patrick.net

Straw Man says

Do rapes of 17yo 6ft males happen often (outside of prison environment of course)?

Look up how often men get raped, it may surprise you. Lately we have been hearing a lot about sexual assault in the military, but what is often left out of the story is that a disturbingly large amount of men in the military are victims of sexual assault as well.

He didn't have proof and school officers aren't the same as actual detectives looking to put perps in prison. I have no doubt Trayvon stole all of that jewelry or at least was an accessory to the theft.

Just like you claimed that it wouldn't be a stretch to paint Zimmerman as some gay rapist because he was "following" Trayvon in his car (I disagree), it would DEFINITELY not be a stretch to show that Trayvon was actually a thief if the defense got to show the screw driver, and bag of jewelry in Trayvon's possession.

However the main point is this evidence could have strengthened the case of the defense by shattering the image that Trayvon was some innocent kid. They never got the opportunity. (Not that they needed it)

Honestly, that stuff is circumstantial. The bar for a jury to determine guilt for a felony conviction is high, and while the defense could try to poison the jury against TM with those pictures, they would also have to consider that GZ had likely never seen them. Honestly, a judge probably would have ruled those inadmissible. That does not mean that Ms. Corey made the right choice, and she should be held accountable for any and all offenses that her actions count as, but the things she withheld may not have ever seen the courtroom anyway.

I bet a lot of it is seen if a "civil" trial comes off. Something Trayvon's parents should consider.

Goran_K says

Trayvon has no legal right to own a gun. Fact.

Right, but it is common in Florida and elsewhere in the US for a parent to buy a gun for a child, the transfer ownership when the child is of age.

There is no indication that TM was not planning on trying to convince his father to have an similar ownership arrangement as Trayvon's friend had with his mother. Why would one automatically assume otherwise.

Christ, in California in the 80s I had a teenage friend and his brother -- after months of bitching and moaning -- convince his parents that it would be a good idea for them to buy and Uzi. As an adult looking back in retrospect it was a terrible idea, but everything worked out fine. All legal...I never shot it, but I sure did handle it and if I had a camera phone at the time I would most certainly have taken a picture. Hell, a few years ago when I shot a friends AK-47 I took some pictures and video (not stupid enough to post or tweet that shit -- I am not a teen anymore), and I have shot AK type guns before (just SKS not a real AK).

Goran_K says

However the main point is this evidence could have strengthened the case of the defense by shattering the image that Trayvon was some innocent kid. They never got the opportunity. (Not that they needed it)

Yeah, not that they needed it.

Let us assume for a moment that TM did steal the jewelry and was found guilty for that in a court of law. That does not mean that TM is forever after guilty of stealing/burglary. Anymore than GZ would be forever after guilty of assault and excessive force.

At the night in question the is no indication what soever that TM was up to no good. I might have been convinced of that if he had burglary tool on himself when he was shot -- and yes, there were some people that tried to spread that rumor.

bmwman91 says

Honestly, a judge probably would have ruled those inadmissible. That does not mean that Ms. Corey made the right choice, and she should be held accountable for any and all offenses that her actions count as, but the things she withheld may not have ever seen the courtroom anyway.

Yep, I totally agree. Most likely they would have been inadmissible and it would have been stupid to try and cover them up.

Goran_K says

What happened to Martin is a tragedy, but what Angela Corey tried to do with our justice system is a TRAVESTY!

This kind of thing happens all the time. There are thousands of people in jail - or worse - because of over-zealous prosecutors looking to improve their batting averages. These people don't have the money GZ was able to raise to defend themselves. I wonder why that is?

leo707 says

Right, but it is common in Florida and elsewhere in the US for a parent to buy a gun for a child, the transfer ownership when the child is of age.

There is no indication that TM was not planning on trying to convince his father to have an similar ownership arrangement as Trayvon's friend had with his mother. Why would one automatically assume otherwise.

I think you're missing the point. It's not about the assumption of guilt. Trayvon was never put on trial for illegally owning a gun.

It's about the image of Trayvon as some innocent child who didn't do anything wrong and was killed by some malicious racist in Zimmerman, you know... the entire crux of the prosecutions case? Race bating emotion?

