patrick.net

CaptainShuddup says

Making anyone strip down bare ass naked and squat is also rape then.

Agreed and it should be treated as such. If I can't do such-n-such to the president's daughters, then no cop should be able to do the exact same thing to an unwilling person.

CaptainShuddup says

It sucks to be that Lady but it's the way it is, "Meh, what are you gonna do?".

Well, if the "guns save us from government" argument was valid, then the answer would be to use guns to bring those rapists to justice.

Hey a Police state is Great...if Your the police.

Dan8267 says

CaptainShuddup says

Making anyone strip down bare ass naked and squat is also rape then.

Agreed and it should be treated as such. If I can't do such-n-such to the president's daughters, then no cop should be able to do the exact same thing to an unwilling person.

MMMmmmm...yes, making someone squat and cough on the side of the highway, then letting them go with a citation, would also be rape.

However, it sounds like Shuddup has a warrant for his arrest and was strip searched while being processed into jail. That is a huge difference from being strip searched in plain view of your children and passing motorists on the side of the highway, and with no probable cause.

Violent actions (strip searches, killing, tazing, etc.) have their place and are necessary tools for police work. It is the over application of these techniques in situations where they are uncalled for that are the hallmarks of tyranny.

Stripsearch on the side of the road with no cause = tyranny.

Strip search while being processed into prison/jail = necessary.

Unjustly processing people into prison/jail thus subjecting them to strip search = tyranny.

leo707 says

Unjustly possessing people into prison/jail thus subjecting them to strip
search = tyranny.

I thought that was just all in a day's work for the TSA.

Being nude in public is illegal, but the state can force you to be nude and assume sexual humiliating poses. Yeah, our laws make a hell of a lot of sense.

My first reactions to this thread were wholly apolitical, however, as I read on, the topic became politicized (imagine that!). Dan blames conservatives, captain plames liberals. As if 90% of the voting population even understand how to identify the differences between the two, or why they like their team and dislike the opponent. Its devolved to futbol fandom status at this point, and now I wanna join in and point fingers at why team blue and team red both fucking suck.

I agree that the anti gun control crowd is bullshit when they say we need guns to protect us from the state, because we have a shitton of guns and NOBODY with the balls to turn them on the real enemy, The State, to protect freedom from tyranny. Their constant failures by saying one thing (freedom!), while demanding the opposite (authority) has become mind numbing

However the opposition is no better, and imo worse. The left begs for more statism at every turn. The State itself is most wholly democrat, and while they love to pat themselves on the back about how much smarter they are than the stupid republicans, there's a special place in hell reserved for their passive pleasure for playing bystander. Not to mention, the entire concept of lawyering and law for profit is inherently corrupt, and THAT IS WHAT LEADS TO THIS POLICE STATE! If lawyers and judges positions of power and means of accruing "wealth" wasn't reliant on this kind of shit happening, and the war on drugs, it wouldn't exist.

Affordable healthcare shmelthcare insurance company racket, we all need healthcare is pure bullshit in the form by which the democrats present it. I want affordable law care, and we most certainly all need that before we can begin a discussion on what it takes to be healthy. FIRE is currently under scrutiny, and well everybody knows that lawyers are scumbags, but where is the outcry to do something about the grip they have on our ability to be free?

Why do we need lawyering for profit? If you removed the profit motives from the corrupt judges that send our young away to detention centers (cash for kids) or the slimy, unproductive economic terrorists that hold certificates for practicing law in this country, could we possibly be any worse off? What is the benefit returned to society for allowing our court houses and law systems to be means to extort profits from the public? What are they providing in return for trading their for-profit law services that have brought about this police state?

Dan8267 says

Being nude in public is illegal, but the state can force you to be nude and assume sexual humiliating poses. Yeah, our laws make a hell of a lot of sense.

And this police state is the stupid republicans fault! Now there's a funky knee slapper, ha ha thanks for the laugh, dan

The basic problem is the quality of people that are attracted to police work and given power and authority with little internal constraint. The example(s) given are hideous and the cops should be removed from active duty pending being prosecuted and removed from the police force and jailed. The problem is cops are generally, if found guilty often get off easier then anyone else doing the same crime, they know this and this affects their actions IMO What if a gang of men (not cops) did the same act of stripping and tampon removal I guarantee they would fare far worse then these cops will.

So now its a quality issue. We just need better cops, than wed fare much better in this police state lmao

Its both the quantity and quality of laws, that are the problem. Where's all the gun control folk crowing to take the glocks away from the police? I won't bother crashing patricks server with all the instances of police wrongly shooting, maming, murdering innocent folk in this country,,,

There just isn't any need for this hierarchial system of subordinates and their authorities, granted false empowerment from The State.

errc says

Dan blames conservatives

Actually, I blame the cops and the state for those crimes. Although I do believe that "lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key" conservatives are more likely to accept police violence and crime than liberals even when that crime is perpetrated against innocent individuals. I wish I was wrong about that, but "social conservatives" really don't seem to care how many innocent people suffer in the name of punishing guilty people.

