patrick.net

YesYNot says

The dietary guidelines and especially the McGovern report did not advocate eating more sugar or inventing (in the lab) and eating large quantities of trans fat (partially hydrogenated oils). In fact, the pyramid puts sugar and oil at the very top, with the admonishment to use sparingly. Nobody did that. The McGovern report linked too much fat, sugar, and salt to heart disease, cancer, obesity, and stroke. Nothing has changed. These are still the culprits.

Yes, this is correct. I suspect the sugar and trans (but not all) fats are the main culprit.

thunderlips11 says

Warfarin (SP?), Statins

A 2011 study published in NEJM reported that Warfarin caused 1/3 of emergency hospitalizations in people over 65. Statins vary, for example in clinical studies, "Vytorin failed to show much effect."

Your graph showed several causes of death by disease type, including especially "Diseases of the circulatory system." I would not attribute the change during the period primarily to drugs, however, because the reduction in smoking had probably a larger effect. NIcotine is a vasoconstrictor, and smoking can cause hypertension, stroke, and cardiac arrest; a third of all smokers die from smoking related causes, with the obvious respiratory diseases accounting for only a subset of that total.

Really, the best way for adults to increase their life expectancy is to refrain from killing themselves: don't smoke, don't drink too much alcohol, don't become morbidly obese, avoid "trans fats" (hydrogenated oils as you and YesYNot mentioned); eat reasonable quantities of healthy food and get some exercise.

thunderlips11 says

sugar and trans (but not all) fats are the main culprit.

I think so too. Salt is consumed almost exclusively as a condiment or seasoning, so the effect of sodium depends probably on what it is eaten with, e.g. trans fats. Likewise fat includes a range of products from cold pressed olive oil (good) to subsidized hydrogenated corn oil (bad). As is often the case, the subsidized and advertised product is the worst:

www.youtube.com/embed/cuOlD0JZhM4

curious2 says

NIcotine is a vasoconstrictor, and smoking can cause hypertension, stroke, and cardiac arrest; a third of all smokers die from smoking related causes, with the obvious respiratory diseases accounting for only a subset of that total.

Good catch.

In my limited experience, Warfarin needs to be monitored and adjusted regularly. It's easy to see how it can cause hospitalization when the dosage isn't adjusted frequently. Once a year doesn't cut it, and twice a year is probably inadequate for the very aged/sick.

God I hate US Hospitals and the Medical Industry. It's medicine by numbers, at a much higher cost.

Oh and speaking of Maize, Here is a fun link for you:
http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/the-tragic-legacy-of-center-for-science-in-the-public-interest-cspi/

The reason salt is important is that it is used to make you eat more. Salt, oil, and sugar have bliss points. Put the right amount in food, and it releases dopamine when you eat it. So, people do experiments on just the right amount of oil and salt to add to chips and fries to make you eat as many as possible. That's why you can eat a shitty vegan diet. Chips and soda are vegan, and people just keep jamming it in their faces. No one is getting fat on plain potatoes.

Here's what I think is a good article on the the relative 'goodness' of saturated fat, trans fat, sugar, pufas, and low fat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-katz-md/truth-about-saturated-fat_b_9427698.html

It's carbs, and simple carbs. I did the South Beach Diet once, and lost a ton of weight. The diet is hardcore, but illustrates that decreasing carb intake results in weight loss. I was not exercising at the time. I have put on weight during periods of routine exercise, and now when I want to lose weight, I decrease my carb intake in a less rigorous way than the South Beach. I eat well - lots of cheese, meat, and lots of veggies. And I lose weight.

Wrt diabetes (and obesity) it's clear. Low carb, high fat, moderate protein will almost guarantee you not getting diabetes, and you can even reverse it in many cases. If you have the grits to work out hard, then increase protein accordingly which is excellent for weight loss. That this is still debated is ridiculous. If Americans would suddenly switch to avoiding carbs (esp. fast carbs) at all cost, diabetes would likely become insignificant. Don't get me wrong, almost everybody loves some kind of carbs, but the science is clear.

mell says

Don't get me wrong, almost everybody loves some kind of carbs, but the science is clear.

The vast majority of respected nutrition researchers disagree with your conclusions.

Ironman says

The number of adults estimated to be living with diabetes surged to 422 million by 2014, a nearly four-fold increase on 1980 figures,

This is as global meat, dairy, oil, and processed carb production per capita has increased and whole plant food consumption has decreased.

Eating large quantities of tasty bad food is pleasurable. And as folks have pointed out, companies research products that hit the sweet spot, which takes salt, sugar, fat and carbs. Depending on what type of fat, the fat and salt won't hurt you unless you have a BP issue. The sugar and carbs will hurt you. If you can get pleasure out of eating better foods, for example, salad as a meal without a toxic dressing, you can pig out and not put on weight.

