patrick.net

More than anything it is ignorance, and the desire to shift responsibility from the self to someone else (Jesus, God, Satan, etc. )

Dan8267 says

Sam Harris simply destroys Christianity

Every word uttered by Sam Harris is nothing short of brilliant.

Indiana Jones says

More than anything it is ignorance,

You cannot refute a single word Harris stated in the video.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Sam Harris simply destroys Christianity

Every word uttered by Sam Harris is nothing short of brilliant.

Indiana Jones says

More than anything it is ignorance,

You cannot refute a single word Harris stated in the video.

Yes, I agree. Christianity is ignorance, not Sam Harris.

Indiana Jones says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Sam Harris simply destroys Christianity

Every word uttered by Sam Harris is nothing short of brilliant.

Indiana Jones says

More than anything it is ignorance,

You cannot refute a single word Harris stated in the video.

Yes, I agree. Christianity is ignorance, not Sam Harris.

I misunderstood. Sorry.

That's okay. I forgive you. Unless you are a Baby Boomer! ; )

Never trust anyone over 50 and under 68!

Dan8267 says

religion (particularly Christianity)

Poignantly, the video comes from the (Catholic) University of Notre Dame, in Indiana. I've never seen, nor even heard of, a comparable video from an Islamic university. I shudder to think what might happen to Sam Harris if he made analagous remarks there, or (heaven forbid) drew a cartoon.

What European state, that ended in 1870 by annexation, made Jews wear Yellow Stars and live in Ghettos? And spent the 19th and early 20th Century publishing across Europe in a multitude of their papers insisting that Jews not be granted citizenship but remain outsiders in the countries they resided? That had the last existing Ghetto in Western Europe?

God bless the Illuminati, or the Republicans, or the Anticlericalists, or the Secular Humanists, and certainly the Great Enlightenment for disempowering all the dumb religions. The Nazis were the last ditch reaction attempt to crush the Enlightenment. Far from being anti-religious, all the Fascist regimes of Europe believed strongly in Nationalist Purity and Religion. From Spain to Austria.

And God Bless France. Liberty, Equality, Fraternity!
http://www.youtube.com/embed/PT7sT1-wLYg

What about the Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Yes, carb is evil, but people love pasta.

Peter P says

What about the Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Yes, carb is evil, but people love pasta.

Blasphemy Blasphemy. Bring out the guillotine.

thunderlips11 says

The Nazis were the last ditch reaction attempt to crush the Enlightenment.

I think you meant Reaganomics.

Strategist says

Peter P says

What about the Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Yes, carb is evil, but people love pasta.

Blasphemy Blasphemy. Bring out the guillotine.

You mean the colander?

Peter P says

Strategist says

Peter P says

What about the Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Yes, carb is evil, but people love pasta.

Blasphemy Blasphemy. Bring out the guillotine.

You mean the colander?

Look you damn infidels, let me make myself clear....
We love our Spaghetti Monster more than our children. Anyone who dare insults, draws cartoons, or even thinks negative of our Spaghetti Monster (Pasta sauce be upon him) will face the ultimate price. Is that clear?

Strategist says

Anyone who dare insults, draws cartoons, or even thinks negative of our Spaghetti Monster (Pasta sauce be upon him) will face the ultimate price.

Like, no more all-you-can-eat pasta?

Strategist says

Peter P says

Strategist says

Peter P says

What about the Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Yes, carb is evil, but people love pasta.

Blasphemy Blasphemy. Bring out the guillotine.

You mean the colander?

Look you damn infidels, let me make myself clear....

We love our Spaghetti Monster more than our children. Anyone who dare insults, draws cartoons, or even thinks negative of our Spaghetti Monster (Pasta sauce be upon him) will face the ultimate price. Is that clear?

Dear Islamists,
Do you see how ridiculous the above statements were? That's how ridiculous we think your beliefs are.

I see the mystery disliker has been through this thread.

