patrick.net

I am still trying to understand what the Captain is trying to say??

Here's the problem I have with this.... It's the idea that suicide is a death of dignity. Well, what about people who fight a disease with every ounce of will they have? Is their death "undignified," somehow?

I knew a guy who in his late thirties was diagnosed with some hideous form of bile duct cancer and given six months to live. He was a warrior who managed to survive for four more years. His death was a foregone conclusion, but he had three little kids (two were babies at the time of his diagnosis), and he desperately wanted some time with them. He suffered through some terrible treatments and hoped for a miracle. He couldn't be cured, but his kids got a chance for a few brief years with their dad... A chance they wouldn't have had if he hadn't fought.

To each her own, but here's what I do know... 1) Miracles sometimes happen; 2) You never know what tomorrow might bring. If you haven't the will and you haven't the hope then you will never know what's possible. JMHO.

turtledove says

Here's the problem I have with this.... It's the idea that suicide is a death of dignity. Well, what about people who fight a disease with every ounce of will they have? Is their death "undignified," somehow?

Somebody gets it. You guys are just taking some of things I said to support my stance and are taking it out of context or just making my whole statement about that. This is wrong on so many levels no one single thing is my argument nor what I am trying to say. Other than the media and social media trivializing a suicide.

So, she was a histrionic attention diva with a brain tumor. If it were contagious, I would have invited the Kardashians.

suicide of a terminally ill person in the last month of their existence under extreme pain is neither dignified or undignified.
what it is is nobody elses fuckin business.

turtledove says

It's the idea that suicide is a death of dignity. Well, what about people who fight a disease with every ounce of will they have? Is their death "undignified," somehow?

SoftShell says

suicide of a terminally ill person in the last month of their existence under extreme pain is neither dignified or undignified.

what it is is nobody elses fuckin business.

Unless they make a public flipbook out of it.

At least this person is an inspiration.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/11/03/lauren-hill-basketball/?intcmp=latestnews

turtledove says

To each her own, but here's what I do know... 1) Miracles sometimes happen; 2) You never know what tomorrow might bring. If you haven't the will and you haven't the hope then you will never know what's possible. JMHO.

It boils down to personal choices. If that woman can't handle the pain anymore and she is gonna go anyway, let her go if she wants to. If the guy in his 30's wants to hang on to be with his kids, then let him hang on.
By nature humans are pain avoiders and pleasure seekers. Let the individual make the choice. The church or the government has no right to shove their values down anyones throat. The values and beliefs the church holds is simply the opinions of men with no education from a bygone era. I don't need their help, nor do I want their help. I believe I can make better decisions on my own.

It really is that simple...

Strategist says

It boils down to personal choices. If that woman can't handle the pain anymore and she is gonna go anyway, let her go if she wants to. If the guy in his 30's wants to hang on to be with his kids, then let him hang on.

Captain, you have opened a whole new can of worms. Everyone has a strong point of view on this. Reminds me of that Shaivo case a few years ago in Florida.

P N Dr Lo R says

CaptainShuddup says

She killed her self but she's still going to Hell, where she will burn an eternal damnation.

Sad but true. This is what happens when God, the giver and taker of life, is left out of the equation. And not just she, but all who reject Christ. I remember after my cousin Doris (1922-2006) died, we were talking about some of her "Doris-isms" and her granddaughter told about when she introduced one of her Jewish college friends to her and she later said "she seemed like a nice girl, it's a shame she's going to hell."

Does stupidity run in your family?

CaptainShuddup says

She killed her self but she's still going to Hell, where she will burn an eternal damnation.

This is why Christianity is utterly evil. Christians believe in a vile, despicable, evil god that would commit an act far more immoral than anything the character of Satan had done.

That's right, even Satan worshipers have a morally superior god.

CaptainShuddup says

She didn't didn't need to make a political dog and pony show out of it. Nobody goes to jail if she commits suicide, it was totally pointless what she played out in the media.

People, including Jack Kevorkian, have gone to jail for assisting others in euthanasia. That's why this case is most certainly worthy of media coverage.

If you want to debate the morality of euthanasia and suicide, open a thread. I'll gladly take the pro-euthanasia side.

If you want to debate whether or not euthanasia should be legal, again open a thread. I'll gladly take the pro-euthanasia side.

