patrick.net

I think it needs more of this...

Ok, so who's up, for the science and engineering welfare state?

I like it a lot.

But unfortunately, since no deep pockets entities benefit from such a system, how can it ever come to exist ? Who's going to lobby for it ?

What, do you think politicians could ever get behind an idea that makes a lot of sense, just because it makes a lot of sense ? Who's going to bribe the politicians to implement this ?

My guess is that in some distant future more socialist world, people who jump through various hoops such as the exams you mention, as well doing other forms of service, perhaps in education, or mentoring younger students, will get a decent stipend. But so will most others who are put to some activity (some more useful than others).

The main difference from now, is that the profit motive, while still there, will not be the sole reason for doing work in nearly all jobs.

I think the economic system that works best, has probably yet to be invented, but it will be some sort of capitalist/socialist hybrid. There's a lot of room for devising incentives for efficiency, when the profit motive is not in play.

I have to believe if man is around for a couple more millennia (or more), current times will be looked back on as being fairly primitive and corrupt. And who knows ? Maybe some of the big changes are coming pretty soon, because of automation, and because of population leveling off fairly soon.

Can the stipend be tax free?

New Renter says

Can the stipend be tax free?

SS taxes, yes, Fed no. Thus, you better find a way of shacking up with some friends at Texas A&M or Univ of New Hampshire, the states w/o state taxes.

humanity says

I think the economic system that works best, has probably yet to be invented, but it will be some sort of capitalist/socialist hybrid. There's a lot of room for devising incentives for efficiency, when the profit motive is not in play.

Yes, this is definitely in some future time period, not today's generation.

humanity says

Who's going to lobby for it ?

When I become independently wealthy, that's what I'll do.

Teach everyone sarcasm - that'll work out great!

Sarcasm and verbal irony are such awesome human-interface skills, creating good feelings and strengthening relationships, particularly marriages.

And sarcasm is so economically productive!

Rin says

The military will also provide some subsidized housing in a coastal area in the Carolinas, next to a base and thus, provide added security.

Why the Carolinas?

The military also has a highly secure facility a bit northwest of Las Vegas that could serve the purpose too.

If you did this, I would become a professional test taker. I have the ability to pretty much take any test in science or math if you give me a week to prepare. I just have to read a textbook or two and go in to take it. Taking tests and reading textbooks doesn't make a good scientist. It gets their brain rolling and develops a thought process. Working in a lab investigating or building something on your own is what makes a good scientist.

theoakman says

If you did this, I would become a professional test taker. I have the ability to pretty much take any test in science or math if you give me a week to prepare. I just have to read a textbook or two and go in to take it. Taking tests and reading textbooks doesn't make a good scientist. It gets their brain rolling and develops a thought process. Working in a lab investigating or building something on your own is what makes a good scientist.

Here's the thing ... we know that exams aren't the heart and soul of scientific research or creativity, however, you've got to start somewhere.

Sure, you, New Renter, & I can take S&E exams and regularly get A-'s & A's, however, in our daily life, none of that stuff had brought us the free time and space, to do what we like. Instead, at best, it helped in admissions to some professional or graduate school, with only the MD school, guaranteeing any sort of payday by being a pill pusher or butcher (ala surgeon).

The key here is that a certain cutoff in society, will be given the freedom, to study S&E material and work on their own stuff. Sure, some will blow it, and probably host parties, beach volleyball tournaments, etc, however, I'd also imagine that gatherings of generally bright persons, may also result in some creative projects and so forth.

And that's what matters. When you give freedom to relatively smart ppl, they become creative. This is just natural. If Leonardo daVinci was forced to work 90 hrs per week, at Morgan & Stanley, to pay off his loans to Penn, I'd imagine he'd be suicidal by year no two. Instead, if Leo simply took those Aerospace Engineering exams during HS, after all, he was smart enough for that, he'd be on sponsorship by the age of 18. Then, we'd see all sorts of bright ideas coming out of this guy than in seeing him get his 5 mins of fame, as he dangles himself off a skyscraper in Lower Manhattan.

New Renter says

Why the Carolinas?

The military also has a highly secure facility a bit northwest of Las Vegas that could serve the purpose too.

Think warm waters for swimming.

Rin says

Think warm waters for swimming.

True, even La Jolla is a bit chilly.

I recently met a person who has worked in Brazil. He had very good things to say about Natal - cheap housing, great climate, fantastic beaches, warm ocean, and geographically a good stepping point to Europe and the USA.