Religion is not evil. Taking religion too seriously, or a general lack of humor, is.

There is a difference between Religion and being a Christian.

Peter P says

Religion is not evil. Taking religion too seriously, or a general lack of humor, is.

No, religion is intrinsically evil and is a threat that should be taken seriously. Taking religion as being correct to any degree is wrong.

Religion is fundamentally based on falsehoods, and any power structure based on lies is going to be corrupt and evil.

Dan8267 says

Taking religion as being correct to any degree is wrong.

Taking religion as being correct to any degree *is* taking religion too seriously.

Dan8267 says

Religion is fundamentally based on falsehoods, and any power structure based on lies is going to be corrupt and evil.

I reject foundationalism, hence I do not agree with your statement.

Power structure based on lies is not unlike any power structure. Power *is* the structure.

Peter P says

Taking religion as being correct to any degree *is* taking religion too seriously.

"Serious" isn't really the word you want. I take religion seriously. I know it's all bullshit, but it's dangerous bullshit and thus serious.

Peter P says

I reject foundationalism

Fundamentalism and extremism are just marketing terms. They have no objective meaning. Belief in any superstition is a dangerous delusion because making any important decision on false information is dangerous.

Dan8267 says

Fundamentalism and extremism are just marketing terms. They have no objective meaning. Belief in any superstition is a dangerous delusion because making any important decision on false information is dangerous.

Well, I said foundationalism, especially in an epistemological context.

We make decisions based on incomplete or false information all the time. Sometimes it is a application of game theory, sometimes we just call it speculation. Who cares if it is profitable? :-)

Have you played Liar Dice?

Dan8267 says

I know it's all bullshit, but it's dangerous bullshit and thus serious.

All forms of crowd madness can be dangerous. Tulipomania. Housing bubble. War.

Peter P says

Well, I said foundationalism, especially in an epistemological context.

My mistake. I thought you misspelled fundamentalism. Spelling and grammar mistakes are common on this site and most forums.

Nonetheless, it does not affect the validity of my position. Religion is intrinsically bad for the reasons I gave.

Peter P says

We make decisions based on incomplete or false information all the time.

We make decisions based on incomplete information because it is the best we can do at times. We never seek to make the information we have incorrect and no sane person acts on what he or she knows to be a false premise.

For example, recently as 12-year-old girl killed herself so that she could be with her recently deceased father in heaven. If the Christian afterlife is real, then her decision makes sense and there is no tragedy. Her decision was wise and we should respect, if not out-right encourage, other children to make this same decision.

However, if the Christian after life is a lie, which we all know it is, than this is a grave tragedy and we should try to convince other children to not make this decision.

So we have polar opposite conclusions resulting from simply flipping the truth bit on a premise. The truth of the premise materially matters. It's not a wash. If you think it's insignificant, then image your child killing himself or herself because of the lie of the afterlife.

Peter P says

All forms of crowd madness can be dangerous. Tulipomania. Housing bubble. War.

Religion is a significant and common enough principle cause of evil, suffering, and death that its opposition in particular is merited. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. Religion is one of the primary mistakes repeated throughout history. It's worth learning to avoid that mistake, especially in an age where mankind could destroy itself from nuclear annihilation or global ecological collapse.

Dan8267 says

So we have polar opposite conclusions resulting from simply flipping the truth bit on a premise. The truth of the premise materially matters. It's not a wash. If you think it's insignificant, then image your child killing himself or herself because of the lie of the afterlife.

I just believe that non-trivial truths are non-observable and unknowable. Betting on an afterlife with one's life sounds like bad odds to me.

One ought to choose a religion that improves his life on *this* world.

Dan8267 says

Peter P says

All forms of crowd madness can be dangerous. Tulipomania. Housing bubble. War.