In either debate, I'll kick your ass as there are no merits for the other side.

CaptainShuddup says

Good riddance asshole.

It is an utterly despicable comment to call this woman an asshole for dying with dignity and minimizing her pain. Your comment speaks volume of you and nothing of her.

Dan8267 says

CaptainShuddup says

She killed her self but she's still going to Hell, where she will burn an eternal damnation.

This is why Christianity is utterly evil. Christians believe in a vile, despicable, evil god that would commit an act far more immoral than anything the character of Satan had done.

My stuff goes way over your heads, or you just stop reading when your button gets pushed. I guess that's why you guys all cut and paste content out of context. I was comparing the whole right to die with dignity argument to pose the question. That if there is no God, and there are no consequences for what you do in your life in the hereafter. Then why does anyone need the court's opinion or approval to end their life?

This isn't Rome, you don't get excommunicated, you still get to have a funeral, your corpse isn't abused. The cops aren't going to haul you down to the station and book you and throw you in a cell before the corner comes for the body.

No body thought undignified thoughts about Don Cornelius. Nobody even knew he had cancer. I was relived to hear at least it wasn't depression.

CaptainShuddup says

My stuff goes way over your heads

Perhaps if you improved your writing skills.

Start here.

Cut the Captain some slack. I think he was dealing with some cognitive dossonance over the whole global warming thing.

He's in a very conflicted state right now. Because on the one hand he's excited about how the republicans are going to win tomorrow. But at the same time, on some deep level he knows this is bad for the country.

Hence his cranky old codger mood. He dealing with some very deep conflict over the fact that not only is he going to vote against his own interests tomorrow, he's been acting all proud about it, and saying "in your face liberals" as if liberals really existed anymore.

CaptainShuddup says

My stuff goes way over your heads

No.

It goes under our butts.

HCB Chair BoardOfEqualization says

CaptainShuddup says

My stuff goes way over your heads

No.

It goes under our butts.

That's the spirit, blow it out your ass!

The Christian belief that suicides go to Hell is rooted in Greek philosophy, not the Bible. There is literally no passage that deal with this concept in that book. He only perhaps relevant part would be in the Ten Commandments where people are instructed to "do not murder." That is, if suicide can be said to be a self murder. Then I guess it would be a sin, but you could easily argue that Christ died for our sins, and the Bible refers to death as "a sleep," not a place of judgement and damnation to a mythical hell. The best most relevant passages indicate that the wicked would be consumed by fire in a "second death." An interpretation that makes sense would be that their souls were destroyed rather than resurrected.

"Suicides go to Hell" was probably a perfect philosophical tool to keep the serfs from offing themselves in the dark ages, as their lives were pretty unbearable.

Well said Quigley

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

HOW F*CKING DARE THEY do all of this to YOU

LOL!

It's inspirational to see how stone-age religious beliefs can persist into the present day through ignorance and fear.

HCB Chair BoardOfEqualization says

It's inspirational to see how stone-age religious beliefs can persist into the present day through ignorance and fear.

And Stupidity.

Guilty as Charged

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

CaptainShuddup says

My stuff goes way over your heads

Perhaps if you improved your writing skills.

Maybe it's YOU who needs to improve YOUR reading skills...

Quit your trolling. I offered the Captain useful advice and a free resource where he could improve himself. You are just being a petulant child.

Dan8267 says

Quit your trolling. I offered the Captain useful advice and a free resource where he could improve himself. You are just being a petulant child.

Maybe if the Liberals improved their writting "Content" then they could improve them selves.

YOu know in the end, it's not how you scribbled it's what you scribbled, that matters to 90% of the adult population in the world in almost every culture. Only elitists Liberal morons worry about that type of shit in something as informal as an internet forum or thread. BTW Aholes this isn't even a Blog. The blog is main page that the owner keeps with the message that reflects his purpose of this site with blog and a forum.

CaptainShuddup says

Maybe if the Liberals [sic] improved their writting [sic] "Content" [sic] then they could improve them [sic] selves.

Wow. Like a lecture on morality from Ted Bundy.

Any plans to dump that stupid religion you want the government to foist on everyone else? You know: the one with based on the babblings of ignorant near-savages, wild lies, old wives' tales and gibberish, badly translated into several languages successively?

Good riddance assholes indeed!

