patrick.net

Prop 13 protects you at old age from losing your home, it keeps taxes low so that old folks living on social security can still afford to live there, without being a burden to their children.

But unions and crooked bureaucrats don't like that, because all they want is to take every single penny from every single hard working person in this state for themselves. These people have no heart, they'd throw every grandma overboard if it'll make them money.

It's why Prop 13 passed in the first place, old folks were losing their homes at that time because they were being pushed out due to high taxes, while unions kept on asking for more and more money. Enough is enough.

marcus says

California public schools went from being among the best in the country, to
ranking much much lower

The big issue is that some students just don't want to learn. I remember from my high school days how many students would have rather been anywhere but on campus. This directly leads to truancy and even when they are on campus, they are repeatedly goofing off. No amount of money can fix this issue.

marcus says

Right. California public schools went from being among the best in the country, to ranking much much lower. THat has nothing to do with prop 13 and is strictly the fault of unions and corrupt bureaucrats.

Because unions and bureaucrats raised costs of public schools to astronomical levels. And as usual, under the usual pretense sloganeering that it is "for the children"...

FortWayne says

Because unions and bureaucrats raised costs of public schools to astronomical levels. And as usual, under the usual pretense sloganeering that it is "for the children"...

Except for the fact that this is just made up BS. California spends less than most states, and K - 12 spending has gone up slower than inflation for a long time.

Prop 13 took school spending away from local governments (as it's done in most of the US).

Depending on who you listen to, per student spending in California is among the lowest in the country. It also depends on whether college is included. Regardless, everyone places California somewhere between 35th and 49th.

http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/ci_23744587/california-national-rank-per-pupil-spending-abysmal-but

http://www.edsource.org/today/2013/california-drops-to-49th-in-school-spending-in-annual-ed-week-report/25379#.Uf_sSvlkw1I

http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2012/06/census-bureau-says-california-school-spending-35th-in-us.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/california-school-spendin_n_1016551.html

FortWayne says

under the usual pretense sloganeering that it is "for the children"...

Yes, those greedy dirtbag teachers, claiming that paying teachers decently has anything to do with the quality of teachers. How laughable is that ?

Teaching is so easy. It's only those with union connections that can get in, in the first place, otherwise we would all being doing that easy gig for big bucks. It's not like they open job opportunities to everyone and have real competition for those job openings. They only work 6 hours a day, and they get summers off. Glorified baby sitters is really all they are. The idea that they deserve more than minimum wage for such an easy mindless job is nothing more than a scam pulled over on Americans by greedy union thugs.

marcus says

Depending on who you listen to, per student sending in California is among the lowest in the country.

That's all your unions fault there buddy. Your unions demanded it, and now California is running out of kids to subsidize union pension system. Lots of teachers and administrators with big pensions and a shortage of kids to sucker into paying for them.

It's why your union constantly supports legalizing and bringing in more illegals into the state, you are hoping there will be enough people to pay for your unions greed in a retirement Ponzi scheme system.

FortWayne says

That's all your unions fault there buddy. Your unions demanded it, and now California is running out of kids to subsidize union pension system. Lots of teachers and administrators with big pensions and a shortage of kids to sucker into paying for them.

Right. Are you for real ?

So from the fact that California is 50th in students per teacher (that is California has the most students per teacher in the country),..from that you get this:

Lots of teachers and administrators with big pensions and a shortage of kids to sucker into paying for them.

??

Meanwhile, even though we have the most students per teacher, California is also close to the bottom in spending per student.

What's it like, when deep down you know that your beliefs are entirely based on made up fiction ? Oh yeah,... I sometimes forget that that's what it means to be a republican these days.

You have no problem with that. Honesty and truth are not what you're all about.

Ideology trumps truth.

(hey, that's a decent bumper sticker right there)

(quick, before any cognitive dissonance erupts - go to a fox news site, or perhaps turn on talk radio. That will get you back get you back where you want to be. Good ol propaganda - luckily for you, there's plenty of it out there. I would give you links, but I'm sure you have plenty of your favorites. ).

FortWayne says

Prop 13 protects you at old age from losing your home, it keeps taxes low so
that old folks living on social security can still afford to live there, without
being a burden to their children

Nonsense! If you are elderly and want to live in your home, and can't afford the property taxes on your million dollar cottage in Menlo Park that you purchased for $40K back in the day, take out a HELOC. Or a reverse mortgage.