Religion is a significant and common enough principle cause of evil, suffering, and death that its opposition in particular is merited. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. Religion is one of the primary mistakes repeated throughout history. It's worth learning to avoid that mistake, especially in an age where mankind could destroy itself from nuclear annihilation or global ecological collapse.

They are all about the same: people choosing to believe in something over other things and doing so in herd.

That said, what makes religion special is that it specifically manipulates one's sense of morality.

Speaking of religions...

Can't wait for Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt to come out:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Hl4bOuGNMwo

This example cherry-picks certain tenants of Christianity while ignoring others, resulting in a false conclusion.
If one is to believe the christian after-life is real, then one must also assume most of the important baggage that goes along with it is true.
Under Christianity, it's a mortal sin to commit suicide, you go straight to hell without passing GO and collecting 200...
This blows your example right out of the water....sorry!

Dan8267 says

For example, recently as 12-year-old girl killed herself so that she could be with her recently deceased father in heaven. If the Christian afterlife is real, then her decision makes sense and there is no tragedy. Her decision was wise and we should respect, if not out-right encourage, other children to make this same decision.

It's a grave tragedy either way.
If it's true she goes straight to hell for self-terminating, no paternal visits...

Dan8267 says

However, if the Christian after life is a lie, which we all know it is, than this is a grave tragedy and we should try to convince other children to not make this decision.

of course, if it's true, some of the tragedy would be mitigated if she were a barbecue enthusiast.

Peter P says

Betting on an afterlife with one's life sounds like bad odds to me.

Feel free to show your math. The very term "odds" implies some kind of calculation.

Sounds more like a cop out. I really believe that the afterlife is bullshit, but I don't want to come right out and say that.

Peter P says

That said, what makes religion special is that it specifically manipulates one's sense of morality.

What you call special, I call evil. If one is on the side of good and truly believes in good, then one doesn't have to manipulate other people's sense of morality. The math, the science, the empirical evidence will all show that good makes for a happier and better world than evil. So good has nothing to gain from lies and deceit of any sort.

SoftShell says

If one is to believe the christian after-life is real, then one must also assume most of the important baggage that goes along with it is true.

Under Christianity, it's a mortal sin to commit suicide, you go straight to hell without passing GO and collecting 200...

If one believes that than the inescapable conclusion is that the Christian god is motherfucking evil. The Christian Hell is an eternity of the worst kind of torture possible. Existence in hell is worse than being raped. So, god condemning a 12-year-old girl to hell is condemning the girl to be repeatedly raped (or worse) for all eternity. Even Adolph Hitler wasn't nearly that evil. God would be the worst kind of pedophile serial rapist if that were true.

In any case, your proposition is irrelevant. The 12-year-old girl did not believe she was going to hell; she believed she would go to heaven and see her dad. And she got this idea from her Christian religion. Therefore, Christianity has done her a terrible, terrible service.

But hey, there are plenty of other situations that demonstrate that you, personally, don't accept the Christian afterlife myth when push comes to shove. If a man breaks into your house and starts raping your family to death, according to Christianity, you should turn the other cheek. It is far better to die being raped than to commit an act of violence against your attacker and save your family. In fact, the attacker is doing your family a favor. They will be in paradise tonight.

If you truly believe the Christian fairytale, then you gladly allow your family to be raped to death. It's not a big deal, and they'll all be better off in heaven shortly. No reason to sacrifice your immortal soul by killing the attacker. Your family will want to see you in heaven with them, so you'd better wait your turn to get raped and killed.

Dan8267 says

Sounds more like a cop out. I really believe that the afterlife is bullshit, but I don't want to come right out and say that.

Well, I have fundamental respect for all religions. ;-)

Dan8267 says

What you call special, I call evil.

I no longer believe in good-versus-evil. That trope is as harmful as religion itself. Things are better or worse. And they are relative and subjective.

Dan8267 says

Feel free to show your math. The very term "odds" implies some kind of calculation.

A bet needs not involve numeric calculations. It can be quite intuitive. I know a sucker bet when I see one.

