patrick.net

The most depressed people I've ever met, are people that should have been the world's happiest people.

I went though a bout of depression.
It was in a time I should have been doing cartwheels 24/7.
I had just realized a 12 year long dream and closed on my house. I had the ideal dream job, I worked from home and made more that I have ever had in my life. I had a music studio in my house bigger than most people's living room. I was living my dream. But I was in this low funk I couldn't shake. I didn't let it drag me down. I kept asking my self, "Why am I so blue?".
Finally my open contract I had been working for two years fell apart, due to internal company changes. Then the person that I was the resource for was let go, then subsequently so was I.
I quickly found another job, making a little less, but it got me out of the house. Then I started coming around. And realized that I had spent a good 97% of my time at home for the last 2 years, and that was why I was depressed. I didn't have much social interaction out side of conference calls, and the internet.

Now I'm just a wonderful beacon of sunshine.

The Professor says

Maybe there is a reason so many Americans are depressed.

Drugs, for the most part relieve symptoms. The underlying cause of much depression (in my opinion) is the helplessness many feel about their day to day situations.

Instead of getting to the root of the problem many doctors just say, "Take a pill".

They don't want us buying drugs they aren't selling, they want us buying drugs big brother wants us to buy.

CaptainShuddup says

It was in a time I should have been doing cartwheels 24/7.

I had just realized a 12 year long dream and closed on my house. I had the ideal dream job, I worked from home and made more that I have ever had in my life. I had a music studio in my house bigger than most people's living room. I was living my dream. But I was in this low funk I couldn't shake. I didn't let it drag me down. I kept asking my self, "Why am I so blue?".

Sometimes the dream is better than the reality.

The Professor says

Instead of getting to the root of the problem many doctors just say, "Take a pill".

The Pharm lobby is even more dangerous than the gun lobby IMO.

Mood altering drugs scare me much more than AK-47s.

Know or Now that is the question......

Seems to me that the study was funded by coffee makers.

People are always looking for cause & effect - and if they can't find one, they'll make it up. It makes them feel better if they can explain something.

I see this in healthcare all the time - for example, family members that blame medication overdose as the reason that a patient died rather than accepting that the patient was dying and the meds made them more comfortable.

My favorite spoof on cause & effect - do you remember those Karl Malden traveler's checks commercials? Where it would show someone stranded in a foreign country because their money was lost or stolen - then Karl would step in and ask if that had happened to you... and tell you that if you had traveler's checks they would have been replaced and you'd be okay.

So, didn't anyone find it suspicious that, whenever someone's money was stolen, Karl Malden was always there?

CaptainShuddup says

Now I'm just a wonderful beacon of sunshine.

Lol

The Professor says

The underlying cause of much depression (in my opinion) is the helplessness many feel about their day to day situations.

Usually it's caused by lack of exercise. Depression is a disease of affluence, i.e. it occurs primarily in populations that have achieved comfortable and mostly sedentary lifestyles. Genuine studies, not funded by PhRMA, have shown that physical exercise outperforms "anti-depressant" pills every time, and it costs nothing. I was sad to read about the suicide of Aaron Swartz, who had been complaining of depression. I don't know what pills he may have been prescribed, but some SSRIs double the risk of suicide, while a daily walk or swim might have saved him.

[UPDATED: On January 17, The Los Angeles Times quoted Aaron's father: "He had never been diagnosed as having depression; he was never on medication for having depression.... So the notion, the narrative that people are going to say -- is that he’s somebody who just has depression -- is just wrong. You’d be depressed too if you were under a 13-count federal indictment and you go see your mother, who’s in a coma." Sometimes parents don't always know the complete medical information of their kids, for example Target reportedly upset a father who didn't know his daughter was pregnant, but in fairness I wanted to update this post.]

Lack of exercise, bad diet. Might well be that depression is caused, among other things, by a lack of omega 3 fatty acids in the brain. DHA is critical to proper myelination of neurons. Contrary to popular belief, depression is not caused by a prozac deficiency.