CaptainShuddup says

YOu know in the end, it's not how you scribbled it's what you scribbled, that matters to 90% of the adult population in the world in almost every culture.

Which is why you should take a writing course. What you scribe is mostly unintelligible.

Hey guys let me know when my penmanship gets on your nerves!

Strategist says

Captain, this is the most disgusting thread of 2014. It's sickening beyond belief. If anyone needs help, it's you.

The year's not over yet.

CaptainShuddup says

I didn't think she would do it, or at lest not so soon. I didn't post about the news last week on her, because I didn't want to fuel a situation where the thread sounded like it was egging her on.

CaptainShuddup says

The doctor gives everybody pills that will kill you for every ailment known to man.

Do we need a "Special" pill?

Who is this doctor? And why haven't you seen him for your malignant negativity?

http://ezinearticles.com/?Brain-Cancer---7-Questions-on-Glioblastoma-Multiforme&id=4466950

"GBM, as glioblastoma multiforme is called, is the deadliest, most aggressive form of brain malignancy..."

I actually have both personal and professional experience with GBM. This type of tumor is invasive; one day the patient can be independent and the next day the tumor can invade another area of the brain, rendering the patient incapacitated.

I've heard so many people talk about their plan to take enough pills to kill themselves "when the time comes." Unfortunately, by the time a person realizes that the time has come, they're often incapacitated and unable to take the pills.

And then there's the issue of the pills that dear sweet cap'n mentioned - the ones that every doctor prescribes that will kill you. Since everyone is different, a lethal dose differs from person to person.

There's also the issue of obtaining enough medication to kill oneself. Since the medical profession is designed to help the patient either be cured or be comfortable, no physician will prescribe enough to be a lethal dose. It could take months of hoarding in order to obtain enough to possibly be lethal.

The patient might take what he considers to be a lethal dose, but it might not be deadly. If I had a deadly form of cancer and there was no chance that I would recover, it would suck if I tried to end it all and it didn't work. Especially if the overdose created all sorts of other complications, such as ulcers, liver/kidney damage, etc.

We do have a pill that will end one's life. It's legal in Oregon and this woman used it as intended. Why you believe that it's any of your business is beyond me - but pretty much everything you say these days is a negative, angry assertion of facts about which you lack even a rudimentary knowledge.

Cap'n, I realize that you have an opinion on everything and have chosen to share it with the patnet world (rather than to share it with people in the real world). I'm guess it's because you can't find anyone else to listen to your uninformed rants that always end up in blaming Liberals for some imagined transgression.

Age tends to mellow people, unless they are miserable, unhappy curmudgeons who lack the ability to communicate on a personal level. At that point, they often turn to the internet and anonymously pontificate about pretty much everything. Guess which category you fall into?

I don't have any ranks, and that's been the Liberals failing, that they can't seem to grasp. You guys have a ranks, then expect a partisan bipartisan debate.
Meaning you only have one view but you're open to debate a fools argument about two parties.

People start talking about self sufficiency and self reliance, and a government that looks out for little people and keeps big businesses in check with proper regulation and not just oppressive prohibitive pet mandates that creates Monopolies where competition can never expect to get a foothold.

It send you guys into overtime attacking the messenger, then YOU your self conscripted me into the Republican ranks because I wouldn't shut up, and my politics is more Liberal than anything any self admitted liberal on Patnet could ever stomach.

Your Chicken McNuggets are coming home to shit.

CaptainShuddup says

oppressive prohibitive pet mandates

You mean like telling desperately ill people they can't off themselves because of your belief in an invisible cloud being from the era before indoor plumbing?

I never said they can't off them selves in fact I have stated that more than 2 or 3 times in this thread. Your dishonesty is exactly why America has called the Roto Rooter truck out today.

No SHIT you say somebody has ranks?
Call the fucking book of records people!

Why you mad bro?

Let's see. His new icon has shiny teeth and kinda funky shades. But on the other hand, he called a dead woman an asshole. On the balance, he's a jerk.

Why they are all mad...this

GOP seizes Senate

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/04/politics/election-day-story/index.html?hpt=po_c1

CaptainShuddup says

Why you mad bro?

sbh says

Translation into Cap speak:

There is absolutely no translation for the cap'n's words on this one.