Dan8267 says

If one is on the side of good and truly believes in good, then one doesn't have to manipulate other people's sense of morality.

"Morality" is nothing but a narrative. Either you buy it or not. Life has much to do with getting your narrative accepted. There is no absolute.

Adopting a religion is buying into its narratives. This alone can be costly if one is not careful.

Peter P says

Well, I have fundamental respect for all religions.

You shouldn't. Respect is something that applies to people, not things, and it's something that must be earned.

Peter P says

I no longer believe in good-versus-evil. That trope is as harmful as religion itself.

Nazism is evil. Raping babies is evil. Drowning puppies in a river is evil.

Religion is not the same thing as a moral code. A moral code is not the same thing as an understanding of good and evil. One can discuss and understand good and evil without the supernatural, without any god, without any faith, and without any religion. Good and evil can, and have been, mathematically modeled.

Saying that distinguishing between moral right and wrong is meaningless is simply not true. We are not an amoral species. No social species on this planet is amoral.

Peter P says

I know a sucker bet when I see one.

You can only know something if you can prove it. Otherwise you only think you know it.

People often "know" things that are untrue. People even hold two contradicting beliefs at the same time and they are certain of both of them.

Peter P says

"Morality" is nothing but a narrative.

Not from my perspective. Morality is a design, not absolute, but also not arbitrary. It's grounded in the laws of mathematics and nature like the design of a bridge. There are many ways to design a bridge or a moral system, but some ways are a hell of a lot better than others. In most designs the bridge collapses under it's own weight. A good design ensures a functional and safe bridge. A good morality ensures a cooperative and happy society. These things can be objectively studied, measured, explained, and predicted. Morality is a science like anything else worth discussing.

If you buy that afterlife stuff is true, then you also must buy suicide is a mortal sin.
Whether she knew that part is irrelevant to my argument, which is your post below does not hold water.

You state that we should "out-right encourage, other children to make this same decision".

Yet we, unlike her, given the above assumptions, know that she is committing a mortal sin and will burn. So given that why would we 'out-right encourage' others to make the same mistake?

The other stuff about the god being worse than shit is irrelevant to my post.

SoftShell

says

Dan8267 says

For example, recently as 12-year-old girl killed herself so that she

could be with her recently deceased father in heaven. If the Christian afterlife is

real, then her decision makes sense and there is no tragedy. Her decision was wise

and we should respect, if not out-right encourage, other children to make this same

decision.

Dan8267

says

In any case, your proposition is irrelevant. The 12-year-old girl did not

believe she was going to hell; she believed she would go to heaven and see her dad.

And she got this idea from her Christian religion. Therefore, Christianity has done

her a terrible, terrible service.

you can stop right there. I don't need the push or shove...

Dan8267 says

But hey, there are plenty of other situations that demonstrate that you, personally, don't accept the Christian afterlife myth when push comes to shove.

SoftShell says

If you buy that afterlife stuff is true, then you also must buy suicide is a mortal sin.

Whether she knew that part is irrelevant to my argument

Actually, according to Christian mythology, one does have to know that something is a sin in order for it to be a sin. Criminal intent might not be important to our legal system, but it is important to the Christian religions. So, if the girl honestly thought that suicide wasn't a sin, then it wasn't according to Christian lore.

Never argue the lore of your religion with an atheist. He's an atheist because he's studied your religion in depth.

SoftShell says

The other stuff about the god being worse than shit is irrelevant to my post.

It's quite relevant to the discussion of Christianity and how abysmal it is both practically and morally. And it fits in well with the original post's video.

Peter P says

Religion is not evil. Taking religion too seriously, or a general lack of humor, is.

Islam is evil.

so what is it called when an atheist argues the lore of a religion that he is projecting onto you, that you have no part of?

Oh wait, I know....Liberal Logic!

Dan8267 says

Never argue the lore of your religion with an atheist.