It's all lies, sorry to say. The Trayvon Martin Foundation that his father "Tracy" started and their central tenet about gun restrictions and SYG eliminations looks pretty hypocritical if you consider the fact Trayvon was trying to acquire a gun for himself. Couple that with the fact that Tracy Martin continually claimed that Trayvon didn't know anything about guns and he didn't "keep guns in his house", it really points to someone being a big fat liar. Either Trayvon was illegally trying to acquire a gun or his father lied about his desire to "keep guns in his house."

Also, Trayvon has committed a felony either way you cut it.

If one is an unlawful user of, say, marijuana which Trayvon was pictured smoking and rolling, and answers yes to question ‘e’ on Form 4473, then one is not a legal purchaser of a firearm. If one answers no, when one completes the form 4473, then one has committed a federal felony. So even if he has acquired the gun legally, the pictures still prove he lied on the gun purchase form, therefore should not have the gun legally anymore.

leo when it comes down to it, I just want to eliminate the corruption and lies. Trayvon is dead, and GZ is innocent. That part is done and over. Why can't the truth have it's day?

rooemoore says

This kind of thing happens all the time. There are thousands of people in jail - or worse - because of over-zealous prosecutors looking to improve their batting averages. These people don't have the money GZ was able to raise to defend themselves. I wonder why that is?

I agree. Unfortunately not every case can be a high profile race polarizing event, but it's these high profile cases are great for exposing corrupt prosecutors like Angela Corey because of the public eye being so focused.

leo707 says

Let us assume for a moment that TM did steal the jewelry and was found guilty for that in a court of law. That does not mean that TM is forever after guilty of stealing/burglary. Anymore than GZ would be forever after guilty of assault and excessive force.

You have to be kidding me right? Past history of violence is admissible evidence in cases of domestic abuse. Why wouldn't that be the case for showing that Trayvon had a history of burglary? Doesn't make sense to me.

People accuse Zimmerman of being a profiler (which isn't illegal in his job as a watch man ), but it's hard to paint him as that if Trayvon is actually a thief.

Goran_K says

leo when it comes down to it, I just want to eliminate the corruption and lies. Trayvon is dead, and GZ is innocent. That part is done and over. Why can't the truth have it's day?

I agree I would like the truth to have it's day as well, but I think we both are going to have to accept that we will never know the whole truth.

I am not saying that TM was a perfect person (who is at 17?), but trying to paint him as a dangerous vicious thug is just as disingenuous as trying to paint him as an angel skipping home with a big lolly in his hand. Just like almost every other 17 year-old kid out there TM had good and bad, yeah he did stupid shit. Most boys grow out of that. I don't see anything so bad about Trayvon that he was destined to become a career criminal.

Here's another thing that didn't see the light of day from Trayvon's phone.

There was a detailed text conversation between Trayvon and Jenteal about Trayvon's history of getting into fist fights at school. He had dozens of fist fights in with other students, and even a fist fight with his own cousin detailed on Facebook where he describes losing the first part of the fight, but winning the last part because "he got mo hits in".

Why weren't these text about Trayvon's after school fights shown in court? Wouldn't this be useful information in determining who was more likely to start a physical confrontation?

Like I said, the lies and corruption need to be burned away. I hope a lot of it goes away with Angela Corey once she's in prison.

leo707 says

I don't see anything so bad about Trayvon that he was destined to become a career criminal.

I'm not going to say he would become a career criminal, but to deny that there were definite signs that Trayvon's life as an adult wouldn't have been completely lawful is laughable.

Goran_K says

Why wouldn't that be the case for showing that Trayvon had a history of burglary? Doesn't make sense to me.

Um...because TM did not have a past history of burglary.

leo707 says

Um...because TM did not have a past history of burglary.

We were talking in the hypothetical. You said "Let us assume for a moment that TM did steal the jewelry and was found guilty for that in a court of law."

That picture evidence would have been helpful and admissible to prove he was indeed a burglar with a history. Sorry if it's un-pc, but your history follows you, even into a court of law.

Goran_K says

leo707 says

I don't see anything so bad about Trayvon that he was destined to become a career criminal.

I'm not going to say he would become a career criminal, but do deny that there were signs that Trayvon's life as an adult wouldn't have been great is laughable.

