patrick.net

I'm just messing with you ducky.....got to have a sense of humor.... Your ok,
Don't take yourself to serious now.....

thunderlips11 says

BTW, I think Trump was suckered a little bit last night. With the article about Ailes dumping Rubio, articles about the GOPe accepting Reality, etc. he may have thought he wasn't going to get Megyn'd, and walked into an ambush. Even so, he fired both sides of the ship and kept moving forward, which is the correct strategy.

Oh FFS. Trump thought maybe he wouldn't be asked some tough questions? Otherwise he would have ran away like he did on the last Fox debate?

What questions were out of bounds?

Remember the last Fox Debate that Trump bailed on where both Cruz and Rubio were presented with videos of their flip flops on immigration and other issues? Just imagine if Trump was made to explain his massive hypocrisy and flip-flops at that debate based on all of the video they have on Trump's past statements? In retrospect, it was smart for Trump to run away from that debate to keep his cult in the dark.

socal2 says

thunderlips11 says

- Said he would force the military to commit war crimes "They'll do what I tell them"

Total Twisting.

Dude is a total fascist. I know that is why you swoon for him.

When Trump talks of taking out a few families, it's a "war crime", but of course when Cheney supports torture it isn't. When Obama drones weddings parties, it isn't.
Instead of taking out the few right people, you prefer the US army to go in respect the rules and leave a trail of 100,000s bodies full of American shrapnel. Because at least it's not a "war crime".
This shows how the US doesn't really have what it takes to impose its will in a region like the middle east. The US army goes in and you can't even control the road from the airport to Baghdad. The Wehrmacht would have done it. And there aren't 50 ways to go about it.

Heraclitusstudent says

Cheney supports torture it isn't. When Obama drones weddings parties, it isn't.

The U.S. has lost its will to hold the executive accountable. And now some voters actively support a candidate promising to commit war crimes and wips his tiny shrivelled penis with the Constitution.

Heraclitusstudent says

When Trump talks of taking out a few families, it's a "war crime", but of course when Cheney supports torture it isn't. When Obama drones weddings parties, it isn't.

Instead of taking out the few right people, you prefer the US army to go in respect the rules and leave a trail of 100,000s bodies full of American shrapnel. Because at least it's not a "war crime".

Do you consider the brother of a terrorist one of the "right people"? His crime being born into the wrong family?

Heraclitusstudent says

When Trump talks of taking out a few families, it's a "war crime", but of course when Cheney supports torture it isn't.

Trump wasn't just talking about collateral damage. He was talking about PURPOSEFULLY killing terrorist families to deter terrorists.

tatupu70 says

Do you consider the brother of a terrorist one of the "right people"? His crime being born into the wrong family?

socal2 says

Trump wasn't just talking about collateral damage. He was talking about PURPOSEFULLY killing terrorist families to deter terrorists.

Funny. You guys think this is about justice? Judging who is guilty or not?
This is exactly why the US is totally impotent in this kind of cases.

Heraclitusstudent says

Funny. You guys think this is about justice? Judging who is guilty or not?

This is exactly why the US is totally impotent in this kind of cases.

And what do you think?

socal2 says

Trump wasn't just talking about collateral damage.

The term collateral damage is totally specious btw. Who is to know what information was present when the decide to shoot a wedding. Who is to know what was overlooked, and who gives a damn about it. It's like "oh I killed your family? oops sorry, my bad."

tatupu70 says

And what do you think?

I think if this is what you think you're better off staying off the middle east and focusing on defenses in the US.

These are not criminals carrying an id plate. They are bands of people acting for ideological reasons. You kill one, some other one immediately replaces him. There is no id, there is no notion of culpability. All you can do is set incentives at a very general level.

Heraclitusstudent says

I think if this is what you think

And by "this" -- you are referring to the thought process of "innocent until proven guilty"? Pretty much the core belief of the US system of government?

Heraclitusstudent says

you're better off staying off the middle east and focusing on defenses in the US.

I don't disagree with this statement. We've pretty much screwed up every time we've tried to do anything there.

Heraclitusstudent says

The term collateral damage is totally specious btw. Who is to know what information was present when the decide to shoot a wedding. Who is to know what was overlooked, and who gives a damn about it. It's like "oh I killed your family? oops sorry, my bad."

There is a big moral and legal difference in knowingly harming or killing an innocent person in YOUR CUSTODY to get after a bad guy.

As opposed to one of our soldiers in Afghanistan getting shot at by the Taliban who throws a grenade into a window and accidentally kills the Jihadi's wife.

Oh well - Trump just reversed himself on torture. All is well.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-reverses-his-stance-on-torture-1457116559

This fucker changes his positions every few minutes.

Trump will totally be solid on immigration and trade once he gets into the White House. Dude is solid like a rock!

I'm all for limiting Muslim Immigration except to highly Westernized, very secular ones in small doses. Like Britain in the 1960s, only the Train Conductors, the Dentists, all of whom went to English Language Secular Schools.