The vast majority of respected nutrition researchers disagree with your conclusions.

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Not sure why you feel the need to lie. Nobody with a brain respects researchers who are married to bad science.

The biggest reason, most of us don't eat real food anymore. Since when do dyes and chemicals constitute a meal? It's cheap, and there's quantity, but there's no quality, no nutrition. So we eat, still feel hungry because we got nothing of value, eat again, and again... You don't have to be a pot bellied African to be malnourished.
A related outcome of this is we end up with a high amount of toxins in our body. How does the body control toxins so they don't rage through our system unchecked and kill us? Fat. Fat cells are used to trap the toxins until such time as they can be released through exercise or other detox practices. And lastly, we eat an inordinate amount of meat product, and empty processed carbs(not to be confused with highly valueable complex carbs), instead of fruits and veggies.

Oh yeah, and we've replaced discipline with hedonism, but fat and happy are not synonymous...

Do people really eat that much meat? The butcher never has a line, and the shelves are always stocked of meat.

I think most people fill their carts with shit that doesn't take much of any preparation. Cereal, bread, frozen pizzas etc. It does seem people eat a lot of chicken, especially freezer bags of breaded chicken etc. when i think of eating meat, i think of unadulterated red meat that you have to cook. We are a meat and vegetables household, and I don't feel that we eat an excessive amount of meat. A couple slices of bacon with 2-3 eggs for breakfast, if any. A fatty protein with a couple vegetables for supper. Lots of salads.

Its all the carb crap that people are eating that is making them fat. And all the sugary drinks. We have a dozen glass jugs we take down the street to fill with water about once a week. Keep a couple bags of lemons on hand and ice to spruce up the water sometimes. We get the kids a gallon of whole milk too

errc says

Do people really eat that much meat?

Depends on what you think is alot. Historically, and still today in many countries, meat is a flavoring(sparse), or something eaten on special occasions. So if you eat meat every day, yes, that's a lot.

Also, to be clear, carbs are a necessity for good health. They are the only thing your brain will use to function, so no carbs... Again these are complex, not processed. Think nuts, whole grans, seeds, rice, sprouted.

errc says

Nobody with a brain respects researchers who are married to bad science

People with brains are not persuaded by the likes of Gary Taubes and meat and egg board funded research. Moreover, even Taubes and Attia don't think the research is settled in their favor. Last I checked, Taubes couldn't even convince himself and his wife enough to feed his kids the same diet he tells other people to eat.

NuttBoxer says

Also, to be clear, carbs are a necessity for good health. They are the only thing your brain will use to function, so no carbs... Again these are complex, not processed. Think nuts, whole grans, seeds, rice, sprouted.

Carbs are actually the only (almost) non-essential fuel source if you want to take it to the extreme. The liver can perfectly convert fat to glucose needed for the brain, it can even do so with protein (as long as you eat enough protein) though fat is faster. If you have a functioning liver and want to keep it functioning, low carb is perfect (mild ketosis). You can live healthily with 20g -150g of carbs per day. Trained bodies could theoretically do zero, no need to go extreme though ;) It will take a while to revise those recommendations, a whole industry was built on the high carb myth, but I expect them to be slashed soon at least to 200g from ~300g, if not lower.

More propaganda from the fat police

I could take this thread seriously if you guys were so willing to present bullshit graphics to suit your narrative.
It's more like this...

mell says

Carbs are actually the only (almost) non-essential fuel source if you want to take it to the extreme.... Trained bodies could theoretically do zero,

This would mean eating zero plant foods and zero fiber. If you really believe it, you should give it a go and let us know what happens.

http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf

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YesYNot says

This would mean eating zero plant foods and zero fiber. If you really believe it, you should give it a go and let us know what happens.

Fiber is indigestible to humans and not a requirement for life. If it was, Eskimos and Siberians would all be dead because of limited access to it.

Grain products weren't consumed until the last "hour" of human existence only 12,000 years ago; Anatomically Modern Humans (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) have been around for 200,000 and Homo Sapiens for 500,000. And for much of that hour, there was no long-term storage of grasses that were only available in narrow windows of a few weeks during the entire year in most climes. Nor were most fruits available most of the year. Hundreds of thousands of years of grain-free Homo Sapiens.

Furthermore, most of those wild grasses, fruits, and starches were not only greatly limited to time availability, but were far less palatable, less nutritious, and were far smaller than modern varieties.

