patrick.net

I live to eat. Thank you very much.

Anyone can draw any conclusion from anything. Expert or not.

Steve Jobs was an angry man. That got to have something to do with it.

It is amazing what stress can do to you.

I generally agree with underwaterman and eat a diet very close to McDougall's.

I got the link to this study on McDougall's discussion site. They often discuss quality of life and 'compressing' the sick years or extending the healthy ones, and that was why someone posted this over there.

Personally, I got into it to avoid medications and health issues in the second half of my life. I was surprised to find that within 2 months, I lost 20 lbs, was at my high school weight, and felt great.

Peter P says

Anyone can draw any conclusion from anything. Expert or not.

You're quite the nhilist. This is an empty argument. I could just as easily repeat this when you make some claim on capitalism, but it would not add to the discussion.

After reading a few books & articles, I went with the whole foods vegan crowd. The preponderance of evidence pointed that way. Also, the movement leaders were more convincing. As well as their credentials, we have this...

http://youtu.be/2zVxA6yipv4

It's amazing how healthy and inexpensive the finest organically grown bulk dry goods are. Especially when you factor in avoided 'disease care' costs. Growing a garden is the ultimate life extending activity. And when you add the fresh flavors and subtract the trips to the store that you no longer need to make it's a no brainer.

Great gardening video. If you are offended by positive references to God do not click here: http://backtoedenfilm.com/#movie

Underwater man I agree with you whole heartedly. I eat a plant based whole foods diet as well. I still haven't tried a "boca burger" or the many other processed foods. I also try to buy organic and locally grown as much as possible. Denise Minger is a paleo diet advocate I believe. The two diets are basically completely at odds. Paleo eaters think sausage smothered in butter is a great breakfast. Let's think about this in small terms for a second. Meat is calorie dense, all meat has cholesterol and similar amounts of it, shellfish has even higher levels, and red meat is like 2/3 calories from fat. Vegetables have no saturated fat, no cholesterol, very low in calories, you can pretty much eat as much as you want and not worry about over eating. Loaded with vitamins, antioxidants, which meat is lacking. Which is better?

I can't wait to hear someone tell me you can't get protein from vegetables.

I also lost 20 lbs in two months, almost without trying. I am 6 foot 191 now. I would like to lose another 15.

Dr Caldwell Esselstyn is also a plants based whole food proponent, after being raised eating meat on a farm in NY. His son is a Texas firefighter and marathon runner, he eats vegan whole foods, no oil, no processed crap, etc. I find it amazing how people liken vegans/vegetarians to religious fanatics, when the evidence is abundant. In truth everyone clutching to the standard American diet is much more fanatical in nature, just believing what they've been taught and told. I am a firefighter in NYC, you can't imagine how at odds this diet is with the culture of my job. I have been told I am child abusing my kids for not letting them eat hot dogs and McDonald's, I eat rabbit food, soy is going to make me grow tits, and the list goes on. The words themselves may be exaggerated and in jest, we break each others balls all the time, but the sentiments behind them are definitely representative of what people really believe.

A imagine the response from anyone transported from pre 1940 into a modern grocery store in the US would be "WTF" is all this stuff.

stencilled on a sf mission sidewalk: “eat pussy, not cow"

Never read so much bullshit in one thread. The interesting thing here though is that basically everybody agrees that the focus should be on plant-based foods, yet you keep peddling going 100% vegetarian - or worse - vegan. Funny also that you mention athletes, esp. marathon runners. Those and triathletes usually consume colostrum regularly because it enhances their fitness (it is close to mothers milk) and boosts their immune system while it's under stress. Good dairy (e.g. raw organic milk and kefir/yoghurt and colostrum) is extremely nutritious and good for your body. It is also hogwash to claim that all researchers are biased because they get funding from industries you don't like. No wonder people compare you to religious fanatics although if I had the choice between the two I would def choose the vegans ;)

Peter P says

Anyone can draw any conclusion from anything. Expert or not.

Steve Jobs was an angry man. That got to have something to do with it.

