patrick.net

Quigley says

I saw a black dude at Walmart with a neck tattoo that read ISIS. I felt angry.

Maybe you misunderstood.

Moron!

28

FortWayne 2015 Jul 6, 7:41pm

If somehow the south had won, and the south had seceded, becoming a separate country, clearly slavery would have ended soon thereafter in the new confederate states anyway, because of pressure from all over the world. And for other reasons as well. Even as it was, we were pretty much the last developed country to do away with slavery. (not that it doesn't still exist in Africa and elsewhere, not to mention other forms of slavery).

So if that "Confederate States of America" existed today, it would not be seen as a country that's all about slavery.. That would only be seen as one of the main trigger issues

leading to the secession. Likewise those who fought in the war, did so to follow their leaders, and their brothers, not becasue they were all about continuing slavery. Slavery was primarily about the interests of the wealthy in the south.

Educational material like that does not serve the media purpose of pissing people off and running off to the poles to vote for the candidate pressing emotionally charged issues. What are you doing educating the masses here Marcus?

29

marcus 2015 Jul 6, 7:53pm

What are you doing educating the masses here Marcus?

So you can see that the truth on this issue lieas somewhere between the extremist views.

But on other issues ?

YOur comments anbout liberals wanting the money of the conservatives are just silly. IF you were honest with yourself you would realize that conservatives have run up deficits way worse than "liberals." And you'd also see that just like in real life, paying for what you spend, (via taxes in this case) is the only real way to keep spending under control. But yes that spending also supports government jobs, which the entire economy is dependent on in a way that I don't think you understand. Maybe if you realized that all that money spent on govt jobs gets spent in to the economy and or paid in taxes, it would help you to understand that it's not the boogie man you make it out to be. Yes, we need to actually produce things. But we produce things in large part for domestic consumption, and a lot of that consumption money actually comes from govt expenditures - most of which goes towards govt jobs.

Oh, but there I go again. .

30

marcus 2015 Jul 6, 8:16pm

pressing emotionally charged issues

This issue doesn't do much for the left, But it might be a charged issue for the right. Somehow ignorant hate often is.

31

tatupu70 2015 Jul 7, 8:42am

Going to play those semantics again, are you?? How would you know, there hasn't been a budget passed/approved for years.

Then why has the debt and the debt/gdp numbers gone up so dramatically the last 6 years?

Just because the deficit has shrunk, after 6 years, he's still sitting on the LARGEST deficit of any president!

*

Semantics?? This graph of yours says it all:

Look at how much the deficit has shrunk under Obama's watch. That's amazingly good, actually.

You can fault this President for a lot of things, but excessive spending is not one of them.

32

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW 2015 Jul 7, 8:53am

Here is a chart put out by the US treasury.
?uuid=1wnslgdREeKv_9bH8gqDvw

It or something like it has been posted here enough times for you to have seen it.

Three things are primarily responsible (1) Bush cut taxes, b/c we had a surplus, and no one has been able to take that back (2) A bunch of income in 2007 disappeared, because it was based on the fire economy. That resulted in a decrease in revenue, which your own chart shows (3) Bush's additional spending. Obama's additional spending is minor relatively.

Here's another look at exactly what spending we are talking about.

33

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW 2015 Jul 7, 8:56am

In case you didn't notice. On Obama's side, the green numbers are spending cuts. The salmon color are increases.

34

HydroCabron 2015 Jul 7, 9:09am

That last FRED chart, of total debt, shows that it grew from $11.8T to $18T under Obama (most of the 2009 budget was Bush's - the federal fiscal year runs from October 1st through September 30th).

That works out to a growth of $6.2T, not $9T - and I'm being a little generous to Bush here.

Also, Obama kept the Bush tax cuts, thanks to high Republican numbers in Congress, The tax cuts did nothing to help the economy, serving merely to grow the deficit.

35

FortWayne 2015 Jul 7, 9:25am

YOur comments anbout liberals wanting the money of the conservatives are just silly.

Of course it is, but it makes for one hell of a fun argument with Dan. If all of us always agreed, this forum would be dead!

36

tatupu70 2015 Jul 7, 10:14am

tatupu70 says

Look at how much the deficit has shrunk under Obama's watch. That's amazingly good, actually.

Who has had the majority in the House during that time period?