Eventually a large Muslim population will use political pressure and we can say goodbye to Israel's top supporter. Only hope would be to get the Poles and Hungarians to realize Israel is the Acre against the Jihad. Also, I see what is happening in Europe and I can do without.

SCOTUS has never challenged the right of Congress to discriminate against national origin and refuse those it believes are incompatible with modern secular democracy.

socal2 says

This fucker changes his positions every few minutes.

The meat of politics.... All the fuckers do-it.... naive to think otherwise isn't it?

socal2 says

As opposed to one of our soldiers in Afghanistan getting shot at by the Taliban who throws a grenade into a window and accidentally kills the Jihadi's wife.

It's more likely solely using Cell SIMs to track Terrorists. In third world countries, everything is PAYGO, some terrorist lends a phone to a grandma who has nothing to do with jack shit, she goes over to the next village to a wedding, and BOOM! hellfire attack. No terrorists are killed, government claims every male 12-100 is a "military age male", but it's all civilians.

Just FYI - Clinton was for torture, before she was against it, with the "Ticking Time Bomb" bullshit.

Polifact: Obama Claims Clinton Changed on Torture - TRUE

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/feb/01/barack-obama/clinton-changed-on-torture/

Just like she bashed Obama for being pro-gun control in 2008; now she bashes Bernie for not being very interested in Gun Control now.

Graybox says

The meat of politics.... All the fuckers do-it.... naive to think otherwise isn't it?

Within 24 hours? And then back again?

And on key campaign promises like H1B Visas?

thunderlips11 says

Just FYI - Clinton was for torture, before she was against it, with the "Ticking Time Bomb" bullshit.

Clinton was for the Iraq war before being against it.
Clinton was against gay marriages before being for it.
Clinton was for trade deals before being against them.
etc etc

Is that the new argument for Trump? Yes, he lies--but so does Clinton. Yes, he flip flops--but so does Clinton. Pretty soon it will be, yes he has a small package, but look at Hillary--she doesn't have anything.

By the way - notice the SJWs Socal dislikes - as do most of us - aren't going to the little tiny meetings Cruz and Rubio are having with the True Believers. The SJWs are targeting Trump and Bernie, of all people. BLM all over Bernie, not Hillary very much. "Bernie Bros" say the Rad Fems.

Anti-Trump GOPe Crack Force

"We gotta stop this guy - he'll stop our buddies from Outsourcing all the Jobs! He'll endanger our Corporate Inversions!"

socal2 says

There is a big moral and legal difference in knowingly harming or killing an innocent person in YOUR CUSTODY to get after a bad guy.

Sure and once you start a war, morality takes the back sit, doesn't it?
Let me give a few examples:

- If some resistant killed an officer, what would the Wehrmacht do? Round up the first 10 (civilian) men they can find and execute them. That sets "general incentives" and expectations.

- Remember Lebanon, how many western hostages were taken there? How many Russians? There was a Russian hostage once. But Russian services captured the wife of one of the men involved and proceeded to ship her back piece by piece. There wasn't too many Russian hostages after that.

You want to be all "fair" and "moral", I strongly recommend not going to war. War is about imposing yourself violently with all the ferocity you can muster. Being half-assed about it just gets more people killed.

Heraclitusstudent says

Remember Lebanon, how many western hostages were taken there? How many Russians? There was a Russian hostage once. But Russian services captured the wife of one of the men involved and proceeded to ship her back piece by piece. There wasn't too many Russian hostages after that.

You want to be all "fair" and "moral", I strongly recommend not going to war. War is about imposing yourself violently with all the ferocity you can muster. Being half-assed about it just gets more people killed.

That's crap. Killing the wife will make 100 more terrorists.

tatupu70 says

That's crap. Killing the wife will make 100 more terrorists.

No. They understand violence. Americans think they will be loved if they kill people "fairly". We see how it works.

Heraclitusstudent says

No. They understand violence. Americans think they will be loved if they kill people "fairly". We see how it works.

Sure they understand violence. And they'll answer violence with more violence.

tatupu70 says

Sure they understand violence. And they'll answer violence with more violence.

Saddam and Kaddafi didn't have a lot of violent opposition.
You are talking of people who despise everything you are, who think you are killing them anyway and take kindness as a sign of weakness in general.

Heraclitusstudent says

- Remember Lebanon, how many western hostages were taken there? How many Russians? There was a Russian hostage once. But Russian services captured the wife of one of the men involved and proceeded to ship her back piece by piece. There wasn't too many Russian hostages after that.

Not at all what happened, but it's a good story that keeps circulating. This story interestingly enough was released by the Mossad through the Jerusalem press and has been an urban legend ever since. Read Holy Terror by Amir Taheri for the real story.

Heraclitusstudent says

You are talking of people who despise everything you are, who think you are killing them anyway and take kindness as a sign of weakness in general.