The idea that the elderly might lost their home because of its incredibly appreciated value is just a garbage argument made by Granny's greedy heirs. Get a job, deadbeats, and create your own wealth.

FortWayne says

Prop 13 protects you at old age from losing your home, it keeps taxes low so that old folks living on social security can still afford to live there, without being a burden to their children.

I think that's BS.
Yes ultra high home prices might force out older folks without prop13.
But note that no one cares that they also force out young people who can't afford them.

If old folks had to pay higher taxes because of high home prices, they wouldn't favor policies that created these ultra high home prices to start with - like restrictions on new building, like subsidies for mortgages, etc, etc...

In all, if old folks had to pay higher taxes because of high home prices, home prices would not be so high to start with.

In addition many of these same "old people" are perfectly happy to sell eventually at 5-10x the price they paid. They are perfectly happy to make "young" people pay for that.

So really prop13 was just about a generation living the life by screwing up the next ones, defunding their schools, and dumping on them inflated assets.
Just because they could.

Heraclitusstudent says

In all, if old folks had to pay higher taxes because of high home prices, home prices would not be so high to start with.

Very true. It's also true that knowing taxes will be a function of original price paid, automatically puts a premium on that price (compared to states where that is not the case). This is especially true for investors, but also true for those buying their residence. You can afford to pay more up front, knowing that your cost of ownership decreases with inflation more than it would in states where properties are reassessed for taxes.(california puts 2% cap on how much prop taxes can rise per year)

Heraclitusstudent says

So really prop13 was just about a generation living the life by screwing up the next ones, defunding their schools, and dumping on them inflated assets.

Just because they could.

Good summary.

If your property has doubled or tripled in value, you would have no choice but to kill yourself if you had to face higher taxes. Certainly, selling for an obscene profit is out of the question.

Furthermore, "for the children" is a low-down, dirty, and cheap argument, but "for the old people" is a legitimate reason to create a landed aristocracy down to the 20th generation of descendants.

Am I conservative yet?

What's wrong with passing down property to descendants at inherited tax basis? That will stick it to landlords who won't be able to fleece those starting out after college with obscene apartment rents not to mention that it will make it a heck of a lot easier to pay back the student loans which will undoubtedly increase with every passing year.

ACA 8: A Direct Assault on Prop. 13

This new bill will enable cities to bypass prop 13 and charge property owners whatever they like. I sense the days of smugness and financial security are coming to an abrupt end.

http://www.hjta.org/california-commentary/aca-8-direct-assault-prop-13

Blurtman says

The idea that the elderly might lost their home because of its incredibly appreciated value is just a garbage argument made by Granny's greedy heirs. Get a job, deadbeats, and create your own wealth.

It was a very real argument before prop 13 when it was happening. There were old folks who were being tossed out. And it was because property taxes kept on rising way beyond incomes. People shouldn't be losing houses so that unions can live it up. You are just too young to remember that.

Nothing was affordable, because when taxes were permanently rising, your job was to just pay and pay and pay and pay a lot with no end in sight. And if your income diminished, go live on a street. Unions didn't care, all they cared is for their huge increases every year. Biggest parasites in the world are these unions!

HydroCabron says

Furthermore, "for the children" is a low-down, dirty, and cheap argument, but "for the old people" is a legitimate reason to create a landed aristocracy down to the 20th generation of descendants.

Am I conservative yet?

Prop 13 reduced poverty everywhere in a state, it was not an empty slogan. Seniors were no longer kicked out to the curb after, and young people were not forced to support their old parents because of the economic situation their parents were thrown into.

Having to help your old folks is nice when you just do it out of love, it is a burden when they are forced into poverty and you have to work 2 backbreaking jobs just to keep them and your family going... all to support union pigs...

FortWayne says

Unions didn't care, all they cared is for their huge increases every year. Biggest parasites in the world are these unions!

.
.

FortWayne says

and you have to work 2 backbreaking jobs just to keep them and your family going... all to support union pigs...

You don't suppose that having such a significant chunk of the state's workforces (govt workers) standard of living almost keeping up with inflation had a positive impact on the competing pay level of workers in the private sector job market in California ?

At least admit that while those union pigs are loafing on the job, and living in the lap of luxury, at least they comprise a substantial chunk of California's middle class, and they spend most of their their money in the state economy and pay taxes just like everyone else.

You can't even comprehend that what you really advocate is a lowering of the standard of living for all middle class and poorer workers.

donjumpsuit says

Prop 13 is a corporate landslide in avoiding taxes.

