patrick.net

Quigley says

1. This is not quite true. It is true that he have state preference to the Russian Orthodox Church, and listens to their suggestions.

Yep - Nobody complains about Roman Catholicism as the official state religion of Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Ireland, and Austria.

Or Lutheranism in Scandinavia.

With the official state religion getting various government subsidies.

Or British religious schools that get funding from Parliament.

It's only bad when Russia does it.

edvard2 says

I was thinking about this last night. Maybe its because I don't have Television anymore, but up until yesterday I was totally unaware that there were American conservatives who seemed to have some admiration Putin or something.

If this is directed at me, I'm not a conservative. I'm a Social Democrat, who believes the best mix of Socialism and Capitalism was achieved in the 50s and 60s in the USA.

The Democrats have moved to the right, both socially, economically, and foreign policy-wise. They are to the right of a 50/60s era liberal Republican on Economic issues.

edvard2 says

Yep- and here's a report that's a year newer than yours:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/31/russian-men-losing-years-to-vodka

This study tracks alcohol consumption in only three cities over 11 years. It does not track alcohol mortality across Russia over 20 years like mine did. It's now lower than since the collapse of the Soviet Union. You'll note the peak of alcoholism occurred under the Neoliberal American Economist Adviser's reign of terror in the mid 90s, the same people who proposed Bank Deregulation and "Destroying the Chinese Wall" between investment and commercial banking.

How many Americans die from Obesity? Is that number declining, or skyrocketing? What real steps, beyond Ad Council PSAs, is the US government taking?

thunderlips11 says

This study tracks alcohol consumption in only three cities over 11 blah blah blah..years. It does not blah blah blah..

Ok, if we're going down to the granular details in typical pissing contest fashion, lets remove the subject of alcohol in general and simply look up some simple stats: what is the average life expectency of the typical Russian male? Here is the result: Somewhere around 63 years. Granted there has been some improvement, but that's still shockingly low. So you have to ask yourself the reasons why its that low. Nuff' said.

But either way, let me ask you something: Would you rather live in Russia or the US and for whichever choice you provide, explain why.

Some other things that are bandied about Russia in this century as if it was the last:

Population Shrinking/Emmigration.

Population just become more naturally stable than Germany's
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2012/07/06/germanys-demographic-crisis-is-now-worse-than-russias/

PCGyver says

Interesting chart. I had a feeling after looking at the mortality rates that a lot of drinking took place right after dissolution of the Soviet Union.

When people say things that are easily shown to be BS it is hard to believe anything else they have to say.

It's an ill wind that blows no minds.

Yep. Russia is just great. I thought I'd heard it wasn't that hard to immigrate there.

edvard2 says

Ok, if we're going down to the granular details in typical pissing contest fashion, lets remove the subject of alcohol in general and simply look up some simple stats: what is the average life expectency of the typical Russian male? Here is the result: Somewhere around 63 years. Granted there has been some improvement, but that's still shockingly low. So you have to ask yourself the reasons why its that low. Nuff' said.

Fine, I accept that.

How fast do you want Russia to recover from the USSR and the 90s Shock Capitalism? Is a near-doubling of the GDP per head in just 12 years not enough? From Sri Lankan levels to Polish levels in a decade?

Poland got billions of USD and Euros in outright cash, low-interest loans, and trade subsidies, post-Soviet Russia is much larger than Poland in both population and land area, yet got a fraction of what Poland got in aid (or loans, unlike EU/US aid to Poland were high-interest and non-guaranteed).

And Poland STILL has mass emmigration, the highest in the EU.

edvard2 says

Yep. Russia is just great. I thought I'd heard it wasn't that hard to immigrate there.

The argument isn't that Russia is a paradise, it is that it is not the horrible demon-land that the MSM makes it out to be. On pretty much every economic metric, Russia is moving on up.

I'd hold dual papers and be a fair weather citizen...

edvard2 says

But either way, let me ask you something: Would you rather live in Russia or the US and for whichever choice you provide, explain why.

thunderlips11 says

Fine, I accept that.

How fast do you want Russia to recover from the USSR and the 90s Shock Capitalism? Is a near-doubling of the GDP per head in just 12 years not enough? From Sri Lankan levels to Polish levels in a decade?

I'm not sure what you are arguing here. There are PLENTY of other countries which are many magnitudes worse off in every way from Russia in terms of their economies, governing systems, and access to clean water, food etc that have avg. life expectancies far higher than Russia and in some cases as high as that of other Western countries. thunderlips11 says

The argument isn't that Russia is a paradise, it is that it is not the horrible demon-land that the MSM makes it out to be. On pretty much every economic metric, Russia is moving on up.