I have known many people who did things far worse than Trayvon. Think: ganging up on and severely beating another student (ER, and he was never seen at school again); intentional trying to burn-down a school library; unintentionally burning down a number of homes with home made fireworks; forcible rape; lots of fighting; lots drugs -- pick any your choice; drunken high speed car races; sever malicious vandalism (we are not talking TMs indecent with a pen and writing a couple of letters -- think thousands of dollars in damage and gallons of human bodily fluids); etc. I certainly have not participated in all the the above activities, nor do I condone them, or am I friends (now or then) with all evolved (last high school reunion I was at the rapist was pretty much shunned). I assure you that you would consider the schools I attended to be much better than any school Trayvon attended. If you were to meet any of there perpetrators today you would never know it, by their job or personal demeanor, even the rapist wears a suit to work and is friendly enough. For all we know he might be your best work friend.

Without knowing more I for one would not prejudge Trayvon's path in life.

That's all nice, and stories make you warm inside, but in reality, Trayvon was on a very shaky path, and more often than not, those kids don't make it.

Goran_K says

leo707 says

Um...because TM did not have a past history of burglary.

We were talking in the hypothetical. You said "Let us assume for a moment that TM did steal the jewelry and was found guilty for that in a court of law."

Oh, right got a little off track.

Goran_K says

That picture evidence would have been helpful and admissible to prove he was indeed a burglar with a history. Sorry if it's un-pc, but your history follows you, even into a court of law.

OK, no assumptions...TM had no record, was never "proven" to be a thief. It is just our speculation that he was. It is highly unlikely that any judge would let something into evidence that encourages a jury to come to unproven conclusions about the victim.

yeah Trayvon got lucky he was caught by a school officer and not a real cop.

Goran_K says

That's all nice, and stories make you warm inside, but in reality, Trayvon was on a very shaky path, and more often than not, those kids don't make it.

I don't think that Trayvon's path was much more shaky that a lot of 17 year-olds.

I have a couple of friends who works with juvenile offenders at different levels and the kids that I would put in the "more often that not, they are not going to make it" have much more disturbing backgrounds than Trayvon. Kids that are real dangerous vicious thugs. Kids who, if their lives got the same media attention as Trayvon's did, would make you either cry or shit-your-pants scared that they and their families even exist.

Trayvon's life has been cracked open and pretty much every dirty secret he had where there was any evidence has been laid to bear. What do we get? Some bad mistakes and stupid shit. I don't see a life long systemic pattern of stupid shit.

Disagree, he got into a fight with an armed man. It didn't end well.

Considering his history of numerous fights with kids after school where he looked at fighting as a game, and his thug life admiration, I can't say I am shocked.

Goran_K says

yeah Trayvon got lucky he was caught by a school officer and not a real cop.

That kind of luck has a lot to do with if a kid either gets their shit together and is a productive member of society in the twenties, or if they become a career criminal.

leo707 says

Why do you think that some people here are instant on assuming TM's guilt, when the evidence for the police to pursue TM on any criminal charges did not exist? Why do the same people ignore Zim's violent brushes with the law?

Good questions.

leo707 says

I don't see anything so bad about Trayvon that he was destined to become a career criminal.

Are you remembering that he was black, and wore a hoodie? What hell man. What more do you need ?

^^^^

WTH?!?!!

Some white bitch wrote that!

Goran_K says

We didn't have that in Zimmerman's case, in fact, after an ethical investigation into Zimmerman's past, a lie detector test, witness accounts, he was let go! Zimmerman was put on trial to appease a block of people who wanted to see Zimmerman on trial, and possibly fish for a conviction. Angela Corey is an evil woman.

This is why I say this is the stupidest guy on Patnet. He's heard the arguments from countless people on here countless times, and the wall that contains what he wishes to believe prevents him from even comprehending.

It's simple, if Zimmerman hadn't taken the law in to his own hands to pursue,very likely confront, and instigate violence with Martin, then the murder would not have happened.

You need not repeat that it's "speculation" that Zimmerman caused the fight to occur. We don't know. Zimmerman's story is no better than speculation. WE do know with 100% certainty that if Zimmerman had been rational that night 2 things would not have happened.