He also claimed the local economy isn't particularly good and that the young men are sent south to find work while the young women remain. This - supposedly - leaves a ratio of eight young women per young man.

Sounds like a great place to set up a STEM think tank to me.

New Renter says

while the young women remain. This - supposedly - leaves a ratio of eight young women per young man.

Sounds like a great place to set up a STEM think tank to me

Brazil's a totally different culture. Even if the ratio was approaching 1:1, women there, try to encourage the guys to dance with them. I only dated one woman in Rio, however, I had anywhere from a half dozen to choose from, if I weren't interested in *finding the one*. They have a natural charm which is difficult to reproduce in the US, outside of let's say the antebellum south.

It's not like these oddball stateside encampments, where a group of women, sit around and only dance with each other, and push encroaching guys, out of the clique. And then all you hear, in the weeks which follow, that there aren't any good guys around. The same goes for Americanized Brazilians, who now think that they're all Gisele Bundchen.

Rin says

It's not like these oddball stateside encampments, where a group of women, sit around and only dance with each other, and push encroaching guys, out of the clique. And then all you hear, in the weeks which follow, that there aren't any good guys around.

Well what do you expect from a clique of HR drones?

What do you mean?

Neil De Grasse will probably be renewed for a second season on Cosmos.

Stephen Hawking and Michio Kaku will write a coffee table book called "The Universe in Glossy Pictures".

Europeans will float more currency to build town sized accelerators that will find particles which make the Tesla's battery run an extra 2% longer.

Climatologists will be given cost of living raises, so long as they predict nothing except what they are told.

The Nobel Prize in Medicine will be given to Barack Obama to coincide with the anniversary of ACA.

(The) Science is alive and thriving!

What gets me, is Sagan opened the series for the original making a case for the existence of God in the face of the Japanese Warrior crab. And Morgan Friedman made an elegant presentation about the Universe with out even the mention of religion, or hinting at the notion the whole premise of his series was to debunk religion and poke a big black Liberal finger in the eyes of the Religious weirdos.

Steven Hawkins said a few years ago that perhaps the Universe was created by God, he was placed in the Iron Maiden, but it was an anticlimactic event, as he can't say anything or show any emotion. So they took the batteries out of his Squawk box.

What a fake condescending pompous Ass. Neils show will be canned half way through this series mark my word. The whole production is just diluted with his agenda injection.

It's a shame, I always like him as the expert in series when more suited people are narrating the Documentaries. As a host, he's not anyone I would want to have a beer, with. I bet he's a flaming asshole to be around.

I don't get his petty segues from "Those no good religious mother fuckers!!" into "See look how pretty, the nebulae are..."

Feck off you Astrophysicist poseur. That's right a fucking interloper!

Real Scientist don't narrate Science with a Fractured Fairy tales, bible lecture.

John Bailo says

Michio Kaku

Isn't this character the academic clown who said that Star War's "The Force" was analogous to the Dark Matter theory, despite the near complete lack of evidence that 'the invisible binding force' even exists, besides the fact that something has to account for the 70% matter needed for gravitational effects to be accounted for?

Rin says

Corporations are offshoring

when half of your customer base is overseas, it makes sense there
is a customer facing organization servicing local needs... it may be
not only sales, but support services and engineering.

Rin says

Thus, for a person who's let's say a biochemical engineer, he might take catalytic processes or mass transport phenomena, so that he keeps his stipend.

all the power to you if you can get over the Environmentalists who are the biggest hurdle to creating jobs in the USA where Chemicals are concerned.

thomaswong.1986 says

Rin says

Thus, for a person who's let's say a biochemical engineer, he might take catalytic processes or mass transport phenomena, so that he keeps his stipend.

all the power to you if you can get over the Environmentalists who are the biggest hurdle to creating jobs in the USA where Chemicals are concerned.

I don't expect the work to come back to America, because all and all, the current zeitgeist of corporate America is Asia-everything, but control the patents/IP. DuPont didn't need to cut 2K to 4K R&D jobs stateside, but they did, neutralizing an entire century of commitment to American industrial R&D. Will that Delaware basin ever come back, outside of a backoffice for banks like BoA and JPM? I don't think so.

With that, as a corporate mindset, we will lose an entire generation of scientist and engineers, if we don't create a society, to help at least preserve the knowledge base and a bit of the creativity needed, if science were to ever have a renaissance in future times. Otherwise, the US will simply be another money laundering country like the City of London, Switzerland, or Panama. Granted, the UK still has universities, like Imperial College & Cambridge, but no one thinks of Britain in terms of R&D.

