patrick.net

It is far more important to increase the number of healthy years. Living an unhealthy life can be miserable.

I think people need to eat less but better.

Until 12-21-2012.

Eating vegan/vegetarian is the way to go if you want to extend your healthy years and I'd imagine total years as well. I just started October 1st and I love it.

woppa says

Eating vegan/vegetarian is the way to go if you want to extend your healthy years and I'd imagine total years as well. I just started October 1st and I love it.

Health is not worth it if there is no meat.

I need at least fish.

woppa says

Eating vegan/vegetarian is the way to go if you want to extend your healthy years and I'd imagine total years as well. I just started October 1st and I love it.

That's not really true - it depends on the frequency of meat consumption and the type of meat as well as the type of vegetarian foods. If you have a decent intake of fish/white meat and a moderate intake of grass-fed healthy beef/bison similar there is nothing to suggest that a fully vegetarian diet is superior, rather the opposite. But compared to the meat and amounts the avg. American currently eats, going vegetarian/vegan is likely healthier and also more economical and ethical.

mell says

But compared to the meat and amounts the avg. American currently eats, going vegetarian/vegan is likely healthier and also more economical and ethical.

It is true that most American can benefit from eating less meat and more vegetable.

But come on, food is morally neutral. ;-)

Peter P says

mell says

But compared to the meat and amounts the avg. American currently eats, going vegetarian/vegan is likely healthier and also more economical and ethical.

It is true that most American can benefit from eating less meat and more vegetable.

But come on, food is morally neutral. ;-)

I wish because I like meat although I don't eat much anymore - I'd say it is more ethical if you gather and hunt it yourself ;)

Eating less meat is probably good for you anyway. (Less, not none.)

I prefer meats from well-treated animals because they taste better. I am willing to pay a 300% premium for it. I will just eat less meat.

That said, I would be reluctant to mandate that all animals be treated well.

Well, regardless of research, I will not give up meat. Not even if it can extend my life by 10+ years.

Call it Crazy says

Oh, come on, don't go half way.... You have to go for the complete cow!!

Yeah, I need beef, my favorite meat. Medium-rare bone-in rib-eye or medium-well Kobe.

underwaterman says

This isn't true.

Dude - it takes less than 30 seconds on google to find complete rips of your 'heroes'.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-china-study-revisited/

I am not arguing ethical and economical here and don't want to discourage people at all from going vegetarian/vegan, but claims like these are outrageous and potentially dangerous. Furthermore genetic markup and metabolisms are very different based on race and location (over time). If you think that The Centenarians of Okinawa or those of the Caucasus would be healthier and living longer on a meat-less diet, then you need to stop believing everything you read.

I like a nice New York steak sometimes. But my eyes are usually drawn to anything "boned-in."

But 16 oz is too much meat for me nowadays. 5 oz of Kobe would be perfect. :-)

I am a vegan between meals.

I live to eat. Thank you very much.

Anyone can draw any conclusion from anything. Expert or not.

Steve Jobs was an angry man. That got to have something to do with it.

It is amazing what stress can do to you.

I generally agree with underwaterman and eat a diet very close to McDougall's.

I got the link to this study on McDougall's discussion site. They often discuss quality of life and 'compressing' the sick years or extending the healthy ones, and that was why someone posted this over there.

Personally, I got into it to avoid medications and health issues in the second half of my life. I was surprised to find that within 2 months, I lost 20 lbs, was at my high school weight, and felt great.

Peter P says

Anyone can draw any conclusion from anything. Expert or not.

You're quite the nhilist. This is an empty argument. I could just as easily repeat this when you make some claim on capitalism, but it would not add to the discussion.

After reading a few books & articles, I went with the whole foods vegan crowd. The preponderance of evidence pointed that way. Also, the movement leaders were more convincing. As well as their credentials, we have this...

http://youtu.be/2zVxA6yipv4

It's amazing how healthy and inexpensive the finest organically grown bulk dry goods are. Especially when you factor in avoided 'disease care' costs. Growing a garden is the ultimate life extending activity. And when you add the fresh flavors and subtract the trips to the store that you no longer need to make it's a no brainer.

