patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Nooses are evidently also about Southern pride. By the way, what the fuck does the South have to be proud of? Treason? Slavery? Inbreeding?

Great, so you found an example of a blow-hard "I will not bow-down"er. As long as he runs his business and doesn't break the law he can stay amongst his ilk and life simply goes on. Those who break the law and kill others ought and usually will be brought to justice. What I find far more frightening than your redneck hater is that in the same segment they had the police make the clarification that ("sadly") displaying symbols on private property does not constitute a hate crime. Orwell's 1984 is close, and the government, the media and the social justice warriors are pushing it. It's not a long shot from hate crime to thought crime and the very fact that we have the bullshit hate crime category is proof how far this idiocy has come.

CaptainShuddup says

Dan8267 says

By the way, what the fuck does the South have to be proud of?

Biscuits

Iced Tea

Cuisine in general(cook considered)

NASA

and fashion.

NASA? You pulled that out of your ass? Besides, it still doesn't address the question, whose context is about so-called Southern pride from 1865. The Confederate Navy Jack is way the hell older than NASA.

As for the rest of your list, it's weak tea. Every locale has food and clothes. It's pretty lame when your source of pride comes from that.

Blurtman says

All of whom would find the Confederate Navy Jack offensive and would be personally insulted if you insulated that they were associated with that flag.

I'm still looking for what the Confederate Navy Jack symbolizes that Southerners are proud of.

FortWayne says

You liberals don't get it, and probably never will. Still running to big government for your rescue, while the nation falls apart because of the big government in the first place.

If a state capital flew the ISIS flag, you'd be the first up in arms to have it removed. It's hypocrisy for you to bitch and moan that other citizens are demanding that state governments don't fly terrorist flags.

Yep, terrorists love this shit:

Straw Man says

Yep, terrorists love this shit:

That's the Cross of Saint George in Saltire formation, Not the Confederate Battle Flag. The lack of stars for one.

Predates the Confederacy by about a century. First use among Cossacks in the 1700s

The Ukies in Kiev City Hall placing it next to the White Power Cross among Nazi symbols contextualizes their use of the actual, including starts, Confederate Battle Flag.

Surprise! Nazis - Stormfront - KKK - Neo-confederates are all pals.

Swastika and wolfsangel predate Hitler by centuries, plural, too, but all peothunderlips11 says

That's the Cross of Saint George,

Saint George cross is red vertical cross on white field. Looks nothing like the stuff above.

thunderlips11 says

Not the Confederate Battle Flag. The lack of stars for one.

Predates the Confederacy by centuries, plural.

It's a variation. And no, it doesn't predate anything, because this particular variation was created hastily as a battle flag for the fake "uprising" in Spring of 2014 and has been used by organization officially designated as terrorist ever since.

FortWayne says

You liberals don't get it, and probably never will. Still running to big government for your rescue, while the nation falls apart because of the big government in the first place.

Fortwayne, that flag just causes trouble. We don't need any government body hoisting it up. I see that flag as a "Racist Taunt"

Dan8267 says

Every locale has food and clothes. It's pretty lame when your source of pride comes from that.

The Tennessee Tuxedo

Most people (myself included) don't want it banned. We just don't think it should be used or flown by the govt.

libbies are not just against the confederate flag. they hate em all...

Call it Crazy says

I really don't understand why you want to ban the Confederate flag. Is this really that disturbing?

Straw Man says

Saint George cross is red vertical cross on white field. Looks nothing like the stuff above.

Russian Navy Flag, circa 1700.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru~nav.html

That's about a century before the Constitution and more than a century and a half before the Confederacy existed.

(I'm copying my comment from another thread on this because it is on this topic)

By the way. nobody is blaming the confederate flag for the murders in Charleston, except very very very very very indirectly. The point is that maybe if we put that war further behind us, it will help decrease racial hate. Including the kind that led to the Charleston murders. Not having the state, the capital building or the governors house identify with the flag are good steps in that direction.

But maybe some of the anti confederate flag movement is overdone, I can agree with that. Having some sentimentality or whatever about the Confederacy is fine. But at the same time some people and institutions are making gestures toward recognizing that some of what the flag represents is bad. That's all. Calm down right wingers.