MMR says

Lack of exercise, bad diet. Might well be that depression is caused, among other things, by a lack of omega 3 fatty acids in the brain. DHA is critical to proper myelination of neurons. Contrary to popular belief, depression is not caused by a prozac deficiency.

B12 is also very important for myelination, and methylcobalamin is the preferred version for supplementation for most (most contain the vastly inferior cyanocobalamin).

Goran_K says

The Pharm lobby is even more dangerous than the gun lobby IMO.

Mood altering drugs scare me much more than AK-47s.

This is just alarmist bullshit. Tell us exactly which "mood altering drug" is making people "dangerous".

Alternatives are offered: group therapy and classes on dealing with depression. They don't always work. Sometimes depression has a "cause"; sometimes it doesn't. It can be a debilitating illness. Countless lives have been saved with medication. Major depression is not just feeling "down" or "having the blues". If it hasn't happened to you then you can't possibly understand how serious it is. The fact is, we don't know what causes depression; we only know it exists. To say that nobody should use medication if it can help is just ridiculous.

SSRIs increase the level of serotonin in the brain. It's not a cure, and nobody has ever said it was. Just as aspirin doesn't cure a headache, but it relieves suffering. SSRIs have side effects. It's not an exact science. But for someone who can't even get out of bed because of depression, it's worth the trade-off. By the way, Prozac is the worst one. They have come out with much better drugs with fewer side effects since Prozac.

CaptainShuddup says

Now how I can tell this is bullshit?

That's because your nose is too close to your asshole.

I guess it's a lot easier for some people to believe there's a massive government conspiracy than to believe that mental illness exists.

Homeboy says

This is just alarmist bullshit. Tell us exactly which "mood altering drug" is making people "dangerous".

If you took the time to read the (possible) side-effects section of all mood-altering drugs on the market and count how many have the word 'suicidal' (which can go hand in hand with homicidal) in it, then you would know how dangerous they are.

Homeboy says

I guess it's a lot easier for some people to believe there's a massive government conspiracy than to believe that mental illness exists.

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you."

You might want to read about what's been happening in Florida, with juvies forced onto Rx drugs that can leave them with life-long side effects, for the enrichment of PhRMA and Medicaid prescribers. And you might want to read about the deal between PhRMA and the White House (which the White House initially denied but then admitted) to support Obamacare. And count the ads on the evening news, to see whom it's brought to you by (mostly PhRMA). It isn't about health or illness, it's about money and power.

Or just stick with your Stockholm Syndrome and selective Credulous Personality Disorder, praising the purveyors of disproved treatments and demanding that they must be paid even more ransom. It's only life, after all.

mell says

If you took the time to read the (possible) side-effects section of all mood-altering drugs on the market and count how many have the word 'suicidal' (which can go hand in hand with homicidal) in it, then you would know how dangerous they are.

I already know that Prozac has been associated with occasional risk of suicidal thoughts. But there are far more people who without a doubt would have killed themselves if they hadn't had medication. SSRIs have saved many, many more lives than they have taken. You need to educate yourself. You are reacting out of ignorance and fear.

Some people are allergic to penicillin. Should we stop allowing anyone to use penicillin?

Homeboy says

But there are far more people who without a doubt would have killed themselves if they hadn't had medication.

The statistics are exactly opposite. You attempt to refute them with a counterfactual narrative, "without a doubt," which is fundamentalism not science. To the extent some people improve while on pills, it isn't because of the pills; nearly the same number improve on placebo, and without side effects. Even the manufacturers' own paid "studies" admit only 10% "benefit" compared to placebo, and they are notorious for cherry-picking their studies including adjusting the timing so that the "study" ends when the coin-toss is mostly heads. In contrast, a daily walk or swim does produce statistically significant improvement, with only positive side effects. But your comments illustrate the essence of Obamacare: a policy demanded by the mentally ill and delusional, supplied by lobbyists who gain money and power keeping them that way.

Homeboy says

SSRIs have saved many, many more lives than they have taken.