Is not killing innocent people what qualifies as kindness now? Is that how far to the right we've gone?

tatupu70 says

Is not killing innocent people what qualifies as kindness now? Is that how far to the right we've gone?

This is not what I said. If you want to talk of innocents, is the US not killing innocents as it is? You think good intentions make a difference?

Heraclitusstudent says

This is not what I said. If you want to talk of innocents, is the US not killing innocents as it is? You think good intentions make a difference?

Who is talking about "good intentions". Trump is advocating for purposely killing innocent people. I'm saying let's not kill innocents.

Heraclitusstudent says

You think good intentions make a difference?

Of course intentions make a difference.

tatupu70 says

Who is talking about "good intentions". Trump is advocating for purposely killing innocent people. I'm saying let's not kill innocents.

Where?

YesYNot says

Of course intentions make a difference.

Not in ISIS Videos they don't. Not in the Wahabi Madrassahs and Mosques all over the Arab world.

"US accidentally bombs Pashtu Wedding Party" becomes "Crusaders admit they killed the innocents! ULULULU Bi-li Kafa Shai-Hulud! Stillsuit Akbar!"

And the more educated, less radical Muslims won't say
"Well, intent is magic; I'll take their Apology."
They say "The US must stop bombing now!"

Shit, they've got half the world convinced Gaza with multiple multi-story shopping malls, countless 6+ Story Concrete and Steel Apartment Buildings, and a large Outdoor Water Park that just broke a Guiness World Record for baking the largest Arab delicacy in history, is an "Open Air Concentration Camp"

thunderlips11 says

Where?

He says to kill the family of terrorists. Surely you don't think being a relative of a criminal makes you one too? (and don't call me Shirley)

thunderlips11 says

Not in ISIS Videos they don't. Not in the Wahabi Madrassahs and Mosques all over the Arab world.

1) I'd rather follow our own code of conduct than the ISIS code.
2) We need to convince a variety of people from other western countries to moderate Muslims that we are the good guys. We need to act that way.

thunderlips11 says

"US accidentally bombs Pashtu Wedding Party" becomes "Crusaders admit they killed the innocents! ULULULU Bi-li Kafa Shai-Hulud! Stillsuit Akbar!"

Just because someone is willing to lie and say we killed innocents intentionally doesn't give us the right to do so.

YesYNot says

Of course intentions make a difference.

Ok, sure. The US killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq. I'm sure your good intentions meant a lot to them.
I recommend not ever going close to a war.

Heraclitusstudent says

I recommend not ever going close to a war.

I do my best to avoid them.

Here are some hypotheticals:
1) The Donald was driving home from a campaign event and got into a car accident. Your mother was killed.
2) Someone stole the Donald's wallet. He was driving recklessly trying to catch up to the tranny prostitute who stole it, and got into a car accident. Your mother was killed.
3) The Donald was drunk and making Romney blow him while driving home from a campaign event and got into a car accident. Your mother was killed.
4) Someone told the Donald that you were a terrorist. He killed your mother, gave a thumbs up, and said he had a big dick. The terrorists can suck it.

I recommend not having the Donald kill your mother, but until further notice, I am going to assume his intentions would have an impact on how you would feel about it.

I guess it's a moot point now, b/c the Donald has realized that he was wrong and reversed course once again. This time he realized that he really shouldn't break international laws and kill innocent people, even if he wants to.

It's clear that he's just throwing things out there to see how they play and then deciding how to proceed based on the reactions he gets.

YesYNot says

1) I'd rather follow our own code of conduct than the ISIS code.

Glad to hear it - except it doesn't mean anything in regards to solving the problem. Drone Attacks inevitably kill innocents. US Apologies will be filtered via Arab media and Wahabi/Salafyi "Stop West-toxification" Imams and VIPs.

YesYNot says

2) We need to convince a variety of people from other western countries to moderate Muslims that we are the good guys. We need to act that way.

Been doing that for 15 years. Heraclitus is right, war is hell. Bullshit about just wars and Gentleman's codes of honor is all nice and shit, but it doesn stop precision bombs from hiding the exact target in the center of town. Then the masonry from the explosion flies hundreds of feet in every direction and kills and maims a dozen children nearby.

"But we only meant to kill General Jackass in his office, not babies."
"But you did kill babies, and Liberal Childkilling Interventionist regret cannot resurrect them. Oh, and the Al-McClusky clan has vowed revenge."

"B-but, we didn't mean to. And we don't condone torture."
"One of those kids lingered 3 days before she died the most painful death a toddler ever endured."

Have you forgotten the 30 minute AC-130 105mm shelling of the MSF hospital just months ago?

YesYNot says

I recommend not having the Donald kill your mother, but until further notice, I am going to assume his intentions would have an impact on how you would feel about it.

In half the scenarios you mentioned, his intentions were relatively good but it wouldn't change the way I would feel about it.