So what is your point then? So there are some misconceptions... Ok, I can buy that because every country has misconceptions. If you want a perfect example you should read what the Russian media says about the US. But none of that really excuses Russia's actions of late.

SoftShell says

I'd hold dual papers and be a fair weather citizen...

Excellent, Comrade!

The smart money should be put on the country with the location most likely to survive global warming, whereever that may be.

edvard2 says

SoftShell says

I'd hold dual papers and be a fair weather citizen...

Excellent, Comrade!

Edvard said, "But that's enough of that nonsense. Let's talk a little about reality. The reality of the situation is that Putin has greatly reduced the amount of freedom in Russia, basically taking back control of the media and severely limiting free speech."

Here in America we have free speech and free press, unless you happen to be a journalist working for any news organization in main stream media. Then you better goddam report the stories your wealthy elite handlers tell you to or you're out of a job, Bucko!
We also have truly free presses, mostly in form of Internet media and the blogosphere. But the rulers have hired lots of schills like edvard to discredit these as much as possible, and discredit anyone who can't stomach the mainstream media "news."

Real goddam free.

Plus we have gays all over the place .

Ask Edward Snowden how free the speech is in America. Oh that's right, he moved to Russia!

http://mashable.com/2014/08/06/putin-approval-rating/

Putin's approval rating hits 87%.

Obama's just hit 39%.

Whose citizens are more content?

Case closed.

Quigley says

Putin's approval rating hits 87%.

Obama's just hit 39%.

Whose citizens are more content?

Case closed.

Pretty meaningless for a number of reasons given that A: if you are Russian then you'd BETTER approve of the President and B: Their media is state-owned, and C: a surprisingly large number of Americans supported Bush too despite the rest of the world wondering What the fuck?

Quigley says

Here in America we have free speech and free press, unless you happen to be a journalist working for any news organization in main stream media. Then you better goddam report the stories blah blah blah blah Bucko!

So... let me ask you a question, in fact the same one that went un-answered from thunderlips.

Question: Would you rather live in the US or Russia and depending on your answer, give reasons for your choice.

SoftShell says

The smart money should be put on the country with the location most likely to survive global warming, whereever that may be.

Like I said.... excellent comrade! We don't need no stinking pollution controls on our coal plants!

The ones who can say any shit that comes to mind on patnet.
if you are russian, fergetaboutit....

Quigley says

Putin's approval rating hits 87%.

Obama's just hit 39%.

Whose citizens are more content?

why not?
why do you hate 'air'??

edvard2 says

Like I said.... excellent comrade! We don't need no stinking pollution controls on our coal plants!

SoftShell says

why not?

why do you hate 'air'??

Because clean air is an American conspiracy!

Also, if Russia is a human rights hellhole that deserves sanctions, what about Saudi Arabia and China, Brunei, Vietnam, Dubai, etc.?

When you look at what the US does as if it was an Empire, it makes a lot more sense than viewing it through Democracy/Human Rights advocate lens. Human Rights is used like WW1 "The Huns are eating the children" of the modern era.

Human Rights abuses are:

* touted and oft exaggerated in countries where the US wants to intervene (Pussy Riot in Russia, Saddam's Iraq, Syria, Libya)
* somewhat discussed where the US doesn't really care (ie Central African Machete Parties, General Buck Naked in Liberia)
* and ignored when they are strategic allies, for instance:

The beheading of "Witches and Sorcerers" and total lack of democracy in Saudi Arabia, the crushing of democracy protesters in Bahrain, Slavery in Dubai, Military Coup in Egypt, Brunei's new anti-gay laws, Vietnamese Oligarch's crackdown on striking workers and total control of the press, Massive Filipino Corruption, etc etc etc).

If you want to know why America is in decline, take a look at our discretionary spending and where it goes to - how it's being paid for and what it isn't being spent on.

If you want to keep America Strong, redirect our massive discretionary spending on intelligence and military expeditionary forces and overpriced boondoggle Jets to fixing the infrastructure, increasing employment, reducing the trade imbalance, stopping corporate inversion, pursing full employment policies, enhancing prestige with world astounding manned Martian Landings, and make banking boring again.

Thunderlips said, "If you want to keep America Strong, redirect our massive discretionary spending on intelligence and military expeditionary forces and overpriced boondoggle Jets to fixing the infrastructure, increasing employment, reducing the trade imbalance, stopping corporate inversion, pursing full employment policies, enhancing prestige with world astounding manned Martian Landings, and make banking boring again."

Yes, especially the last bit!

thunderlips11 says

You mean we make it worse. Christians, Druze, Alawites, Yezadi, Sunni-not-sunni-enough and others weren't butchered in Iraq or Syria, until the Muslim Radicals came along, because of the chaos we created.