Why don't you educate yourself and pull up the suicide rates in the US between 1950 and 2005 (or any other period) and you can't see any trend at all. I think the best claim anybody can make is that they saved as many as they have taken, which does not bode well as an argument to take any drug. Here is another link actually partially defending SSRIs, but also coming to the conclusion that they are at best neutral.

http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/2010/05/ssris-and-suicide.html

So I think it should be ok to be skeptical of them. Penicillin has a clear effect on the pathogens it targets and there is also a clear allergy profile. None of this is true for SSRIs.

mell says

Penicillin has a clear effect on the pathogens it targets and there is also a clear allergy profile. None of this is true for SSRIs.

Exactly. A basic problem is PhRMA gets drugs approved based on minimally "significant" effect, which they can simulate by manipulating the "studies". Really effective drugs like aspirin and penicillin have obvious effects, greater than 50% difference compared to placebo. If you insist on at least a 50% difference between the treatment group and the placebo group, it's harder to fake, but the law doesn't require that, because it would cut into revenues and spending. Above 50%, you can say something probably works as described; below 50%, it is more accurate to say that it probably won't help. Nevertheless, Obamacare requires you to pay for it either way, which is the point: paying politicians to require people to buy stuff that a rational person would not buy, at a price that a rational person would not pay.

mell says

Why don't you educate yourself and pull up the suicide rates in the US between 1950 and 2005 (or any other period) and you can't see any trend at all.

This is absurd on its face. You are claiming a correlation between suicide rates in the 1950s and SSRIs, which weren't developed until the 1970s. Do you even listen to yourself? LOL.

mell says

I think the best claim anybody can make is that they saved as many as they have taken, which does not bode well as an argument to take any drug.

Totally made up. You have absolutely no evidence to support that statement.

mell says

Penicillin has a clear effect on the pathogens it targets and there is also a clear allergy profile. None of this is true for SSRIs.

Studies of SSRIs have shown a clear effect for people with major depression. If you want to ignore reality and believe in your conspiracy theories, go right ahead. I will stick with the truth.

mell says

count how many have the word 'suicidal' (which can go hand in hand with homicidal)

No it doesn't. Making stuff up again, I see.

The Professor says

Drugs, for the most part relieve symptoms. The underlying cause of much depression (in my opinion) is the helplessness many feel about their day to day situations.

similar to other depressants used in USSR..
Vodka .. slipping and falling all day long.

Homeboy says

This is absurd on its face. You are claiming a correlation between suicide rates in the 1950s and SSRIs, which weren't developed until the 1970s. Do you even listen to yourself? LOL.

That shows that whatever was tried during that period didn't have much effect. You don't have to start at 1950, you can start at 1980 if you want. That was a weak attempt to ridicule. Medicine is one area where you cannot lecture me - although I am always looking to broaden my knowledge if you can present any meaningful data, so far you haven't.

Homeboy says

mell says

count how many have the word 'suicidal' (which can go hand in hand with homicidal)

No it doesn't. Making stuff up again, I see.

Here's a good summary on the topic, you don't have to accept it but at least it may get you thinking:
http://www.encognitive.com/node/886

mell says

That shows that whatever was tried during that period didn't have much effect. You don't have to start at 1950, you can start at 1980 if you want. That was a weak attempt to ridicule. Medicine is one area where you cannot lecture me - although I am always looking to broaden my knowledge if you can present any meaningful data, so far you haven't.

I didn't start at 1950, YOU did. Now your argument is what - that ALL medications tried between 1950 and 1980 cause suicides? Certainly you have heard the maxim that correlation does not imply causation.

It would be useless to lecture you on medicine. You don't even understand the rudiments of science or even simple logic, let alone medicine.

mell says

Here's a good summary on the topic, you don't have to accept it but at least it may get you thinking:

http://www.encognitive.com/node/886

I'm always thinking. The difference is I don't STOP thinking when I read some alarmist nonsense on the internet. Obviously, you do. See, this is the problem when you get all your information from bogus websites.