The same party that had the majority for most of Bush's term. Didn't seem to stop the deficit from growing during that time period.

37 bob2356 2015 Jul 7, 10:33am

Just because the deficit has shrunk, after 6 years, he's still sitting on the LARGEST deficit of any president!

Actually 2009 was the largest deficit of any president and that was bush's budget. Obama's first budget was 2010. After 6 years the deficit has been cut 60% and is below many of reagan's deficits. But don't let facts screw you up.

38

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW 2015 Jul 7, 10:41am

Probably. It seems like an important topic for you, so you should feel free to look it up if you want an update. The second chart is from 2012, which covers most of the region in your chart. Furthermore, the deficit has shrunk quickly since then (1.3 trillion in 2011 to 480 billion in 2014.

As a start, the cost of Bush tax cuts have increased proportionately, as these have not gone away. The cost of the two year extension to the Bush tax cuts is on Republicans with their pledge of no new taxes.

39

Dan8267 2015 Jul 7, 5:13pm

You liberals are sure Orwellian.

You racist conservatives sure make up bullshit. There's nothing Orwellian in liberalism. Liberalism is pretty much the text-book antonym of the kind of government in 1984.

Confederates weren't terrorists.

First off, I didn't say the confederacy was a terrorist organization. I said the KKK is a terrorist organization and the KKK was the entire reason the Confederate battle flag was adopted by the south as soon as the KKK started using it as a symbol of their terrorism.

Second, slavery is by definition a form of terrorism. You cannot keep a nation of slaves in check without inflicting them with terror to prevent them from revolting. Slavery is built on terror. So, yes, the American southerners who committed treason by waging war on this "great nation of ours", to use your words, were indeed terrorists.

SoftShell says

libbies are not just against the confederate flag. they hate em all...

They like to ban everything they don't like. Flags (including American), Constitution, Freedom of Speech, Guns, Republicans, white people, rich people, corporations, and just about everything that liberal media tells them to hate at the moment.

What color is the sky in your world? No body has proposed banning any of those things.

No one is saying that people can't fly the racist Confederate battle flag of treason on their own property. Hell, as a liberal, I'll defend your right to wave the Nazi flag and the ISIS flag on your own property or paint those flags on your truck. But don't tell me that you would be OK with a politician using public property to advocate terrorism or Nazism by putting either of their flags on the public courthouse, the state senate building, or the White House. The state does not have freedom of speech. Private citizens do. The state does not get to use its unlimited resources, paid for with our tax dollars, and the power of government to force terrorist or racist ideology down our throats. That's what this debate is about.

40

Dan8267 2015 Jul 7, 5:15pm

Of course it is, but it makes for one hell of a fun argument with Dan. If all of us always agreed, this forum would be dead!

You're entitled to disagree on opinions including values, no matter how vile and despicable your values are. However, you are not entitled to disagree about facts. Facts are objective and verifiable. They are not open to interpretation or whimsy. There is only one reality.

41

Dan8267 2015 Jul 7, 5:20pm

https://www.youtube.com/embed/jREUrbGGrgM

Dan8267 says

However, you are not entitled to disagree about facts.

Why? You do ALL the time!

Name one example, pussy.

42

marcus 2015 Jul 7, 11:08pm

Really ? I can't even get one like from you dipshits for this ?

The south lost, but I reckon they have the right to remember their ancestors, we're talking good men, that died in that war, by far the greatest war Americans have been involved in. I'm not advocating for the S.C. government to have any connection to the flag. But as a sybol to southernors, for many reasons other than anything to do with race, I have no problem with it.

JZ and Beyonce are trying to buy the rights to the flag, so that they can what, stop selling it ? Or perhaps to be ironic. There is such a thing as taking it too far, which some are doing. I understand the general idea, and even agree with it. But it's going too far to suggest that the flag is evil.

The sad thing is that the affect of taking it too far is to strengthen the right wing political feelings of all those that say "fuck you - you can't take my flag - you don't know what it means to me !!"

Right at the moment when they were just about ready to finally let it go.

43 bob2356 2015 Jul 8, 2:19am

bob2356 says

Actually 2009 was the largest deficit of any president and that was bush's budget.

and two years after the Dems took over Congress.... Hmmmm...

The big deficits were baked in during the first 2 years Bush was president, with a very republican congress. But understanding that would involve looking at numbers which for you is of course a hopeless task. Good thing you never let facts interfere with your opinions.