It is amazing what stress can do to you.

Every researcher is wrong except for those you believe to be right ;)

mell says

Peter P says

Anyone can draw any conclusion from anything. Expert or not.

Steve Jobs was an angry man. That got to have something to do with it.

It is amazing what stress can do to you.

Every researcher is wrong except for those you believe to be right ;)

No, even those I like are wrong. ;-)

Underwaterman, the problem is people associate a negative connotation with the words vegan/vegetarian. This is from the wiki page on Campbell...

Campbell has followed a 99 percent vegan diet since around 1990. He does not identify himself as a vegetarian or vegan. He told an interviewer in 2007: "I never intended to seek out evidence to support vegetarianism or veganism because of any preconceived ideas or experiences. Indeed, I tend not to use the 'V' words because they often infer something other than what I espouse."

I dont know much about McDougall, but I know Esselstyn is a vegan. I have given up on trying to convince people about eating this way, either they are willfully blind to the benefits, are too lazy to learn and commit to the lifestyle, or just don't care to be healthy. It takes a rare and special person to eat this way honestly.

underwaterman says

mell says

yet you keep peddling going 100% vegetarian - or worse - vegan

This is how I know you don't know anything about diet. McDougall and Campbell are not vegan. The are whole plant starch based. I will leave it to you to understand the difference since you are so hostile.

Agreed I was more hostile than usual and I apologize for that, again, I generally commend vegetarians and vegans (esp. on the ethical and economical aspect), but I strongly disagree that a diary-free and meat-free diet is healthier and the vast evidence currently supports this. I actually do have a medical background and have done a lot of research on nutrition and it makes me agitated because there are people who can become seriously nutrient deficient by going vegan/vegetarian and you are doing them a disservice. That being said, if you know exactly what foods to eat and in what quantity and how to supplement (B12, D3 and others) if necessary, the benefits of going fully plant-based likely outweigh the disadvantages if you are coming from a traditional American meat-biased diet. However, avoiding any type of meat and/or dairy is NOT healthier according to current research (it's is simply inferior nutrition-wise to cut out a whole type of foods entirely unless you are allergic to it). Saying that the vast majority of scientist are biased puts you deep in conspiracy theory land and can make you justify anything.

Mell is much nicer to vegetarians and vegans than I am. Regardless of facts I will never agree with them. I will have my meat.

People do not spend whole careers finding out the truth. They spend whole careers proving their purported "truths."

This is where Fundamentalist Scientism becomes harmful.

Science ought to give as data points. And individuals will draw conclusions from it. It is not a way to make everybody live the same life.

underwaterman says

mell says

It is also hogwash to claim that all researchers are biased

Mel, your the one citing a paleo diet expert hiding on a supposed "scientific website" as proof that Colin Campbells research is flawed when she has no credentials (Denise Minger simply has a BA in English). When called on this, you react emotionally and call it "Bullshit" and "Hogwash".

Refute the claims based with evidence and cite your sources.

You will find that the citations of McDougall and Campbell are rock solid.

The true wackos are the people like Denise Minger hiding themselves trying

to pose as experts and unsuspecting 10 second googlers like you drive by

and push their crap.

You know as well as I do what the current consensus is and that the opinions you mentioned are in the minority - that may change over time or it may not. No need to go into a link-posting frenzy.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/can-athletes-perform-well-on-a-vegan-diet/

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/nutrition/meat.htm

There are some studies mentioned in there. Again, an 80/20 plant/meat ratio which includes dairy I consider most superior according to current research. However, it is far more important what quality the food is vs what type of food it is. Medical science is formed by consensus, not by figuring out who is the better expert - yet it can still be wrong. It is more of an art that is constantly evolving than an exact science. It is most dangerous to believe in one point and stick to it, neglecting the evolvement of science. 80% of doctors/scientist you ask today would recommend a little of "good" meat and dairy in your diet, or at least be a pescetarian.

underwaterman says

mell says

It is most dangerous to believe in one point and stick to it,

We agree on this point. It is definitely dangerous to eat a meat and dairy diet and stick to it despite strong science to the contrary.