Great gardening video. If you are offended by positive references to God do not click here: http://backtoedenfilm.com/#movie

Underwater man I agree with you whole heartedly. I eat a plant based whole foods diet as well. I still haven't tried a "boca burger" or the many other processed foods. I also try to buy organic and locally grown as much as possible. Denise Minger is a paleo diet advocate I believe. The two diets are basically completely at odds. Paleo eaters think sausage smothered in butter is a great breakfast. Let's think about this in small terms for a second. Meat is calorie dense, all meat has cholesterol and similar amounts of it, shellfish has even higher levels, and red meat is like 2/3 calories from fat. Vegetables have no saturated fat, no cholesterol, very low in calories, you can pretty much eat as much as you want and not worry about over eating. Loaded with vitamins, antioxidants, which meat is lacking. Which is better?

I can't wait to hear someone tell me you can't get protein from vegetables.

I also lost 20 lbs in two months, almost without trying. I am 6 foot 191 now. I would like to lose another 15.

Dr Caldwell Esselstyn is also a plants based whole food proponent, after being raised eating meat on a farm in NY. His son is a Texas firefighter and marathon runner, he eats vegan whole foods, no oil, no processed crap, etc. I find it amazing how people liken vegans/vegetarians to religious fanatics, when the evidence is abundant. In truth everyone clutching to the standard American diet is much more fanatical in nature, just believing what they've been taught and told. I am a firefighter in NYC, you can't imagine how at odds this diet is with the culture of my job. I have been told I am child abusing my kids for not letting them eat hot dogs and McDonald's, I eat rabbit food, soy is going to make me grow tits, and the list goes on. The words themselves may be exaggerated and in jest, we break each others balls all the time, but the sentiments behind them are definitely representative of what people really believe.

A imagine the response from anyone transported from pre 1940 into a modern grocery store in the US would be "WTF" is all this stuff.

stencilled on a sf mission sidewalk: “eat pussy, not cow"

Never read so much bullshit in one thread. The interesting thing here though is that basically everybody agrees that the focus should be on plant-based foods, yet you keep peddling going 100% vegetarian - or worse - vegan. Funny also that you mention athletes, esp. marathon runners. Those and triathletes usually consume colostrum regularly because it enhances their fitness (it is close to mothers milk) and boosts their immune system while it's under stress. Good dairy (e.g. raw organic milk and kefir/yoghurt and colostrum) is extremely nutritious and good for your body. It is also hogwash to claim that all researchers are biased because they get funding from industries you don't like. No wonder people compare you to religious fanatics although if I had the choice between the two I would def choose the vegans ;)

Peter P says

Anyone can draw any conclusion from anything. Expert or not.

Steve Jobs was an angry man. That got to have something to do with it.

It is amazing what stress can do to you.

Every researcher is wrong except for those you believe to be right ;)

mell says

Peter P says

Anyone can draw any conclusion from anything. Expert or not.

Steve Jobs was an angry man. That got to have something to do with it.

It is amazing what stress can do to you.

Every researcher is wrong except for those you believe to be right ;)

No, even those I like are wrong. ;-)

Underwaterman, the problem is people associate a negative connotation with the words vegan/vegetarian. This is from the wiki page on Campbell...

Campbell has followed a 99 percent vegan diet since around 1990. He does not identify himself as a vegetarian or vegan. He told an interviewer in 2007: "I never intended to seek out evidence to support vegetarianism or veganism because of any preconceived ideas or experiences. Indeed, I tend not to use the 'V' words because they often infer something other than what I espouse."

I dont know much about McDougall, but I know Esselstyn is a vegan. I have given up on trying to convince people about eating this way, either they are willfully blind to the benefits, are too lazy to learn and commit to the lifestyle, or just don't care to be healthy. It takes a rare and special person to eat this way honestly.

underwaterman says

mell says

yet you keep peddling going 100% vegetarian - or worse - vegan

This is how I know you don't know anything about diet. McDougall and Campbell are not vegan. The are whole plant starch based. I will leave it to you to understand the difference since you are so hostile.

Agreed I was more hostile than usual and I apologize for that, again, I generally commend vegetarians and vegans (esp. on the ethical and economical aspect), but I strongly disagree that a diary-free and meat-free diet is healthier and the vast evidence currently supports this. I actually do have a medical background and have done a lot of research on nutrition and it makes me agitated because there are people who can become seriously nutrient deficient by going vegan/vegetarian and you are doing them a disservice. That being said, if you know exactly what foods to eat and in what quantity and how to supplement (B12, D3 and others) if necessary, the benefits of going fully plant-based likely outweigh the disadvantages if you are coming from a traditional American meat-biased diet. However, avoiding any type of meat and/or dairy is NOT healthier according to current research (it's is simply inferior nutrition-wise to cut out a whole type of foods entirely unless you are allergic to it). Saying that the vast majority of scientist are biased puts you deep in conspiracy theory land and can make you justify anything.