Where to begin...? First of all, the warnings on medications are things that could POSSIBLY happen. They are things that have happened in a very tiny number of people in test cases. If bad side effects were occurring in a majority of users of the drug, it would never get approved, or it would be pulled off the market.

Does this Moira Dolan, M.D present any evidence that "suicide and homicide go hand in hand", as you claim? Any evidence at all? Nope. Any statistics, charts, or graphs? Nope.

mell says

although I am always looking to broaden my knowledge if you can present any meaningful data, so far you haven't.

You are the one claiming that antidepressants are the sole cause of an increase in suicide rate between 1950 and now, that antidepressants take more lives than they save, and that suicide is tantamount to homicide. Therefore, the onus is on you to provide the evidence to support your claim.

Homeboy says

You are the one claiming that antidepressants are the sole cause of an increase in suicide rate between 1950 and now, that antidepressants take more lives than they save

I would agree with that.

That's not to say, that I don't think that there are those that are clinically depressed and anti depressants help them tremendously. Though for most of those people it often takes years of going from one to the next before they find one that in spite the short comings of the pill, makes their life easier to live.

But still how ever, anti depressants are wayyyyy over prescribed, they tried to give that shit to my wife and it made her suicidal and defeated, she just wanted to die. WHY? She wasn't depressed to begin with, she had chronic roving intense muscle pains all over her body, the Doctors couldn't make an acurate diagnosis, so they gave her Ambian and then Cembaltra. In fact Cembaltra is now a common Arthritis remedy prescribed by Doctors. I would follow the statistics of Arthritic suicide rates in this country over the next 5 years.

Homeboy says

You are the one claiming that antidepressants are the sole cause of an increase in suicide rate between 1950 and now, that antidepressants take more lives than they save, and that suicide is tantamount to homicide. Therefore, the onus is on you to provide the evidence to support your claim.

No I didn't, I came in somewhere in between your opinion and what you perceived my opinion is. I'd go with what the Captain said here. I had the same experience after being stuck with a clearly physical condition for a while that was just a bit too complex for the mainstream docs to waste their precious time with, so at the end of the consultation I always saw a bottle of Cymbalta gradually sliding towards my direction. At first I thought it was an outlier, but it was the norm with most docs. I had to research and resolve it myself and with the help of a good functional doc out of my network which I have been paying ever since. Some docs even said "oh wait, it also has pain relieving properties if you don't want to think of it as an anti-depressant" ;) Some SSRIs actually even posses immuno-modulatory / stimulating properties, so by all means keep researching.

CaptainShuddup says

But still how ever, anti depressants are wayyyyy over prescribed, they tried to give that shit to my wife and it made her suicidal and defeated, she just wanted to die. WHY? She wasn't depressed to begin with, she had chronic roving intense muscle pains all over her body, the Doctors couldn't make an acurate diagnosis, so they gave her Ambian and then Cembaltra. In fact Cembaltra is now a common Arthritis remedy prescribed by Doctors. I would follow the statistics of Arthritic suicide rates in this country over the next 5 years.

Most chronic conditions are so tough to figure out and treat that they take the easy way by numbing the patient down with SSRIs. Sometimes they also, prescribe immuno-suppressors, be on the lookout, similar issues as with SSRIs (side-effects). There is a lot of exciting new research going on in the realm of chronic conditions such as arthritis focusing more on pathogens/toxins and assuming the body has a reason to respond like it does instead of just shutting its defenses down with a sledge-hammer. Also there are natural inhibitors of chronic inflammation that are equally potent and have far less side effects such as (concentrated) Turmeric of which you can take a high daily dose without issues. Might not be a total cure, but worth a try. Good luck!

I finally cured her with Flexeril and Tylenol(the two lesser drugs one could take) two chiropractor visits and 3 deep tissue massages. all out of pocket of course. The doctors kept her in writhing pain for 4 months.
She's been pain free or has manageable shoulder twinges now for three weeks.