How about we mind our own business?

When are we gonna stop blaming the US for everything with this kind of logic? Shouldn't people take responsibility for their own actions?
The Chinese invented gunpowder, so no modern war can ever be our fault.

Convenient neither one of the guys I asked answered my question. So which is it guys? Would you two rather live in Russia or the US? Oh- and don't forget the other part of the question: Provide reasons for whatever choice is made.

edvard2 says

Convenient neither one of the guys I asked answered my question. So which is it guys? Would you two rather live in Russia or the US? Oh- and don't forget the other part of the question: Provide reasons for whatever choice is made.

US. I like to vote for the guy who is gonna screw me.

edvard2 says

Pretty meaningless for a number of reasons given that A: if you are Russian then you'd BETTER approve of the President and B: Their media is state-owned, and C: a surprisingly large number of Americans supported Bush too despite the rest of the world wondering What the fuck?

There's precedent for a very popular Elected official - when you feel your country is under threat by outside powers:

And when you experience 1950s levels of growth, you get charts like:

Between high levels of economic growth, AND restored prestige, AND a threat by the usual suspects*, it's not surprising Putin is very popular.

Usual Suspects: Catholic-Protestant Europeans

The lesser known Crusades - the Northern or Baltic Crusades, against Slavic Pagans AND Eastern Orthodox Christians in today's Northwestern Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky
But also, the Great Northern War to retake Russian lands seized by Swedish Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_War
Forgotten:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_war
And of course,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia
And duh,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarossa

I'm sure there are other European acts of aggession on Russia I've forgotten.

The British sent men following WWI because they heard the Siberian flank was totally unguarded. It wasn't. The Cossacks routed them.

On the other hand:

Russia first country to recognize USA, releases claims on Pac NW to USA, supports Union in Civil War, sold Alaska to the USA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_and_the_American_Civil_War#American_Civil_War
Russia Fought with Allies in WW1
Fought with Allies in WW2
Russia sends military aircraft to Iraq under ISIS Siege
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/world/middleeast/iraq.html
They have probably been bombing ISIS positions for a week now.

How is it Russia has fought on our side in the two main conflicts of the last century, supported the Union Side in the Civil War the most crucial war in US history, yet the MSM is propagandizing against it constantly?

Because Russia is growing economically, and could be a world class rival again.

Banksters want cheap assets; they don't want competition to bid on those assets, and they definitely don't want nationalistic countries with vast land masses controlling "Their" oil, gas, nickel, etc.

Strategist says

When are we gonna stop blaming the US for everything with this kind of logic? Shouldn't people take responsibility for their own actions?

When the Politicians want to stay in Iraq, it's the Pottery Barn Rule:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottery_Barn_rule
Kerry vs. Bush in 2004, using the Pottery Barn quote of Colin Powell:
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c433806/clip-presidential-candidates-debate-full-screen

Once they decide to mess around elsewhere instead and leave the country in chaos - "Stop blaming America!"

thunderlips11 says

On the other hand:

Russia first country to recognize USA, releases claims on Pac NW to USA, supports Union in Civil War, sold Alaska to the USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_and_the_American_Civil_War#American_Civil_War

Russia Fought with Allies in WW1

Fought with Allies in WW2

Russia sends military aircraft to Iraq under ISIS Siege

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/world/middleeast/iraq.html

They have probably been bombing ISIS positions for a week now.

How is it Russia has fought on our side in the two main conflicts of the last century, but the MSM is propagandizing against it constantly?

Because Russia is growing economically, and could be a world class rival again.

Didn't Kruschchev promise to Bury Us?

PCGyver says

Your question is pretty lame.

And how is that I might ask? We have these guys here who seem to be going on and on about oh-how-great Russia and Putin is and all that as if its some sort of paradise. And yet they live here in the US where (ironically) they can freely sit there and say whetever they want and not worry about it because you know- we have this thing called Freedom of speech?

And so hence I asked the question. The reason I asked was because these folks are making these comments without any real knowledge of what Russia is like and as such, not sure they're really such an authority on how grrrrrreat it is.

Either way, I mentally make a note of the week's dumbest post ( or at least the general content within) and this one wins! ding ding ding!!!

Anyway, enough of the silliness for one day. Its the weekend. Hooray.

All done with your shilling for the week and time to go home! What a workweek for you edvard2!

Strategist says

Didn't Kruschchev promise to Bury Us?

in our own trash, yes.

He did promise - but it was China who succeeded!

And Kruschev was a Ukrainian ;)

edvard2 says

We have these guys here who seem to be going on and on about oh-how-great Russia and Putin is and all that as if its some sort of paradise.