You know a tax break is filthy when the public opinion thinks that it saves old ladies from being foreclosed upon, but in reality it just makes corporations buckets and buckets of money.

Yes.

And also when right wing propaganda outlets such as talk radio constantly bash the evil liberals and union workers who are at supposedly the only ones who want to amend prop 13.

marcus says

At least admit that while those union pigs are loafing on the job, and living in the lap of luxury, at least they comprise a substantial chunk of California's middle class, and they spend most of their their money in the state economy and pay taxes just like everyone else.

So your view of middle class is government beating up private sector working people into poverty so government unions can have a good life. You finally came out and said it. The usual wolves deciding how to eat the sheep... some of us sheep do not agree with us being your dinner plate.

FortWayne says

You finally came out and said it.

Stupid and twisted.

Just how much of that propaganda do you listen to each day anyway ?

So paying for government services is being beaten up by the government ?

Why didn't you get a government job if it's such a great deal ? Was it because you have too much integrity to do so little work in return for so much compensation ?

I know that most people never considered a career working for the government such a great deal until recently. What changed ?

I noticed you didn't respond to this:
marcus says

You don't suppose that having such a significant chunk of the state's workforces (govt workers) standard of living almost keeping up with inflation had a positive impact on the competing pay level of workers in the private sector job market in California ?

Property taxes itself is unfair. At best it is extortion, at worst just outright theft via government force. I say do away with property taxes and replace it with a sales tax when sold. Sellers don't seem to mind paying Realtors 6% for doing nothing....

FortWayne says

Nothing was affordable, because when taxes were permanently rising, your job was to just pay and pay and pay and pay a lot with no end in sight.

What do you think happens to people buying a house now? They pay through the nose for the house, PLUS they pay through the nose in taxes.

You just protected one generation by dumping the costs on new entrants. If that's your idea of "fair" or "not unfair", then you're a moron.

And this has nothing to do with unions, sorry. If you don't like unions, write a proposition against them, not about real estate taxes.

marcus says

Stupid and twisted.

Just how much of that propaganda do you listen to each day anyway ?

So paying for government services is being beaten up by the government ?

Oh it's not twisted, you said it. You are fine with government throwing people into poverty as long as unions (your team) gets everything you want. Because you view the world as a two class system, big government and it's lackey employees who should be paid well. And private sector who you think must spend all their lives in back breaking labor to pay for public unions desires and be throw onto the street when they can't work hard enough to support the state.

Comrade, Soviet Union is missing a party member... I think it is you!

FortWayne says

Prop 13 protects you at old age from losing your home, it keeps taxes low so that old folks living on by Text-Enhance">social security can still afford to live there, without being a burden to their children.

Yeah, that's who prop 13 protects old grandmas.... Because you know what I hate is, when one of my investments become so valuable that I can not afford it. And yes it must be such a burden on the kids when grandma has a house that she payed 70k for that is worth 1.5million, oh how will poor old grandma and the kids get by.

FortWayne says

Oh it's not twisted, you said it. You are fine with government throwing people into poverty as long as unions (your team) gets everything you want.

I didn't say anything close to this. I made one point that you won't respond to. My second point was tongue in cheek (about "lap of luxury") and was primarily pointing out the benefits to the California economy of govt employee compensation in it's entirety going back in to the California economy (private sector mostly) and with the same taxes paid as well (you know those taxes that are driving everyone in to poverty).

Sorry if as usual you either didn't understand, or you wished to make it conform to your entirely dishonest and highly twisted view of the world.

FortWayne says

Prop 13 reduced poverty everywhere in a state, it was not an empty slogan. Seniors were no longer kicked out to the curb after, and young people were not forced to support their old parents because of the economic situation their parents were thrown into.

OMG.... you are a communist.

Why do you hate the free market?

Why do support laws that tax one group (new home owners) to support another group?

Again FW...why don't you pathetically twist these around too ?

marcus says

Why didn't you get a government job if it's such a great deal ? Was it because you have too much integrity to do so little work in return for so much compensation ?

also...

marcus says

You don't suppose that having such a significant chunk of the state's workforces (govt workers) standard of living almost keeping up with inflation had a positive impact on the competing pay level of workers in the private sector job market in California ?

Heraclitusstudent says

What do you think happens to people buying a house now? They pay through the nose for the house, PLUS they pay through the nose in taxes.