I think she over did it on the antioxidants and was overly stressed over her false cancer scare. We thought she would be a goner for about two months. Which that's another rant altogether.

Homeboy says

First of all, the warnings on medications are things that could POSSIBLY happen. They are things that have happened in a very tiny number of people in test cases. If bad side effects were occurring in a majority of users of the drug, it would never get approved, or it would be pulled off the market.

If you read the manufacturers' own studies, adverse side effect rates approach 50% vs placebo, while benefit is (at best and according to the manufacturers) around 10%. FDA ordered GSK to stop selling paroxetine to children, because there was no benefit. FDA further required a black box warning, their strongest warning category, regarding the risks of suicidal ideation and possible suicidality. Huge numbers of people have reported adverse effects, but there's also a huge amount of $$$ being made, so they stay on the market. As for the few who claim benefits, it's the placebo effect not the drug; eventually people get better, but they credit whatever drug they happen to be taking at that time. And, contrary to advertisers' and even doctors' assurances, the SSRIs with shorter serum half-lives (e.g. paroxetine) are known to cause physical dependence, more strongly than cocaine. So it's easy to see why Homeboy defends them. Addicts always defend their pushers and rationalize continuing their addiction.

The worst trick is Obamacare, shifting the financial cost of that addiction onto everyone else via mandatory subsidized insurance. And, now that government can make you buy products and submit to involuntary contracts with corporations that bribe the legislators, big PhRMA can gets its hooks into even more people. You don't benefit, but they make $$$ at your expense.

Homeboy calls that a "conspiracy" theory, but the deals were widely reported in plain sight.

She's already getting much better.
What REALLY had her fucked up was the Doctor telling her that she had fibromyalgia then she Googled it, and saw that most that had it, claimed there was no cure, and that she could expect to hurt like that forever.
It seems to me, it's one of those things that if you resign to hurting the rest of your life, while taking the standard prescribed treatment, then that's what you'll get.

I call it the "You're crazy lady" decease or the "it's nothing wrong with you that a good romp in the sack wont cure" but the Doctor can't tell them that. SO they make up absurd names for it.
Like "Restless Leg Syndrome", "Firbromyalgia" and "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome"

And create a revolving door of prescriptions and specialist referrals.

mell says

Most chronic conditions are so tough to figure out and treat that they take the easy way by numbing the patient down with SSRIs. Sometimes they also, prescribe immuno-suppressors, be on the lookout, similar issues as with SSRIs (side-effects). There is a lot of exciting new research going on in the realm of chronic conditions such as arthritis focusing more on pathogens/toxins and assuming the body has a reason to respond like it does instead of just shutting its defenses down with a sledge-hammer. Also there are natural inhibitors of chronic inflammation that are equally potent and have far less side effects such as (concentrated) Turmeric of which you can take a high daily dose without issues. Might not be a total cure, but worth a try. Good luck!

Are you a physician?

mell says

Homeboy says

You are the one claiming that antidepressants are the sole cause of an increase in suicide rate between 1950 and now, that antidepressants take more lives than they save, and that suicide is tantamount to homicide. Therefore, the onus is on you to provide the evidence to support your claim.

No I didn't, I came in somewhere in between your opinion and what you perceived my opinion is.

It's right up there for everyone to read, you can't waffle on it now.

You wrote: "Why don't you educate yourself and pull up the suicide rates in the US between 1950 and 2005 (or any other period) and you can't see any trend at all. I think the best claim anybody can make is that they saved as many as they have taken, which does not bode well as an argument to take any drug"

You cited an increase in suicide rates as supposed evidence that antidepressants cause suicides.

And before that, you wrote: "the word 'suicidal' (which can go hand in hand with homicidal"

So yeah, you did say that stuff.

CaptainShuddup says

That's not to say, that I don't think that there are those that are clinically depressed and anti depressants help them tremendously. Though for most of those people it often takes years of going from one to the next before they find one that in spite the short comings of the pill, makes their life easier to live.