I'm personally conflicted a little, having strong ancestry in that direction, including a great great grandfather that died in the war on the confederate side. I certainly don't think that if someone has a confederate flag on their wall it means they are racist. But at the same time, they should realize that often the flag and white southern racism do go together.

TO ban the confederate flag all together, would be like banning republicans all together, or fundamentalist Christians all together. There would be far less racism and ignorance without them, but hey, they are part of the fabric of this country.They have their right to exist. And not all republicans or all fundamentalist Christians are racists. The same is true for people that are sentimental in some ways about the confederacy.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/jREUrbGGrgM

Straw Man says

Swastika and wolfsangel predate Hitler by centuries,

Right, skinheaded dudes hanging White Power Crosses and Confederate Flags just happen, by accident, to readopt the Wolfsangel and Swastika as ancient Indo-European symbols, nothing to do with Nazism.

Dan8267 says

If a state capital flew the ISIS flag, you'd be the first up in arms to have it removed. It's hypocrisy for you to bitch and moan that other citizens are demanding that state governments don't fly terrorist flags.

You liberals are sure Orwellian. Confederates weren't terrorists. It sure is interesting how quick you are to label your fellow Americans as terrorists, and why Obama hasn't done jack shit about NSA.

SoftShell says

libbies are not just against the confederate flag. they hate em all...

They like to ban everything they don't like. Flags (including American), Constitution, Freedom of Speech, Guns, Republicans, white people, rich people, corporations, and just about everything that liberal media tells them to hate at the moment.

Also here's a newsflash for those who wish to oversimplify the issue.

If somehow the south had won, and the south had seceded, becoming a separate country, clearly slavery would have ended soon thereafter in the new confederate states anyway, because of pressure from all over the world. And for other reasons as well. Even as it was, we were pretty much the last developed country to do away with slavery. (not that it doesn't still exist in Africa and elsewhere, not to mention other forms of slavery).

So if that "Confederate States of America" existed today, it would not be seen as a country that's all about slavery.. That would only be seen as one of the main trigger issues
leading to the secession. Likewise those who fought in the war, did so to follow their leaders, and their brothers, not becasue they were all about continuing slavery. Slavery was primarily about the interests of the wealthy in the south.

I saw a black dude at Walmart with a neck tattoo that read ISIS. I felt angry. I almost went aggro on him. Anyone who supports rape and murder and ethnic/religious cleansing doesn't deserve to live in my fuxxing country!
But I had my wife and kids with me so I just gave him dirty looks.
Dammit.

Quigley says

I saw a black dude at Walmart with a neck tattoo that read ISIS. I felt angry.

Maybe you misunderstood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis#/media/File:Isis.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

marcus says

Quigley says

I saw a black dude at Walmart with a neck tattoo that read ISIS. I felt angry.

Maybe you misunderstood.

Moron!

marcus says

If somehow the south had won, and the south had seceded, becoming a separate country, clearly slavery would have ended soon thereafter in the new confederate states anyway, because of pressure from all over the world. And for other reasons as well. Even as it was, we were pretty much the last developed country to do away with slavery. (not that it doesn't still exist in Africa and elsewhere, not to mention other forms of slavery).

So if that "Confederate States of America" existed today, it would not be seen as a country that's all about slavery.. That would only be seen as one of the main trigger issues

leading to the secession. Likewise those who fought in the war, did so to follow their leaders, and their brothers, not becasue they were all about continuing slavery. Slavery was primarily about the interests of the wealthy in the south.

Educational material like that does not serve the media purpose of pissing people off and running off to the poles to vote for the candidate pressing emotionally charged issues. What are you doing educating the masses here Marcus?

FortWayne says

What are you doing educating the masses here Marcus?

So you can see that the truth on this issue lieas somewhere between the extremist views.

But on other issues ?