Mell is much nicer to vegetarians and vegans than I am. Regardless of facts I will never agree with them. I will have my meat.

People do not spend whole careers finding out the truth. They spend whole careers proving their purported "truths."

This is where Fundamentalist Scientism becomes harmful.

Science ought to give as data points. And individuals will draw conclusions from it. It is not a way to make everybody live the same life.

underwaterman says

mell says

It is also hogwash to claim that all researchers are biased

Mel, your the one citing a paleo diet expert hiding on a supposed "scientific website" as proof that Colin Campbells research is flawed when she has no credentials (Denise Minger simply has a BA in English). When called on this, you react emotionally and call it "Bullshit" and "Hogwash".

Refute the claims based with evidence and cite your sources.

You will find that the citations of McDougall and Campbell are rock solid.

The true wackos are the people like Denise Minger hiding themselves trying

to pose as experts and unsuspecting 10 second googlers like you drive by

and push their crap.

You know as well as I do what the current consensus is and that the opinions you mentioned are in the minority - that may change over time or it may not. No need to go into a link-posting frenzy.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/can-athletes-perform-well-on-a-vegan-diet/

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/nutrition/meat.htm

There are some studies mentioned in there. Again, an 80/20 plant/meat ratio which includes dairy I consider most superior according to current research. However, it is far more important what quality the food is vs what type of food it is. Medical science is formed by consensus, not by figuring out who is the better expert - yet it can still be wrong. It is more of an art that is constantly evolving than an exact science. It is most dangerous to believe in one point and stick to it, neglecting the evolvement of science. 80% of doctors/scientist you ask today would recommend a little of "good" meat and dairy in your diet, or at least be a pescetarian.

underwaterman says

mell says

It is most dangerous to believe in one point and stick to it,

We agree on this point. It is definitely dangerous to eat a meat and dairy diet and stick to it despite strong science to the contrary.

There is a difference between a meat-based diet and a diet containing meat as in once a week a good grass-fed organic bison/beef steak or being a pescetarian. I am constantly experimenting, still continuously reducing my meat intake to very low levels (but prob never cut out fish). But I can see there's controversy around meat. What I cannot comprehend though is how anybody would argue that Kefir is not healthy. I would be interested in links or any evidence that would make you think this besides the sole fact that is belong into the dairy category. Also, while knowing that longevity is not necessarily always the same as quality of health/life, I wonder how you'd explain this list which is mostly comprised of people from countries that are pescetarian and/or have meat at least being a part of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_verified_oldest_people

underwaterman says

mell says

80% of doctors/scientist you ask today

Doctors receive about 4 credit hours in nutrition training in their entire career.

They are severely undereducated on nutrition. This is why it takes doctors like

Mcdougall and Campbell 40 years to reverse course and find out the truth through research.

That's a fair point, however I'd argue that even most functional docs and those emphasizing on nutrition currently lean that way (as well as the total of nutritional scientists).

underwaterman says

Let's look at one of your sources and analyze them:

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/nutrition/meat.htm

The main argument presented is that:

On a Vegetarian Diet There’s a 93% Chance
You’re Not Getting Enough Zinc

Don't focus on the author/opinion, what about the Burr and Sweetnam study from 1982 mentioned in this article? I see this study referenced quite a bit in scientific articles.

Lol Alan Sears is absolutely the definition of quack. Another paleo diet advocate.

underwaterman says

Wrong. Many athletes are on a plant based diet and definitely do not consume colostrum. Don't know where you got that one from.

C'mon now (I was specifically mentioning endurance athletes such as triathletes):

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2010/06/16/neovite-colostrum-helps-endurance-athletes/

You can find dozens of studies being conducted right now.

woppa says

Lol Alan Sears is absolutely the definition of quack. Another paleo diet advocate.

It's their opinion like you have yours, focus on the scientific studies mentioned in those articles:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/36/5/873.short

Quacks as well?

underwaterman says

His first aha experience was taking care of phillipinos on the hawaii plantations where the parents almost had no health problems but the kids had all kinds of health problems and he couldn't understand how this could be because they were taught in medical school most diseases are genetic.

On the short term they are genetic, but genetic expressions are influenced by nutrition and vice versa. That's why different cultures have different nutritional needs and weaknesses (such as favism, lactose or gluten intolerance etc.), based on their genetic evolution and diet throughout time.