Well, Captain, I wish there was a magic pill that instantly cures depression, but that just doesn't exist. What we have are some meds that help people manage the symptoms, and that's far more than we had 100 years ago, when we just put people into mental institutions and let them suffer. If you want to imagine that they're killing more people than they're saving, and that this is some kind of conspiracy to kill people, go ahead. You don't have any proof of that. This stuff doesn't work for everyone, but it has worked for a lot of people, and saved untold numbers of lives and saved an untold amount of suffering.

Homeboy says

What we have are some meds that help people manage the symptoms, and that's far more than we had 100 years ago, when we just put people into mental institutions and let them suffer.

You haven't listed your other symptoms or mental illnesses, but 100 years ago most people got more exercise, and very few complained of depression. It was at that time called melancholy, and was limited to the few people who could live sedentary lives and who failed to get enough exercise. The best treatment was, and still is, "an afternoon constitutional," i.e. a vigorous daily walk. Today, more than 10% of Americans are on SSRIs. There was never a time when 10% of Americans were in mental institutions.

I couldn't understand before why you became so explosive in attacking me for criticizing Obamacare; you refused to read, and instead you called me all sorts of names. Now I see, you want Obamacare so you can be sure nothing will interrupt your supply of toxic, costly, habit-forming pills, so you won't have to go through withdrawal. Being an addict, you lash out when people try to tell you the truth.

Homeboy says

This stuff doesn't work for everyone, but it has worked for a lot of people, and saved untold numbers of lives and saved an untold amount of suffering.

SSRIs don't work for anyone. People try several different pills until they get better, and along the way they get better on their own. None of the pills worked, but the pushers are paid to tell you they do, and to keep pushing them. It isn't exactly a "conspiracy to kill people," it is instead "a big [something] deal" to make a lot of money.

Homeboy says

Well, Captain, I wish there was a magic pill that instantly cures depression, but that just doesn't exist. What we have are some meds that help people manage the symptoms, and that's far more than we had 100 years ago, when we just put people into mental institutions and let them suffer. If you want to imagine that they're killing more people than they're saving, and that this is some kind of conspiracy to kill people, go ahead. You don't have any proof of that. This stuff doesn't work for everyone, but it has worked for a lot of people, and saved untold numbers of lives and saved an untold amount of suffering.

I don't doubt that, but I bet the numbers are like 50/50 for ever person it helps it makes matters ten times worse for someone else.

Doctors and Pharms should be held accountable for those it doesn't help.
Because as it is, we seem to look at like, well in the trials it helped 10 people, so if it gives you anal warts, high blood pressure, suicidal thoughts, bladder infection, and heart decease, then it's your defect not the pill. And THAT wraps up the whole mentality of the Big Pharm and Doctors that prescribe their poison with impunity. That is why the list of what a drug helps is only three word comment, but the possible side effects are 20 paragraphs. And if you experience any, then it's your defect not the medicine.

What in the hell is wrong with you defending this Shit?

CaptainShuddup says

I don't doubt that, but I bet the numbers are like 50/50 for ever person it helps it makes matters ten times worse for someone else.

That is a completely made-up statistic. It's nowhere close to 50-50, and you don't have the slightest bit of evidence suggesting that it is. And it's simply absurd. If studies had shown that 1 of every 2 people had symptoms "10 times worse" than they did before taking the drug, it would NEVER have been approved. You know perfectly well you're spreading a bald-faced lie.

Do doctors mis-diagnose sometimes? Sure they do. I was diagnosed with asthma because of a lingering cough where they couldn't figure out the cause. I was given an inhaler. It did nothing for me; maybe made me cough a bit more if anything. Now, did I flip out and start ranting about asthma inhalers being poison and that nobody should ever be allowed to use an asthma inhaler? No, because I'm not an idiot.

You admit that SSRIs help people, yet you are siding with the people who say nobody should ever be allowed to take them. So I'll use the same example again: Penicillin "makes things worse" for some people. Should we stop allowing ANYONE to use it?