YOur comments anbout liberals wanting the money of the conservatives are just silly. IF you were honest with yourself you would realize that conservatives have run up deficits way worse than "liberals." And you'd also see that just like in real life, paying for what you spend, (via taxes in this case) is the only real way to keep spending under control. But yes that spending also supports government jobs, which the entire economy is dependent on in a way that I don't think you understand. Maybe if you realized that all that money spent on govt jobs gets spent in to the economy and or paid in taxes, it would help you to understand that it's not the boogie man you make it out to be. Yes, we need to actually produce things. But we produce things in large part for domestic consumption, and a lot of that consumption money actually comes from govt expenditures - most of which goes towards govt jobs.

Oh, but there I go again. .

FortWayne says

pressing emotionally charged issues

This issue doesn't do much for the left, But it might be a charged issue for the right. Somehow ignorant hate often is.

Call it Crazy says

Going to play those semantics again, are you?? How would you know, there hasn't been a budget passed/approved for years.

Then why has the debt and the debt/gdp numbers gone up so dramatically the last 6 years?

Just because the deficit has shrunk, after 6 years, he's still sitting on the LARGEST deficit of any president!

*

Semantics?? This graph of yours says it all:

Call it Crazy says

Look at how much the deficit has shrunk under Obama's watch. That's amazingly good, actually.

You can fault this President for a lot of things, but excessive spending is not one of them.

Here is a chart put out by the US treasury.
?uuid=1wnslgdREeKv_9bH8gqDvw

It or something like it has been posted here enough times for you to have seen it.

Three things are primarily responsible (1) Bush cut taxes, b/c we had a surplus, and no one has been able to take that back (2) A bunch of income in 2007 disappeared, because it was based on the fire economy. That resulted in a decrease in revenue, which your own chart shows (3) Bush's additional spending. Obama's additional spending is minor relatively.

Here's another look at exactly what spending we are talking about.

In case you didn't notice. On Obama's side, the green numbers are spending cuts. The salmon color are increases.

That last FRED chart, of total debt, shows that it grew from $11.8T to $18T under Obama (most of the 2009 budget was Bush's - the federal fiscal year runs from October 1st through September 30th).

That works out to a growth of $6.2T, not $9T - and I'm being a little generous to Bush here.

Also, Obama kept the Bush tax cuts, thanks to high Republican numbers in Congress, The tax cuts did nothing to help the economy, serving merely to grow the deficit.

marcus says

YOur comments anbout liberals wanting the money of the conservatives are just silly.

Of course it is, but it makes for one hell of a fun argument with Dan. If all of us always agreed, this forum would be dead!

Call it Crazy says

tatupu70 says

Look at how much the deficit has shrunk under Obama's watch. That's amazingly good, actually.

Who has had the majority in the House during that time period?

The same party that had the majority for most of Bush's term. Didn't seem to stop the deficit from growing during that time period.

Call it Crazy says

Just because the deficit has shrunk, after 6 years, he's still sitting on the LARGEST deficit of any president!

Actually 2009 was the largest deficit of any president and that was bush's budget. Obama's first budget was 2010. After 6 years the deficit has been cut 60% and is below many of reagan's deficits. But don't let facts screw you up.

Probably. It seems like an important topic for you, so you should feel free to look it up if you want an update. The second chart is from 2012, which covers most of the region in your chart. Furthermore, the deficit has shrunk quickly since then (1.3 trillion in 2011 to 480 billion in 2014.

As a start, the cost of Bush tax cuts have increased proportionately, as these have not gone away. The cost of the two year extension to the Bush tax cuts is on Republicans with their pledge of no new taxes.

FortWayne says

You liberals are sure Orwellian.

You racist conservatives sure make up bullshit. There's nothing Orwellian in liberalism. Liberalism is pretty much the text-book antonym of the kind of government in 1984.

FortWayne says

Confederates weren't terrorists.

First off, I didn't say the confederacy was a terrorist organization. I said the KKK is a terrorist organization and the KKK was the entire reason the Confederate battle flag was adopted by the south as soon as the KKK started using it as a symbol of their terrorism.

Second, slavery is by definition a form of terrorism. You cannot keep a nation of slaves in check without inflicting them with terror to prevent them from revolting. Slavery is built on terror. So, yes, the American southerners who committed treason by waging war on this "great nation of ours", to use your words, were indeed terrorists.