Rin says

Granted, the UK still has universities, like Imperial College & Cambridge, but no one thinks of Britain in terms of R&D.

Plus, due to current tuition rates and the fact that our best universities, like Penn, are simply grounds to recruit management consultants or financiers, I don't believe the academy is the future either.

Rin says

to help at least preserve the knowledge base and a bit of the creativity needed,

too busy preserving the teacher jobs via unions... you see Engineers
having such equal political power.

thomaswong.1986 says

too busy preserving the teacher jobs via unions... you see Engineers

having such equal political power

Teachers are already obsolete, thanks in part, due to the net. They've outgrown their usefulness, for at least a few decades. It's just that parents are either too overworked or not innovative enough, to educate their own kids through online offerings and homeschooling associations.

S&Es, however, in a sponsorship society, will not actually have a job. They'll simply get a stipend, a low one for that matter, for passing a series of exams.

Those engineers, who're too corporate, will leave the sponsorship, for a career at a Morgan & Stanley, McKinsey, or a defense contractor, like Honeywell, if they don't want to have the space for their own independent work.

Others will apply for medical school or some health care ancillary program.

Rin says

Those engineers, who're too corporate, will leave the sponsorship, for a career at a Morgan & Stanley, McKinsey, or a defense contractor, like Honeywell, if they don't want to have the space for their own independent work.

The fact that a new exam will need to be taken, every two years, will also eliminate the fact that when an engineer leaves the sponsorship, for an equity analyst job at Citigroup for $120K/yr, he won't be carrying around a lifelong pension.

Most likely, that person will then take MBA classes part-time, like at an NYU business program or Columbia E-MBA, and study for those exams. In a few short years, that person will be a business-y type and no longer an engineer.

This will not be a lifelong welfare thing, as benefits expire without the technical exams.

Only ppl who hate business school, finance, medicine, and IP law, but love working on their own stuff, will stay in the sponsorship.

Rin says

Most likely, that person will then take MBA classes part-time, like at an NYU business program or Columbia E-MBA, and study for those exams. In a few short years, that person will be a business-y type and no longer an engineer.

And yes, this could also have a means test, meaning that 2 to 3 annual W-2s, from Morgan & Stanley, showing a six figure salary, forces one to be unemployed for at least a year, before receiving benefits. And thus, one can't simply take an exam, earn $120K/yr from M&S, and get a bonus of $32K-$40K from the sponsorship.

On the other hand, a burn out from M&S, now out of work for a year, can take an exam and join the sponsorship, provided he'd taken the prerequisite exams, during engineering college. Thus, he'd prepped himself for the day, that instead of killing himself, because working for a banker/trader douchebag 90 hours/week wasn't worth it, he decides that he'll join his real love, STEM studies, and drop out of corporate America.

Rin says

Teachers are already obsolete, thanks in part, due to the net. They've outgrown their usefulness, for at least a few decades. It's just that parents are either too overworked or not innovative enough, to educate their own kids through online offerings and homeschooling associations.

I don't agree with this. Online education is today's version of teaching via Schoolhouse Rock, Sesame Street, and their ilk. Its too easy for a student to phase out.

Homeschooling? You are really taking a risk there. While parents may be motivated for their kids to learn that does not give them any talent to teach, nor does it qualify any other parent in the homeschooling clique. That job may just fall on the stay at home parent who may be a religious fanatic or have no real understanding of the subject matters.

New Renter says

Homeschooling? You are really taking a risk there

Well ... when we were kids, we didn't have streaming courses from Berkeley, Illinois, MIT, Stanford, and other top tier universities to set the standard.

Today, that stuff is available on the net.

I know that if I were a kid today, I'd have gotten an equivalent of a college degree, by the end of high school, time-wise.

The real problem are those kids, who have a need to belong and attempt to do whatever it takes, to seem acceptable by their HS classmates. This is why there are so many issues with Jr HSs and HSs today, given the exposure of online media, like Facebook and so forth, kids are less independent today, than earlier.

When I did my teaching stints at a HS, I reorganized the material. I knew that ppl had recall, based on the Ebbinghaus forgetting curve and set up the material so that much of Mon & Friday were dedicated to review and repetition, but that Tues to Thurs, would introduce the newest materials. The end result is that I raised the lowest kids from a 'D' to a 'C+/B-' and even the 'B' students went up to an 'B+/A-'. None of the other teachers had adopted any of my ideas, after I'd left that stint.