Humans pack on the pounds quite easily because they had to. Most mammalian omnivores don't stay at the same ideal weight year round, but fluctuate, as do most creatures generally. That is why it is a struggle to stay at a relatively lean weight amidst abundance.

errc says

I think most people fill their carts with shit that doesn't take much of any preparation. C

Indeed. You should avoid the middle aisles of the supermarket, and just shop the produce, meat and dairy aisles. Even nuts can be purchased that have added no-no's. Raw or minimally processed is OK. Feeding kids carbs with elevated sugar levels (i.e. sugary cereals) always seems a bit crazy from a number of perspectives.

In WA state supermarkets can now sell hard liquor. Soon you will be able to buy cocaine and LSD. Heroin maybe.

mell says

a whole industry was built on the high carb myth

What industry is that? I'm aware of Adkins, and low carb fads. Never heard of a high carb fad though...

NuttBoxer says

mell says

a whole industry was built on the high carb myth

What industry is that? I'm aware of Adkins, and low carb fads. Never heard of a high carb fad though...

There's also the Atkins industry, but it is much much smaller than the carb industry pushing sugar/HFCS into everything as well as the whole cereal/whole grain mafia. High carb was never a fad but silently established by literally adding sugar to everything, esp. "low-fat" designer foods which used to be very popular when fat was the devil. My, times have changed, but they won't go down without a fight. Even leading cancer researchers now say that out of the 3 essential nutrients, carbs (esp. fast) are the most likely ones to promote cancer, the jury on protein is maybe (in too high doses esp. if you don't work out for it) and it's fat does likely not promote it at all.

the jury on protein is maybe (in to

----------------

I don't think that it's the (animal) protein that is harmful, rather the type of CAFO protein that CAFO SAD'ers consume.

Its actually kinda hard to over eat animal proteins and fats. They are very satiating.

Soda is liquid candy. It's the worst thing you can eat or drink. It's pure empty calories. Yet Americans drink it like it was unsweetened tea or water.

Worst still, the main ingredient of soda is high fructose corn syrup, the single worse thing you can eat.

I'm a big fan of drinking tea. It's healthy and calorie free. And when you serve it ice cold, it's refreshing.

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Yea, the sugary drinks are probably the main culprit.

If all you ever drink is water/tea/lemon water, you can likely afford to not much worry about what you eat wrt to becoming obese. Relative to those that drink sugar liquids, you're saving yourself ~ 50g of sugar per serving. And 100% juice O.J. or pure apple juice, cranberry juice; their sugar is the same as a coca colas sugar. Fructose isn't a 'healthy' sugar.

errc says

the jury on protein is maybe (in to

----------------

I don't think that it's the (animal) protein that is harmful, rather the type of CAFO protein that CAFO SAD'ers consume.

Its actually kinda hard to over eat animal proteins and fats. They are very satiating.

Agreed, but with protein drinks it is easy to overload. Also I'd avoid soy protein and opt for whey or casein instead.

errc says

http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf

It surprises me again (you've posted that before, but I forgot) that they get enough vitamin c from meat.

thunderlips11 says

Fiber is indigestible to humans and not a requirement for life.

Being a requirement or not for life is not really an important question. Some miniscule amounts of omega 3 fat is required, but it is present in enough quantities in whole foods vegan or not. The only way to not get enough fat or protein or any specific amino acid is to strip fats and amino acids from food and eat the other parts. As for fiber, it's the one nutrient that the average American is deficient in.
thunderlips11 says

Grain products weren't consumed until the last "hour" of human existence only 12,000 years ago;

Grain residue has been found in tools that are 100K years old. Grass seeds have been eaten (from C12/C13 ratios) millions of years ago. Plants have toxins in them, but these may help our immune system. We clearly have evolved to digest starch better than our ape ancestors.thunderlips11 says

Nor were most fruits available most of the year.

I agree that animals provide a great storage mechanism for winter, and as I understand it, they helped humans expand into northern regions.thunderlips11 says

less palatable, less nutritious, and were far smaller than modern varieties.

Nothing that cavemen ate was as palatable as a nice restaurant meal. That's part of the obesity problem.
mell says

but it is much much smaller than the carb industry pushing sugar/HFCS into everything as well as the whole cereal/whole grain mafia

The food industry is huge, both at the cereal level and animal product level. Corn and soy are grown together, because soy helps fix nitrogen, which is needed in large quantity to grow corn. Corn and soy are used to grow meat as much as feed humans, so the Corn/soy mafia doesn't necessarily care what we eat. The high fat / low fat issue doesn't matter to them, though. If people want to drink low fat milk, then the dairy industry needs to find a use for the fat. So, they make a bunch of cheese, and then get the USDA to help figure out how to get people to eat it. Then, they have a bunch of whey left over, so they convince people that they need whey protein. The food and meat industry manipulated the guidelines to simple buzz words that they can use for marketing. I don't think that they care if it is low fat or low carb. In fact, the split into low fat and low carb people is perfect for the food industry, b/c it helps provide uses for all of the components of the food that is grown.

