? It's not clear at all why he was shot.

Strategist says

This comment by Tatty has to be repeated, it's so fucking clueless, words can't describe it...

So Tatty thinks at Midnight in Brooklyn when a unknown guy charges your car and your window is open, all you need to do is offer him a lollipop and he'll calm down....

Un-Fucking-Believable..

If Tatu was a cop he would be dead.

Wow--Add inability to understand sarcasm to the list of Ironman's deficiencies.