Rin says

Well ... when we were kids, we didn't have streaming courses from Berkeley, Illinois, MIT, Stanford, and other top tier universities to set the standard.

Sure, but you still can't ask questions mid lecture. If you don't understand something you are SOL.

Rin says

The real problem are those kids, who have a need to belong and attempt to do whatever it takes, to seem acceptable by their HS classmates. This is why there are so many issues with Jr HSs and HSs today, given the exposure of online media, like Facebook and so forth, kids are less independent today, than earlier.

Well I'm not so in touch with the J/HS kids of today but the desire to "belong" was strong in my day too. TV was a highly corrosive influence with its messages of "school sucks", "homework is hard", and or course who can forget "buy this trapper keeper or everyone will laugh at you behind your back".

NFL team branded pencils were all important in some circles.

More emphasis on "being cool" than on being smart. Isn't that what you are describing as well?

Rin says

When I did my teaching stints at a HS, I reorganized the material. I knew that ppl had recall, based on the Ebbinghaus forgetting curve and set up the material so that much of Mon & Friday were dedicated to review and repetition, but that Tues to Thurs, would introduce the newest materials. The end result is that I raised the lowest kids from a 'D' to a 'C+/B-' and even the 'B' students went up to an 'B+/A-'. None of the other teachers had adopted any of my ideas, after I'd left that stint.

Not surprising, I also reorganized my teaching material to a format I felt was better. Still a lot of that depends on the teaching style of the instructor as well as the learning style of the student.

Let me give you an example. I took organic chemistry and found it very difficult. It was all memorization and regurgitation. I did not do well. Later when I had to pass my ochem GRE I was part of a study group in which the wife of an professor was a member. The professor tutored us and this time it made a LOT more sense.

The difference? My previous instructors had been SYNTHETIC organic chemists and this guy was a PHYSICAL organic chemist.

OK that may make a world of sense to you but for the others who may still be awake this makes a world of difference.

Synthetic organic chemists just teach the memorization of each set of reaction conditions whereas physical organic chemists teach how the reactions work. With the latter one can just learn a few basic mechanisms and from there "see" how a new, more complicated reaction will work.

This was a revelation for me! After that experience I encouraged anyone having difficulty learning materials to seek out a new instructor who might have a more compatible approach to the same material. For some learning by memorization and regurgitation works just fine (e.g. medical track students) but for others (engineering track ) it's nothing but confusion and delay.

New Renter says

Rin says

Well ... when we were kids, we didn't have streaming courses from Berkeley, Illinois, MIT, Stanford, and other top tier universities to set the standard.

Sure, but you still can't ask questions mid lecture. If you don't understand something you are SOL.

I'm going to leave the other stuff (like teaching styles and stuff out), as that's another topic altogether, however, if you're confused today, there are still plenty of ways to ask questions on other online forums.

Back in our time, none of that stuff was available.

Today, if I were young, I'd write that question out, submit to a number of online forums, and value the various responses.

I don't need no steenkin syence. I watch FOX.

The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-the-science-and-engineering-shortage/284359/

Rin says

Today, if I were young, I'd write that question out, submit to a number of online forums, and value the various responses.

One can only hope that the online educational forums are populated with posters who are as insightful as we here at PatNet:

PatNet - where any answer you ask is answered concisely and respectfully and is always 100% correct. Just like the rest of the internet.

;)

In my hypothetical scenario, of me still growing up and ~14 years of age, the following has all the HS needed coursework minus a good general biology, general geometry, and the French language sequences, however, we have a great French library/language center in Boston for that, which I'd do on weekends, taking the commuter rail into the city.

http://www.straighterline.com

As soon as I finish one of the above, the next course in that sequence could be taken at the Harvard Extension/night program, which can be transferred to a 4 year program, later on down the road.

The only real reason for someone to attend a HS these days is if they are NCAA material. Those JV and varsity activities are not that important vs let's say, studying a martial art, outside of class. Plus, one can always shoot hoops at a YMCA. Even the kids I knew, who later went for drama, did the Boston Univ (& other local school) organizations while still in HS. Sure, most never went to Broadway and took an ordinary job in corporate America, like everyone else but the key was that HS was not the thing which made them who they were.