There is a difference between a meat-based diet and a diet containing meat as in once a week a good grass-fed organic bison/beef steak or being a pescetarian. I am constantly experimenting, still continuously reducing my meat intake to very low levels (but prob never cut out fish). But I can see there's controversy around meat. What I cannot comprehend though is how anybody would argue that Kefir is not healthy. I would be interested in links or any evidence that would make you think this besides the sole fact that is belong into the dairy category. Also, while knowing that longevity is not necessarily always the same as quality of health/life, I wonder how you'd explain this list which is mostly comprised of people from countries that are pescetarian and/or have meat at least being a part of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_verified_oldest_people

underwaterman says

mell says

80% of doctors/scientist you ask today

Doctors receive about 4 credit hours in nutrition training in their entire career.

They are severely undereducated on nutrition. This is why it takes doctors like

Mcdougall and Campbell 40 years to reverse course and find out the truth through research.

That's a fair point, however I'd argue that even most functional docs and those emphasizing on nutrition currently lean that way (as well as the total of nutritional scientists).

underwaterman says

Let's look at one of your sources and analyze them:

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/nutrition/meat.htm

The main argument presented is that:

On a Vegetarian Diet There’s a 93% Chance
You’re Not Getting Enough Zinc

Don't focus on the author/opinion, what about the Burr and Sweetnam study from 1982 mentioned in this article? I see this study referenced quite a bit in scientific articles.

Lol Alan Sears is absolutely the definition of quack. Another paleo diet advocate.

underwaterman says

Wrong. Many athletes are on a plant based diet and definitely do not consume colostrum. Don't know where you got that one from.

C'mon now (I was specifically mentioning endurance athletes such as triathletes):

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2010/06/16/neovite-colostrum-helps-endurance-athletes/

You can find dozens of studies being conducted right now.

woppa says

Lol Alan Sears is absolutely the definition of quack. Another paleo diet advocate.

It's their opinion like you have yours, focus on the scientific studies mentioned in those articles:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/36/5/873.short

Quacks as well?

underwaterman says

His first aha experience was taking care of phillipinos on the hawaii plantations where the parents almost had no health problems but the kids had all kinds of health problems and he couldn't understand how this could be because they were taught in medical school most diseases are genetic.

On the short term they are genetic, but genetic expressions are influenced by nutrition and vice versa. That's why different cultures have different nutritional needs and weaknesses (such as favism, lactose or gluten intolerance etc.), based on their genetic evolution and diet throughout time.

underwaterman says

Mel, you obviously don't even read your sources and are just pulling things
randomly. I've debunked two of your so called experts that are somehow
supposed to have proved that a plant based diet is bad and meat and dairy diet is somehow good. You present biased, non-scientific people who are not researchers. McDougall cites many counter articles from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in his work.

You are making no sense, what is wrong with this study?

Peter P says

Mell is much nicer to vegetarians and vegans than I am. Regardless of facts I will never agree with them. I will have my meat.

Thanks :) I thought I was nice and open and I actually eat very little meat as stated but apparently we all deserve it ;) I may read about this guys work when I find some quiet time as I am interested. But there are so many factors going into the health equation, a big part fortunately or unfortunately genetics and environmental pollution, that I find it very problematic to imply or tell people who have severe or chronic diseases that it is all their fault and they should have just eaten "right" and/or never smoked back in the days. Kinda heartless ;)

There is nothing wrong with someone suggesting that certain diseases can be either prevented, maintained, or cured with proper diet. That is not heartless, that is being helpful as far as I am concerned. I hope you do look into the topic further, and I think you will realize there is nothing that meat offers that vegetables do not, with none of the negative effects of eating meat.

woppa says

there is nothing that meat offers that vegetables do not

Taste? Texture?

Ok so if you are okay with being unhealthy in the name of taste that is really fine, I was referring to the health aspects of veggies vs meat.