FortWayne says

SoftShell says

libbies are not just against the confederate flag. they hate em all...

They like to ban everything they don't like. Flags (including American), Constitution, Freedom of Speech, Guns, Republicans, white people, rich people, corporations, and just about everything that liberal media tells them to hate at the moment.

What color is the sky in your world? No body has proposed banning any of those things.

No one is saying that people can't fly the racist Confederate battle flag of treason on their own property. Hell, as a liberal, I'll defend your right to wave the Nazi flag and the ISIS flag on your own property or paint those flags on your truck. But don't tell me that you would be OK with a politician using public property to advocate terrorism or Nazism by putting either of their flags on the public courthouse, the state senate building, or the White House. The state does not have freedom of speech. Private citizens do. The state does not get to use its unlimited resources, paid for with our tax dollars, and the power of government to force terrorist or racist ideology down our throats. That's what this debate is about.

FortWayne says

Of course it is, but it makes for one hell of a fun argument with Dan. If all of us always agreed, this forum would be dead!

You're entitled to disagree on opinions including values, no matter how vile and despicable your values are. However, you are not entitled to disagree about facts. Facts are objective and verifiable. They are not open to interpretation or whimsy. There is only one reality.

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

However, you are not entitled to disagree about facts.

Why? You do ALL the time!

Name one example, pussy.

Really ? I can't even get one like from you dipshits for this ?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/jREUrbGGrgM

The south lost, but I reckon they have the right to remember their ancestors, we're talking good men, that died in that war, by far the greatest war Americans have been involved in. I'm not advocating for the S.C. government to have any connection to the flag. But as a sybol to southernors, for many reasons other than anything to do with race, I have no problem with it.

JZ and Beyonce are trying to buy the rights to the flag, so that they can what, stop selling it ? Or perhaps to be ironic. There is such a thing as taking it too far, which some are doing. I understand the general idea, and even agree with it. But it's going too far to suggest that the flag is evil.

The sad thing is that the affect of taking it too far is to strengthen the right wing political feelings of all those that say "fuck you - you can't take my flag - you don't know what it means to me !!"

Right at the moment when they were just about ready to finally let it go.

Call it Crazy says

bob2356 says

Actually 2009 was the largest deficit of any president and that was bush's budget.

and two years after the Dems took over Congress.... Hmmmm...

The big deficits were baked in during the first 2 years Bush was president, with a very republican congress. But understanding that would involve looking at numbers which for you is of course a hopeless task. Good thing you never let facts interfere with your opinions.

Banning the sale of the flag, or re-runs of an old TV show which predominately featured it, is not what is being advocated. Companies are choosing to do this to protect themselves for fear of backlash. It will settle down. Cletus and Ned will be able to get their stars and bars to stick on the rusty bumper of their truck still.

I'm for your right to buy any distasteful symbol you like, and display it how you like, and I think the majority of America is as well. I also believe you will provoke some interesting communication your way, as is also correct and right. But we, as citizens in the US, shouldn't fly that outdated symbol from public buildings. That is a symbol associated with a culture, counter to our current, which predominantly held slavery to be a cornerstone of its being. The majority of us are way beyond those days here in the US.

I agree, the media echo chamber, and the rule by "political correctness cyber mob" is also a serious issue. Again, this is what is motivating the companies to duck and cover. (There are more people with $ that may be pissed off, than more $ that may be gained by selling = let's take some precaution here.)

I think our internet/media-mob mentality, and the divisiveness caused by new media communication, is a new dynamic we haven't fully figured out yet. It's something I hope I can teach my kids to deal with. Admittedly, I've learned a ton over the past 10 years, watching the public, our media, and the government all mix it up on the net.

Rew says

I'm for your right to buy any distasteful symbol you like, and display it how you like, and I think the majority of America is as well. I also believe you will provoke some interesting communication your way, as is also correct and right. But we, as citizens in the US, shouldn't fly that outdated symbol from public buildings. That is a symbol associated with a culture, counter to our current, which predominantly held slavery to be a cornerstone of its being. The majority of us are way beyond those days here in the US.

Nice!