Do any of you low carbers have good podcasts to listen to? I like hearing views that are contrary to my own, and podcasts are an easy way to do so.

YesYNot says

Grain residue has been found in tools that are 100K years old.

Perhaps I should have said "Regularly"

Not very meaningful because even in subtropical/tropical regions, ripe grasses are rare and only available for a few weeks here and there out of the year, and there was no long-term strorage ability. Judging by modern hunter gatherers they were a food of last resort, in fact, agriculture and the drying of the Near East 12,000 years ago are probably related.

Also, we know that when a culture began grain-based agriculture, their populations increased but their lifespans shortened along with their quality of life declining (arthritis not uncommon in 20s, probably assisted by repetitive motion injuries endemic to farming with hand tools; this is seen well into the Renaissance with farmers having bad hips, backs, wrists and knees from swinging scythes and bending over repeatedly; other degenerative diseases at a real early onset. Not seen in hunter gathers or nomadic herders).

Sadly, I used to listen to a few good podcasts a few years back, but can't remember the name of them.

Which is worse, being obese or voting against one's own interest?
Both could be changed.
FMTT! I'm expecting too much.

YesYNot says

The food industry is huge, both at the cereal level and animal product level. Corn and soy are grown together, because soy helps fix nitrogen, which is needed in large quantity to grow corn. Corn and soy are used to grow meat as much as feed humans, so the Corn/soy mafia doesn't necessarily care what we eat.

Unfortunately, corn and soy are being forced into marginal Savannah and arid areas better used for grazing, slash and burning rain forest, and cows and chickens should not be consuming nothing but grain seed. Cows should be eating a wide variety of green plant matter. Corn and Soy diets are horrible for cows, which is one reason (the other being close proximity) why they need to be injected with massive doses of antibiotics. It's "Too Rich" for them. In nature, wild bovines do not eat ripe corn kernals every day all year round.

The resulting meat contains less healthy fat, and the take over of grazing land by agriculture exhausts the soil or requires massive use of industrial fertilizers, which then runs off into the water supply. Just like farm-raised Tilapia isn't as good as wild, because of the monotonous soy pellet diet.

If we ate less corn and soy, most of Brazil would be lightly to moderately wooded Savannah where cattle grazing would improve the soil via widespread natural manure, and not strip planted for corn... while feedlot concentrated poop and fertilizer for the corn/soy complex runs into the rivers, killing the fish and other creatures that depend on them.

Domestic Cattle's origin is in forests and woods, not in flat plains. While the buffalo is famous for being on the plains, it was all over North America including in the marshes and forests. Hence Buffalo, NY which is not located on a flat grassy plain. Cattle can thrive on the undergrowth of forests; but corn and soy need full sun and tractors can't go through trees.

thunderlips11 says

Warfarin needs to be monitored and adjusted regularly. It's easy to see how it can cause hospitalization when the dosage isn't adjusted frequently. Once a year doesn't cut it, and twice a year is probably inadequate for the very aged/sick

people dont always do it, but the diligent check it 1-2 times per month

mell says

but with protein drinks

are also far more insulogenic than eating solid-food based protein sources, since the protein in these drinks is easily absorbed. Best taken post-workout when insulin sensitivity is at it's highest

Fat Acceptance is the same thing as Diabetes acceptance, heart disease acceptance, early death acceptance, disgusting body acceptance. I don't care if you're fat, but don't try to tell me that there's nothing wrong with being fat. Being fat is unhealthy and disgusting.

www.youtube.com/embed/AGh74l0mtXM

If it takes a submarine and a tide chart to knock her up, you should probably shop elsewhere.

YesYNot says

Big jump in carbohydrates, and mostly from sugar.

thunderlips11 says

I suspect the sugar and trans (but not all) fats are the main culprit.

YesYNot says

No one is getting fat on plain potatoes.

YesYNot says

the relative 'goodness' of saturated fat, trans fat, sugar, pufas, and low fat.

Blurtman says

It's carbs, and simple carbs.

How about quantities?
Too many people eat mindlessly, without being hungry.

Why do people hate American's right to be fat?

Which is worse being fat or voting D/R & destroying America.

How about quantities?

---------------

Quantity shouldn't be an issue

It's quality that matters.

If quantity was the issue, then you should be able to lose weight drinking only a six pack of Coca Cola per day, while I should gain weight eating 3 eggs with half a lb of bacon for breakfast and an 10 oz ribeye well marbles with two sides of veggies every night for supper. The opposite is true, so quantity is not the issue.

What happened to all the hot female Realtor's?