That said, I have called b.s. on any argument that states that unrestricted access to guns makes us safer from government abuse as clearly this isn't the case for the outright insane level of abuse we are already enduring. However, just because this argument is bogus doesn't mean I do not believe there are other legitimate arguments in favor of reducing restrictions on guns. I just don't buy the "militia" argument.

errc says

the topic became politicized (imagine that!).

true, true

errc says

I agree that the anti gun control crowd is bullshit when they say we need guns to protect us from the state, because we have a shitton of guns and NOBODY with the balls to turn them on the real enemy, The State, to protect freedom from tyranny.

Exactly my point. There may be very legitimate reasons to allow civilians to have semi-automatic weapons, even fully automatic assault weapons, but protection from the state isn't one of them. That's the whole point of this thread.

errc says

The left begs for more statism at every turn.

I think both the left at the right are in favor of more government despite what both sides say. The left wants the government to be responsible for more of the economic activity in terms of both employment and services. The right wants the government to spend more on military, spying on civilians, and even law enforcement at the federal level (TSA, FBI, CIA, DHS). I think both types of spending are bad, but the later is scarier.

errc says

Dan8267 says

Being nude in public is illegal, but the state can force you to be nude and assume sexual humiliating poses. Yeah, our laws make a hell of a lot of sense.

And this police state is the stupid republicans fault! Now there's a funky knee slapper, ha ha thanks for the laugh, dan

Actually, I think most people on the left are against public nudity and prostitution while being for strip searches in jails. So the left clearly isn't liberal.

If you can make the White House and Congress secure without strip searching all the people who enter it including the president and senators, then you can make a jail secure without strip searches.

errc says

We just need better cops,

There are only two ways I see of getting good cops.

Option 1

Fire all human cops and use robocops who's software source code is public domain. This, of course, will require many years of development before it is even plausible.

Option 2

1. Video record all police at all times when they are on duty or in possession of their badges or guns.

2. The video must be open to the public without any restriction.

3. Establish a civilian court system that has full authority to prosecute police and government agents for any crime. This court system does not use government employees including judges. The court can convict and sentence police and government agents with the same authority as a government court. The civilian court system will have an appeals process, but no government court, agency, or personnel can override or interfere with the civilian court's affairs.

We need pics of the mom to better assess the situation.

zzyzzx says

We need pics of the mom to better assess the situation.

Dude, if this happened to your mom, would you be so callous?

Dan8267 says

Missouri Police Taser Boy With Broken Back 19 Times

Just to give a bit more backstory about this.

Kid was walking home from a friends house. Forgot to take his diabetes meds. Leaned up against a bridge rail as his insulin crashed. Passed out, Fell off and broke his back. Laughing cops then tased him as he was in a Diabetic Daze with a Broken Back, Ass/U/Meing that he was a druggie. Even if he was a drug addict, it's torture.

Natch, when called in front of the stand, the cops claimed his groping out for help was him trying to punch them.

Dan8267 says

3. Establish a civilian court system that has full authority to prosecute police and government agents for any crime. This court system does not use government employees including judges. The court can convict and sentence police and government agents with the same authority as a government court. The civilian court system will have an appeals process, but no government court, agency, or personnel can override or interfere with the civilian court's affairs.

Cops HATE independent boards overseeing their behavior. They want to police themselves. I think we've had plenty of experience with self-regulation of industries and organizations to know it's crap.

thunderlips11 says

Kid was walking home from a friends house. Forgot to take his diabetes meds. Leaned up against a bridge rail as his insulin crashed. Fell off and broke his back. Laughing cops then tased him as he was in a Diabetic Daze with a Broken Back, Ass/U/Meing that he was a druggie. Even a druggie doesn't deserve to be tortured. Scum

Damn, that's really fucked up. It would be fucked up even if the boy had been a druggie, but being a diabetic in shock and getting tortured like that. That's totally fucked up.

thunderlips11 says

Cops HATE independent boards overseeing their behavior.

All criminals hate independent boards overseeing their behavior. Essentially, the cops are saying they don't want to be subject to laws just like the rest of us are.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

If those kids had Gatling guns in their backbacks, they could have defended mommy and provided a meaningful deterrent to cops trying the same thing in the future.

Exactly. And those kids would have more balls than all the gun advocates combined.

However, it is difficult to man a Gatling gun when you are four years old, as was the older of the two kids, or younger.

Look why do you guys beilieve this lady over the cops? She is probably a liar and looking for a big payday over her fictional story.

and in other news, who the fuck cares...

Seems reasonable to me.

We remove airline passengers' clothes using technology in spite of not having any suspicion.

Extrapolating beyond that, suspicion should merit a cavity search.

Probable cause might be enough for exploratory surgery.