I should qualify that statement, there is no lack of taste in the vegan/vegetarian world but of course there is no vegetable that tastes like steak. I do not particularly miss it but I agree, meat tastes good, too bad it is so bad for you.

woppa says

I should qualify that statement, there is no lack of taste in the vegan/vegetarian world but of course there is no vegetable that tastes like steak. I do not particularly miss it but I agree, meat tastes good, too bad it is so bad for you.

Perhaps. But I will still eat meat even IF that trims 20 years off my life.

But I doubt that. Japanese people eat a lot of fish and they have great longevity.

Mell,

Campbell said that the data from the China study did not differentiate between low meat eating and zero meat eating. His outlook that it is probably best to cut animal products to zero is based on is own works combined with other studies. McDougall has also said that eating a little lean chicken once in a while will not hurt you, but once in a while to him is every few months. He then says that once every few months can turn into twice a week, and that can cause problems. He also recognizes also, that eating on his diet most of the time is better than nothing, and that the more you do, the more benefits you will receive. It's not all or nothing.

You are right to point out that vegan diets can be lacking, and I'm sure many vegans become deficient. The problem is that these people are eating a crappy diet. Likewise, many meat eaters can have crappy diets. They end up with all sorts of medical problems. These problems are just not blamed on the diet so much, b/c the diet is in the realm of standard fare. The common supplement recommendations for vegans are B12 (necessary), D (good idea if you don't get enough sun), flax seed or similar for omega 3s. Zinc and selenium can be on the low side, but these can be obtained through food with a little planning. Also, regarding % allowances, these are somewhat complicated due to some non-linear effects of foods. For example, if you drink a lot of milk, you will get more calcium, but suffer from more osteoporosis caused hip breaks because of the renal acid load of milk. So, if you are getting calcium from spinach, you might get less than the person who drinks a bunch of milk, but you will have less problems associated with low calcium. That is one reason why the USDA recommendation for calcium is so much higher than other gov't recs around the world.

One final thought. When someone omits animal foods, it may seem like they are omitting a huge swath of food types. In practice, though, people who eat a lot of meat, snack, and desert foods omit all sorts of grains, starches, legume, and vegetables. They don't say anything about it, but they don't eat them. When (and if) these people do give up animal products, snack, and desert foods, they often start eating a much wider variety of foods. I don't know if meat eaters or vegans eat more variety in general, but giving up animal foods doesn't preclude variety.

underwaterman, I appreciated your comments on this thread. I was surprised at how much more variety I started eating when switching over. My wife and I have always liked Indian, asian, and other world foods, and have access to a huge variety of veggies & farm coops in this area. That helps a lot. I think this trend of access to variety is increasing in smaller towns as well.
Personally, I take B12, ground flax seeds, and D3 in the winter, but have not had blood tests. It's nice to here accounts of people like you who have been doing this for 4 years. As you probably know, over on the McDougall board there are many who have had great results for 20-30 years as well.

Peter P, you might appreciate this quote. When I was a member of a veterinarian meat eating club, they had a shirt that said, 'Meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder." I think it was one way to deal with some of the logical conflict between eating animals at the table in the evening after caring for them all day.

YesYNot says

I don't know if meat eaters or vegans eat more variety in general, but giving up animal foods doesn't preclude variety.

True, but you are giving up ALL variety on the meat side, incl. fish etc. So somebody who eats the same variety of legumes/fruits etc. but still eats meat/fish once a week or so is getting a better mix of nutrients according to current data. Let's also not forget that on moderate diets it is likely more important what quality any type of food is and that it is hard to get high quality foods all year round at every occasion. And again, have varying genetic expressions, a one-type-fits-all diet is asinine IMO. Interestingly we have more and more recognized MDs coming in front of a big audience, e.g. recently 2 MDs on Dr. OZ, challenging all of our beliefs about animal fats being bad and advocating the opposite (in moderation). Most of them consider sugars and starches the culprits and there is a lot of new data that seems to be supporting this. I agree that meat should be eaten in moderation and that a lot of people eat way too much of it, but I am trying to cut out sugars more than meat right now (unless I am exercising and need some), and let me tell you, it's not easy ;) That being said, I could see myself on a vegetarian/pescetarian diet including dairy, but this is not about me and you, it's about the broader science and the question whether you can apply the same rules for everybody - so I will stay extremely skeptical of researchers advocating their diet as superior to all for everybody, be it Paleo or some sort of Vegetarian/Vegan diet - and the ever changing data and new research seems to be supporting that skepticism. History always repeats itself ;)