44

zzyzzx 2015 Jul 8, 8:05am

45

Rew 2015 Jul 8, 11:20am

Banning the sale of the flag, or re-runs of an old TV show which predominately featured it, is not what is being advocated. Companies are choosing to do this to protect themselves for fear of backlash. It will settle down. Cletus and Ned will be able to get their stars and bars to stick on the rusty bumper of their truck still.

I'm for your right to buy any distasteful symbol you like, and display it how you like, and I think the majority of America is as well. I also believe you will provoke some interesting communication your way, as is also correct and right. But we, as citizens in the US, shouldn't fly that outdated symbol from public buildings. That is a symbol associated with a culture, counter to our current, which predominantly held slavery to be a cornerstone of its being. The majority of us are way beyond those days here in the US.

I agree, the media echo chamber, and the rule by "political correctness cyber mob" is also a serious issue. Again, this is what is motivating the companies to duck and cover. (There are more people with $ that may be pissed off, than more $ that may be gained by selling = let's take some precaution here.)

I think our internet/media-mob mentality, and the divisiveness caused by new media communication, is a new dynamic we haven't fully figured out yet. It's something I hope I can teach my kids to deal with. Admittedly, I've learned a ton over the past 10 years, watching the public, our media, and the government all mix it up on the net.

46

Strategist 2015 Jul 8, 11:49am

Rew says

I'm for your right to buy any distasteful symbol you like, and display it how you like, and I think the majority of America is as well. I also believe you will provoke some interesting communication your way, as is also correct and right. But we, as citizens in the US, shouldn't fly that outdated symbol from public buildings. That is a symbol associated with a culture, counter to our current, which predominantly held slavery to be a cornerstone of its being. The majority of us are way beyond those days here in the US.

Nice!

47

Strategist 2015 Jul 8, 11:50am

zzyzzx says

Yes honey you have to remove it. We want the world to see the true beauty of America.

48

zzyzzx 2015 Jul 9, 9:33am

49

zzyzzx 2015 Jul 9, 9:38am

50

zzyzzx 2015 Jul 9, 9:39am

51

Strategist 2015 Jul 9, 9:46am

The south lost, but I reckon they have the right to remember their ancestors,

Which ancestors would that be? The slaves, or the slave owners.

we're talking good men,

The good guys were the ones who wanted to free the slaves, not the ones who wanted to keep the slaves.

I'm not advocating for the S.C. government to have any connection to the flag. But as a sybol to southernors, for many reasons other than anything to do with race, I have no problem with it.

You obviously are.

52

zzyzzx 2015 Jul 10, 12:31pm

53

tatupu70 2015 Jul 10, 12:50pm

Does this accurately summarize the argument against taking down the flag from government buildings?

1. It's been there a long time and nobody said anything before. (which isn't really true)
2. Some Democrats had the flag in the past too.

The real question is: does it make sense to fly a flag that honors the War to keep slavery in the South?

54

HydroCabron 2015 Jul 10, 12:51pm

Clinton & Gore used that flag because you must kiss Confederacy-worshipping ass to get elected in the United States.

Amazingly, these same people turn it around to argue that they're persecuted.

55

HydroCabron 2015 Jul 10, 12:52pm

tatupu70 says

2. Some Democrats had the flag in the past too.

New argument for high taxes: the communists had them, as did Hitler, and during Truman-Eisenhower-Kennedy years they were quite high.

So what's the fuss? STFU and pay pay pay!

56

Strategist 2015 Jul 10, 6:50pm

zzyzzx says

It's been six hours. Not that slowly.

57 Blurtman 2015 Jul 10, 6:59pm

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/dinesh-dsouza-posts-fake-photo-hillary-clinton-confederate-flag

Ha Ha Ha...

Priceless...

Tsk, tsk, tsk,....

Right-wing â€œintellectualâ€ Dinesh Dâ€™Souza today tweeted out a photo that purportedly shows Hillary Clinton sitting in front of a Confederate flag. He also shared the image on his Facebook page.

UPDATE: D'Souza changed the Facebook post to read: "Even if the #ConfederateFlag was edited into this Hillary photo, WHAT is going on with those glasses and that hairdo?"

58 Blurtman 2015 Jul 10, 7:22pm