On the one hand, he appears to be angry about the medical system paying millions for procedures and treatments that have no positive outcome (and believes it's all the fault of the physicians). On the other hand he appears to believe that this woman diagnosed with a terminal disease should remain alive, receiving costly treatment.

He also has the audacity to call a dead woman with terminal cancer - whom he has never met - an "asshole."

Apparently he doesn't have a mirror.

elliemae says

diagnosed with a terminal disease should remain alive, receiving costly treatment.

I don't think he should have called her that, but why at this point wouldn't she have been receiving hospice care since there was no hope of recovery?

You're in the medical profession, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't hospice care kind of evolve because the medical community simply won't accept the fact of death and treats and treats in spite of declining capabilities of the ill person until they are virtually nothing but a living shell that wants to die and probably would have in earlier times. My neighbor's son placed his 89 year old mother in assisted living in December, 2011 when she had already lost many of her mental faculties. By mid-2012 she was in the part where they had to do everything for her, but in 2013 she had some kind of emergency and it became a fullbore effort to save her body from passing on--this dragged on for two months before the end finally came. I don't know what it cost at the end, but expect it was prohibitive although covered. If she had been at home with hospice she could have just gone naturally.

P N Dr Lo R says

You're in the medical profession, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't hospice care kind of evolve because the medical community simply won't accept the fact of death..

Hospice care is a type of care provided at the end of one's life in order to make them as comfortable as possible while the natural process of death proceeds. It can be provided at home, in an ALF, or in a SNF (nursing home). Hospice programs provide equipment, medications and medical care designed to keep the patient as comfortable as possible, while not hastening the patient's death.

Hospice was created to allow patients the choice to die of the disease in as dignified a manner as possible, rather than to go to the hospital to receive treatments that are not only expensive but ineffective for advanced disease processes. Since our hospital system is designed to keep people alive rather than to allow them to die, it gave the hospitals an "out" so that their death rates aren't as high. Yep - hospitals will send an actively dying patient to a hospice to decrease their death rates. If the patient dies in transport, it's not part of the hospital's statistics.

So in your case above (elderly woman in ALF), she could have received hospice care wherever she was. A lot of families have a difficult time letting go and patients go back & forth to the hospital until they die, at a cost of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars (to the Medicare system, of course). Hospice is significantly less costly, both financially & emotionally.

Hospices provide all of the medications and have them delivered to the house - and supplement the care in the home. However, depending upon the patient, the family, and the hospice workers, some patients die in pain. I've met many families who refuse to allow the patient to have stronger meds because they want the patient as alert as possible.

I've seen patients in intractable pain, yet caregivers don't want them medicated. I've seen patients who were so agitated it was painful to watch, but again family members don't want to medicate them. There are also those patients with disease processes that are so incredibly painful (pancreatic cancer & bone cancer come to mind) that it's nearly impossible to make these patients "comfortable."

Many hospice patients do become (to quote you) "virtually nothing but a living shell that wants to die." They just don't do it in the hospital - and hopefully they are medicated and cared for appropriately.

This 29 year old woman who was diagnosed with a terminal disease chose to forego watching her life ebb... she didn't want to become bedbound, incontinent and confused, unable to speak. She chose not to go through the process of being able to function less day-by-day (or being okay one day, and losing function the next). Not knowing whether her family could provide the care she needed, she either chose not to have her family provide 24-hour care, changing & bathing her - or being placed in a nursing home because they couldn't care for her.

I do have intimate experience with this particularly nasty tumor: my step-mother died of a Glio and it took months. The family member in charge of decisions had her admitted to the hospital, a nursing home for rehab, home, hospital, rehab, home, hospital, then home to die. It took about 3 months after she finally was discharged home, during which time she had a private paid caregiver (hospice care supplements but doesn't provide 24-hour care) in the home.

Hospice is good - it does allow for closure. It also allows those people who want to at home to remain there. But it's not always a Hallmark moment. I've seen family fights, caregivers abandon patients, caregivers who appear to be taking the patient's drugs, patients who are mean to the caregivers... I've seen people who wanted to die at home be placed in nursing homes because they couldn't afford caregivers....

I've seen more "functional" deaths than "dysfunctional," but it ain't always a Hollywood movie where everyone comes together and sing Kumbaya.

If it were me, seeing what I've seen, I'd be on my way to Oregon.