If HS was this idyllic place of ppl kicking back, going fishing and basically living a scene out of 'American Graffiti', ala Mel's Diner, sure, I'd advocate for it but I don't see that in today's time, outside of some really rural places.

Rin says

In my hypothetical scenario, of me still growing up and ~14 years of age, the following has all the HS needed coursework minus a good general biology, general geometry, and the French language sequences, however, we have a great French library/language center in Boston for that, which I'd do on weekends, taking the commuter rail into the city.

http://www.straighterline.com

As soon as I finish one of the above, the next course in that sequence could be taken at the Harvard Extension/night program, which can be transferred to a 4 year program, later on down the road.

Online learning is fine for the lecture portion but what about the lab? I don't see any way an online course can serve that purpose.

New Renter says

Online learning is fine for the lecture portion but what about the lab? I don't see any way an online course can serve that purpose.

That's why we have Harvard Extension, that piece is the next step ...

http://www.extension.harvard.edu/courses/introduction-molecular-cellular-biology

And a HSer can take the class above. They don't haze under-aged attendants there.

Is the angle of the dangle and appropriate aptitude test?

Rin says

New Renter says

Online learning is fine for the lecture portion but what about the lab? I don't see any way an online course can serve that purpose.

That's why we have Harvard Extension, that piece is the next step ...

http://www.extension.harvard.edu/courses/introduction-molecular-cellular-biology

And a HSer can take the class above. They don't haze under-aged attendants there.

And also, before spending money on an on-campus lab based course, there's no reason for a kid, not to preview the material here ...

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology

Seriously, if this stuff was available, when I was growing up, I'd have dropped out during junior high, I wouldn't have even waited till HS.

With one of my former colleague (who's an exception and not the rule) as an outlier, many other parents are rather lazy in their kids' education. This friend has already gotten his kids to do the Pimsleur language CDs at the age of 7, some HS level geometry, geography, world history, some keyboard lessons, and karate.

Rin says

I think it's time that the horseshit about science and engineering careers comes to an end.

Corporations are offshoring R&D and the govt is limiting funding to key *pet* principal investigators in the academy (plus national labs). You know, the loudmouths who shout slogans like 'Nano' 'Nano', all day.

So here's my plan... we create a federally funded program, paid out of the defense budget and that's the science & engineering sponsorship society.

Sir, God bless you. The US did a similar thing back in 1890, and a decade later airflight, automobiles, Chemistry, Physics (Relativity, Photo Electric effect) were being invented and massive production ensued!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era

Bravo - I second this idea!

New Renter says

Rin says

Teachers are already obsolete, thanks in part, due to the net. They've outgrown their usefulness, for at least a few decades. It's just that parents are either too overworked or not innovative enough, to educate their own kids through online offerings and homeschooling associations.

I don't agree with this. Online education is today's version of teaching via Schoolhouse Rock, Sesame Street, and their ilk. Its too easy for a student to phase out.

Homeschooling? You are really taking a risk there. While parents may be motivated for their kids to learn that does not give them any talent to teach, nor does it qualify any other parent in the homeschooling clique. That job may just fall on the stay at home parent who may be a religious fanatic or have no real understanding of the subject matters.

I write online curriculum for the two largest online high school companies. I also teach high school. Online education is a joke and no substitute for a quality teacher in high school. Online high school and college is purely being developed by people trying to find a way to make money by ultimately doing nothing. Unfortunately, it usually only ends up with the student doing nothing.

Rin says

New Renter says

Online learning is fine for the lecture portion but what about the lab? I don't see any way an online course can serve that purpose.

That's why we have Harvard Extension, that piece is the next step ...

http://www.extension.harvard.edu/courses/introduction-molecular-cellular-biology

And a HSer can take the class above. They don't haze under-aged attendants there.

I did a summer lecture/lab course just before my first year of HS at UC Berkeley yia the GATE program. It was only twice a week. The commute was about 2 hrs door to door and I was lucky that my Dad was able to drive me to the nearest BART station. Walking alone through Berkeley was a bit scary. Had I been stuck exclusively with public transport it would have been a no-go as there was no reasonable way to get to BART from our home using it.

To fix this one of two things has to happen:

1) Extension courses need to be local. Extension campuses, shared campuses or some way to delocalize the physical learning centers.

2) Self driving cars (or dedicated buses) can transport students who cannot drive

Either way these programs will likely only be available for students in large metro areas - unless a better transportation system *cough* high speed rail *cough* comes a reality.