Why was the dentist arrested? he was giving his patients cavity searches.
I thank you.

Dan, your argument that guns in the hands of the general public can't do anything against state dictatorships is wrong. Just by existing, the guns grant a certain amount of caution in both legislation and enforcement. If the state becomes too unpopular, people might choose to revolt.
Now this isn't an easy choice. To decide to use armed resistance against one's nation is tantamount to treason, so it's not a choice made lightly or for purely political reasons. For the average guy to say "fuck it, I've had enough, where's my shotgun?" Takes a lot of commitment. He has to make the judgement that his place in society is not worth the oppression he's facing from the government. That his life isn't worth living under these conditions.
Dan has asked why nobody used arms against the government to free Bradley Manning. Seriously? It's a life and death decision to escalate things this far. You could end up as just the next Timothy mcveigh if your revolution fails: branded domestic terrorist and jailed for life if you're not executed.
The "militia" argument is valid, but only at the extremes of government excess.

It is amazing that such inhumane behaviour for men and women has been accepted as normal . Just sad .

So, what percentage of police/civilian encounters does this abuse take place?
If we are talking thousandths of a percent (0.001%, which I suspect ), then it becomes apparent this is just the price we pay for the police structures we have setup.
There will always be bad apples in any given workforce.
When that number climbs to an unacceptable level, the 300,000,000 guns on the street will speak.

if video taping police activity is against the 2nd amendment, where are the lawsuits?

Quigley says

Dan, your argument that guns in the hands of the general public can't do anything against state dictatorships is wrong. Just by existing, the guns grant a certain amount of caution in both legislation and enforcement. If the state becomes too unpopular, people might choose to revolt.

So far, all gun proliferation has accomplished is to give the police an excuse to treat any citizen contact as if they are confronting a potential murderer. In other words, it has had the opposite effect than what Quigley claims above.

In countries where the police is not allowed to assume that every person could be armed, the police is MUCH more civilized and just in their behavior. In case you were not aware of this fact, observe just about any northern european country.

Is it really plausible that gun proliferation could prevent a totalitarian state? I don't think so, but what it could easily do is to create a totalitarian state by local thug-rule and feudal fascism, either in the form of a police state, or as false reaction to the police state.

I like that phrase: gun proliferation.

Dan8267 says

Cops Strip Search Mom in front of her children, Forcibly Pull Tampon Out of Her

Did slowly retract and a recording played saying...
"Reach for the sky..."
or was it
"To infinity and BEYOND!"

Quigley says

Just by existing, the guns grant a certain amount of caution in both legislation and enforcement.

I have yet to see any of this "caution" exercised by law enforcement. The only difference I've seen in people wielding guns and people not wielding them is that the people who have guns are shot and killed by the police even when the possession of the gun is perfectly legal.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/deputies-shoot-kill-man-knocking-163819466.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1

If I could see just one instance of a person invoking the Stand Your Ground law after killing a cop in self-defense and the state saying that the citizen was lawful to do so, I'd buy your argument. There certainly are plenty of situations every single day where it should be lawful for a citizen to use deadly force against a police officer committing a crime.

What about that poor little boy who was tased repeatedly? Why didn't anyone with a gun stop those cops? And what would happen to anyone who tried?

SoftShell says

So, what percentage of police/civilian encounters does this abuse take place?

If we are talking thousandths of a percent (0.001%, which I suspect )

Whereas you expect this abuse is rare, I expect that it is the norm.

But even if it were rare, our current legal structure does not allow for the prosecution of criminals with police badges. This is why we need a civilian court that does not answer to the government and can arrest, imprison, and execute state criminals including police.

justme says

So far, all gun proliferation has accomplished is to give the police an excuse to treat any citizen contact as if they are confronting a potential murderer. In other words, it has had the opposite effect than what Quigley claims above.

So very true. Unfortunate, but true.

CaptainShuddup says

Dan8267 says

Cops Strip Search Mom in front of her children, Forcibly Pull Tampon Out of Her

Did slowly retract and a recording played saying...

"Reach for the sky..."

or was it

"To infinity and BEYOND!"

Every time I think you've reached a new low in human decency, you pull out a shovel.

Oh! So it was...
"Hi I'm Chunky wanna play?"

So the key to continuing this rant is to find out....."rare or commonplace"....

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

So, what percentage of police/civilian encounters does this abuse take place?

If we are talking thousandths of a percent (0.001%, which I suspect )

Whereas you expect this abuse is rare, I expect that it is the norm.

But even if it were rare, our current legal structure does not allow for the prosecution of criminals with police badges. This is why we need a civilian court that does not answer to the government and can arrest, imprison, and execute state criminals including police.

SoftShell says

So the key to continuing this rant is to find out....."rare or commonplace"....

Pretty hard to do when coverups are common place.

I bet if you were in AZ and shot these cops in retaliation you'd be acquitted.

In CA however, your only right is right to abide what criminals and the unions want you to.