I don't think it's about how great Putin is, it's about how bad the last 2 US presidencies were/are, Obama has been closing in on Bush fast. Also, in this specific matter, if you took the time and read everything that has surfaced regarding the meddling in the Ukraine, then ex-KGB comrade Putin (certainly not a clean guy) really looks like an angel compared to Nuland and the CIA. Nuland should be arrested and tried.

edvard2 says

Yep. Russia is just great. I thought I'd heard it wasn't that hard to immigrate there.

Geez louise. it is not about whether Russia is great or not. It is about whether Putin is good for Russia or not, and whether Russia is now again moving in the right direction.

For one, Putin is undoing the shock capitalism (thunderlips11 phrase) of the 1990s. He is taking back the ill-gotten gains from that nasty bunch of oligarchs.

THAT is the real reason that the US neocons are so against Putin. Putin refuses to have Russia roll over and be pillaged by western hypercapitalists and their accomplices in the US state department and the DoD.

Ukraine is a prime example of the US intentionally stirring up trouble so that the capitalists can take over and steal all the land, all the resources and (dare I use that phrase) all the means of production.

Edvard2, you are a self-professed Democrat and not a neocon. How can you possibly be against Putin fighting back against the above?

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

Didn't Kruschchev promise to Bury Us?

in our own trash, yes.

We buried Soviet Communism without firing a shot because the Soviets could not keep up with the wealth, prosperity and technology we generated. Gorbachev threw in the towel and ended up with the Peace Prize. He is my hero.

justme says

He is taking back the ill-gotten gains from that nasty bunch of oligarchs.

LOL wut? He is taking ill-gotten gains from his oligarch friends Tymchenko, Rotenberg, Sechin? Are you for real?

It's a cold day in hell when I nearly fully agree with Mish Shedlock about something. Brrrr....

---------------

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/08/small-price-to-pay.html

In response to Russia Fires Back With More Sanctions: NASA, Pepsi, McDonald's, Autos in Spotlight a close friend responded "It's a small price to pay to counter naked aggression."

Questions

Naked aggression by whom? Who started this mess?
Who fomented the overthrow of former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych.? Was it Russia or the US?
What country reneged on promises to not expand NATO into Eastern Europe? Was it Russia or the US?
What country has satellite coverage of the region and has failed to produce any evidence as to where Buk missile launchers were on the day MH17 crashed? Russia or the US?
What country stood the most to gain from the downing of MH17?
Why was MH17 rerouted far from its normal flight path to fly directly over a war zone?

---------------------------------

Straw Man says

justme says

He is taking back the ill-gotten gains from that nasty bunch of oligarchs.

LOL wut? He is taking ill-gotten gains from his oligarch friends Tymchenko, Rotenberg, Sechin? Are you for real?

Yes, I am for real. Let us take a look at that list of 3 names that you produced:

Tymchenko is a Ukrainian, and not a Russian oligarch

Rotenberg is a personal and now wealthy friend of Putin, not listed as an oligarch in the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_oligarch

Sechin is the President of Rosneft, which is majority-owned by the Russian State (the Russian people, if I need to spell that out for you). How does that make him an oligarch? He is the President of a company owned by the Russian people!

It appears to me that you have listened to the propaganda from the real oligarchs and the US media, who claim that Putin is enriching himself and his friends. I don't think so. I think Putin is taking the previously stolen companies and returning them to state ownership.

And THAT is the reason why the western oligarchs are mongering war in Eastern Europe.

By the way, here is a list of the top 30 wealthiest Russians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_people_by_net_worth

Tymchenko is not on the list

Rotenberg is number 28

Sechin is not on the list

Need I say more? It is just propaganda that Putin is trying to enrich his "friends".

Here's an article with some details on how the oligarchs stole the property of the Russian people, and some material on Putin and his handling of the oligarchs. Excatly how accurate this article is is hard to say, but it is interesting reading.

http://www.cfr.org/world/putin-oligarchs/p8018

The impression is that Putin kid-gloved many oligarchs from 2000-2004 and then afterwards went after them with a vengeance. That is not being friendly to oligarchs, that is simply smart politics.

Serial Unilateral "Humanitarian" Interventionist US tells Russia they can't supply Humanitarian Aid to the Donbass without international permission.

Russia sends a big convoy anyway.
http://www.T5RI30RJIPk

I used to love when that song would come on at a dance or a Disco.
People would just look confused as they tapped their feet to the beat of the music.

Then the next song would be something like "Holiday Delight" by the sugar hill gang.

And they would still be doing the same thing, just bobbing up and down with the beat as well.