Prices are too high because someone is willing to pay too much and banks are willing to lend you and everyone else money for 30 years. Not because your grandma can still afford to live in dignity in a comfort of her own home.

Higher taxes never make anything ever more affordable. Taxes discourage economic activity and production for everyone, except for the tax takers.

FortWayne says

Prices are too high because someone is willing to pay too much and banks are willing to lend you and everyone else money for 30 years. Not because your grandma can still afford to live in dignity in a comfort of her own home.

Socialist.... why do you hate our country.

Regarding argument that prop 13 increases house prices because buyers know that they will be "protected" in the future via prop 13 - if real estate rises with inflation as it historically tends to do - it means that real estate rises at 3.1% per year while prop 13 raises assesed value at 2% per year - that 1.1% gap is not exactly getting away with murder. Also, most buyers are mainly looking at how much they can afford in year 1, how much down payment they can come up with, projected rental costs in the coming years if they were not to buy, I honestly don't think that the supposed "protection" of prop 13 influences much of decision variables associated with buying.

dublin hillz says

that 1.1% gap is not exactly getting away with murder.

3.1 is a very long term average. There are periods, such as the last 35 years when it goes up much more.

Over time it has made a huge difference in the period of 1978 to now.

MAybe you are somewhat correct as to looking forward, but looking back ? See the point made above (by Heraclitusstudent ). This must affect the supply and demand dynamics.

That is if an older person has deeply discounted prop taxes, then they will not be willing to sell for the purpose of moving elsewhere, unless compensated for what they are giving up.

FortWayne says

Higher taxes never make anything ever more affordable. Taxes discourage economic activity and production for everyone, except for the tax takers.

We are talking about low taxes for new home owners. You are taking about one group subsidizing another group and keeping high tax on the young.

marcus says

I didn't say anything close to this. I made one point that you won't respond to. My second point was tongue in cheek (about "lap of luxury") and was primarily pointing out the benefits to the California economy of govt employee compensation in it's entirety going back in to the California economy (private sector mostly) and with the same taxes paid as well (you know those taxes that are driving everyone in to poverty).

You said that government work paying a lot to unions is a justification for throwing old people onto the street at old age.

Now you seem to be doing a satire on your own dishonesty.

Hey, this is an anonymous forum. If you want to portray yourself as retarded, dishonest or some combination of both, that's your prerogative.

FortWayne says

marcus says

I didn't say anything close to this. I made one point that you won't respond to. My second point was tongue in cheek (about "lap of luxury") and was primarily pointing out the benefits to the California economy of govt employee compensation in it's entirety going back in to the California economy (private sector mostly) and with the same taxes paid as well (you know those taxes that are driving everyone in to poverty).

You said that government work paying a lot to unions is a justification for throwing old people onto the street at old age.

He didn't say that at all, you did.
As well you seem to dense to understand that giving one group a grate tax rate means that the second group has to pay a much higher rate.

dublin hillz says

if real estate rises with inflation as it historically tends to do - it means that real estate rises at 3.1% per year while prop 13 raises assesed value at 2% per year - that 1.1% gap is not exactly getting away with murder.

Except:
- (1) after 40 years of compounding it, the 1% difference makes like 100% of the initial price. (and anything in-between before that),

- (2) real-estate prices did increase much more than inflation, because of policies designed to inflate prices (popular with home owners).

Anyone who says they ought to pay less taxes than their neighbor is unfair, that's really as simple as it is.

evilmonkeyboy says

He didn't say that at all, you did.

As well you seem to dense to understand that giving one group a grate tax rate means that the second group has to pay a much higher rate.

Your problem is high taxes, not the fact that your grandma is still living in dignity. You think your taxes are too high, take it up with the unions and bureaucrats who keep on raising your taxes... they are the takers.

Without prop 13 you would be paying a lot more for everything today.

evilmonkeyboy says

FortWayne says

Prices are too high because someone is willing to pay too much and banks are willing to lend you and everyone else money for 30 years. Not because your grandma can still afford to live in dignity in a comfort of her own home.

Socialist.... why do you hate our country.

He is not socialist, the country is (and getting more so by the day).

FortWayne says

the unions and bureaucrats who keep on raising your taxes...

If only he had the intellectual capacity to back this up with facts.

FortWayne says

Without prop 13 you would be paying a lot more for everything today

Property taxes would be higher as a percentage of home price, but not necessarily the actual amount. But some other taxes would be lower. Housing prices would be a lower, and schools would be WAY better.