I love meat. I ate about 2\3 a lb of bacon with 3 eggs for breakfast this morning. I've never been healthier. Meat is very healthy as are vegetables. Fat is good for you. Fiber, not so much. Read Fiber Menace if you want to be scientifically informed on the matter

mell says

Most of them consider sugars and starches the culprits and there is a lot of new data that seems to be supporting this.

I think that Lustig is the big anti-sugar guy now. A few things regarding this. A starch (potato, rice, etc) contains glucose in polysacharide form. These also come along with fiber, and are in physical packages that are not readily disolvable in water. It also takes water to convert the polysacharide to the monosacharide glucose. These make it take longer to digest. Fruit and sugar have sucrose, which is glucose and fructose in disacharide form. Fructose and glucose metabolize differently. Glucose goes right into cells. Fructose, more so goes to the liver and gets converted to triglycerides. So, these should not be thought of in the same way. I think some of the sugar is bad folks seem to gloss over this.

mell says

I agree that meat should be eaten in moderation and that a lot of people eat way too much of it,

Moderation is unfortunately a bit meaningless. Choosing to eat moderately just means that you don't want to change much from the norm, whatever that is. The norm is very different from culture to culture and time to time. So, I disagree with the notion that we should eat moderately on the grounds that it is meaningless.

mell says

but this is not about me and you, it's about the broader science and the question whether you can apply the same rules for everybody - so I will stay extremely skeptical of researchers advocating their diet as superior to all for everybody

Two things here: 1) I agree that people are different. Some are more prone to high blood pressure and others to diabetes. People should probably make dietary refinements based on their family history. That said, advice given to people prone to or with diabetes varies. Some think you have to limit carbs and avoid big hits at all costs. Others think this is treating the symptom, and that if you drastically reduce fats, insulin resistance goes away.
2) Some people have a bad experience as a vegan and go to meat, and then bugle it to the world. It is likely that if they figured out their problem, that they would have had success as a vegan. Maybe they had an allergy or maybe they had a vitamin deficiency due to some genetics. On the other side, some omnis have issues over time, then go vegan and have success or get rid of problems. It might have been just milk, and they might have been fine eating meat and eggs.
The point is that individuals if they are lucky find some path that works for them. It doesn't mean that is the only path that would have worked for them. Because of this, I think the need for big variations person to person is overblown. I do agree though that some variations are merited.
errc says

Read Fiber Menace if you want to be scientifically informed on the matter

This guy (http://www.gutsense.org/author/author.html) may be an example of #1 & #2 above. He was taking in a lot of fruit juice and fruits and the fructose was converted to triglycerides in his liver. Maybe this was part due to his diabetic tendencies. He also had IBS, which means that he was having trouble digesting something. Instead of cutting out the fructose & going on an elimination diet to figure out what was happening, he made a huge change. This change over to a lower fiber diet worked, and that was that. It wasn't necessarily the only or best solution for him, but it solved the problem at hand. Once found, the search was over. His solution also might not be useful to someone who has no digestive issues.

underwaterman says

If you eat this for breakfast every morning, you are not healthy and will have a cholestorol problem very soon if you don't have already.

Absolutely not, there is no scientific data supporting that (what is currently considered) high cholesterol is unhealthy. The only unhealthy cholesterol is oxidized cholesterol and that of a specific size that can potentially clutter blood vessels.

http://www.spacedoc.com/cholesterol_delusion

Science is a moving target and we are just at the beginning of a long journey.