1) He would not have assumed MArtin was a criminal

2) He would not have pursued him armed with a gun

Then there's Zimmerman's very factual record of being a prescription speed user, and having fits of rage attacking people in the past.

And you want to say this ?

Goran_K says

overcharged Zimmerman and failed to provide an honest evaluation of the strengths and weaknesses of her case to the judge who allowed her to proceed with the case.

As I said, clearly the stpidest person on Patnet.

I'm assuming this bs about the prosecutor is a Fox News story. Am I being redundant ?

Not saying there aren't questions here, but you're blowing it out of proportion. Then again, maybe you're right. MISTRIAL !!

None of what you just posted is against the law( and if also argue that "pursue with a gun" is a mischaracterization of the facts.

Would you prefer pursue while armed with a loaded gun.

dodgerfanjohn says

None of what you just posted is against the law

Actually if Zimmerman instigated the fight (or even threw the first punch (missing)), then I don't think there's any way he should not be found guilty of at least manslaughter.

she fired a whistleblower, she'll get her day in court for that. Withholding evidence is a crime.

Next you guys and Fox news might consider trying to go after the judge, for denying the defenses request to throw the case out.

marcus says

dodgerfanjohn says

None of what you just posted is against the law

Actually if Zimmerman instigated the fight (or even threw the first punch (missing)), then I don't think there's any way he should not be found guilty of at least manslaughter.

How did you refute my point?

Me-you posted nothing against the law.

You -well I think the law should be XYZ

Kinda odd for a guy who's running around calling others unintelligent, yes yes?

Btw, why you racist?

dodgerfanjohn says

How did you refute my point?

Me-you posted nothing against the law.

I guess there is one entire sentence there for you to comprehend. Is it that you can't comprehend it or that you don't think manslaughter is against the law.

Btw, I reallly can't help you with your race issues. But I think it's really cute, and in keeping with your style and intelligence level that you try to turn it around on me.

The jury did not conclude beyond a doubt that Zimmemran cause d the fight. I don't even know how much of a thrust that was to their legal strategy. But if they were emphasizing manslaughter, it probably would have been. I'm sorry that these things aren't more simple for you.

You're correct that there probably is no Florida law that says one can claim self defense in a killing that was a consequence of a fight that they started. OR maybe it is part of the Florida law. I haven't read all their laws.

marcus says

The jury did not conclude beyond a doubt that Zimmemran cause d the fight.

And that's all that matters.

Now stick to the topic of Angela Corey being corrupt prosecutor who is being indicted for withholding evidence from the defense.

She should be fired for being a man in drag, badly done.

Well, maybe trayvon was the gay one, with all the jewelry and such. And he was trying to come on to the community watchdog, who would have none of it.

Quigley says

I thought the most damning pic from Trayvon's phone was the pile of jewelry on the bed. Zimm was after the right burglar. All of a sudden it makes sense that TM would attack someone who was reporting on his activities. TM's death may have been tragic, but so was his life, and his career in crime was already quite a nuisance to his neighborhood.

Marcus, dude, I get that this case trips your buttons but you got to stop calling people stupid simply because they disagree with your interpretation of the facts. Also you went and restated your entire tired speculation on the case that we've all heard many times before. It's straight off the lame stream media tag line. You could at least stick to the topic of whether the prosecutor should do time for her crimes.

Ok on a related note, this case is sheer distraction of the American people. It's designed (and I do mean designed, fabrication of story, etc) to cause racial tensions and create heated debate among people. The tag line of "watchman kills kid walking home" is perfectly crafted to trip the natural buttons of anyone who thinks kids should be protected (including me, at least before I found out more). So this whole situation blows up as intended, the jury acquits Zimmerman as they HAD TO if they followed the law, and the distraction rages on. I called the acquittal here on patnet over a week before it happened, and I felt safe in doing so because I saw the point of this whole thing: distraction.

The wealthy elite want us at each others throats and not watching what they're doing, selling our futures to foreign powers and stealing our childrens' futures. They have to be giggling like Dr. Evil, one pinky raised to pallid lips in a sneer of contempt for the naïveté of the American people.
The real rape, the real murder is happening all around us, and the mighty wiZard implores us to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

Bread and circuses, as usual.