patrick.net

Why do you think they have record profits? Cauze they got theyself a gold plated credit line for screwing anyone who is not in they circle jerk.

This disgusts me to the core.

Hey now, don't knock Crony Capitalism. It's the principle upon which Amurrica was founded. It's God's chosen economic system mandated by the Bible.

How long before that turns REALLY ugly I wonder...

Ruki says

What does having record profits have to do with the continual drive for business to try and get the cheapest costs that it can?

Did you read the article? They are cramming down pay for actual productive work and displacing the "savings" to executive compensation. So it doesn't look like they're lowering costs at all. I couldn't fit that all in the link title.

Paying executives more doesn't magically make a company more profitable. But there is plenty of evidence that cramming down pay will cost more in the long run. Look at the profit per store for Costco vs. Sam's Club. Adequately compensated workers save companies big bucks in terms of retention and turnover: http://hbr.org/2006/12/the-high-cost-of-low-wages/ar/1. I can only imagine how this is effect is multiplied as the workers skills increase, such as with machinists, as in this case.

JonnyDanger says

I can only imagine how this is effect is multiplied as the workers skills increase, such as with machinists, as in this case.

Except that American corporations don't want skilled workers. They want dumbed-down obediant workers that are easier to dispose of. It's called "de-skilling." Google it.

wthrfrk80 says

They want dumbed-down obediant workers

They can hire Ruki.

I also love how the financial crisis - which was caused by bad lending practices and bank fraud - is being made into neoliberal excuses to cut wages, cut taxes, and cut middle class pre-paid benefits.

Ruki says

What does having record profits have to do with the continual drive for business to try and get the cheapest costs that it can?

That is what businesses do. No different than consumers who comparison shop between Target and WalMart and Amazon (which many do).

You make it sound like it is illogical or otherwise 'wrong'.

Ruki makes a valid point. The company will offer what it will, the workers can decide if they want to take it. If not, then they can go find work else ware. Sucks but that is how the world works.

Now if the Company may find the replacement workers suck at their jobs. Because of this quality drops and the company's reputation plummets. In the meantime all the skilled labor that made the company good has fled to greener pastures. The company's sales go down. the stock goes down and the executives parachute to safety while the company burns.

JonnyDanger says

Despite record profits Caterpillar pushes 6 year pay and pension freeze

its good to keep their jobs.. inflation isnt that it was back in the 70s. So it doesnt make sense to increase pay..

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/co?s=CAT+Competitors

thomaswong.1986 says

So it doesnt make sense to increase pay..

So, the executives will be getting pay cuts as well, right?

Ruki says

You make it sound like it is illogical or otherwise 'wrong'

It is illogical actually. As they and other companies cut pay to their workers, it will eventually lead to less demand for their products. Which will, in turn, lead to lower profits.

So, they are actually hurting their own bottom line in the future.

can i get a full res copy of your avatar??

woppa says

This disgusts me to the core.

Agreed 100%.

JonnyDanger says

Adequately compensated workers save companies big bucks in terms of retention and turnover

So we agree this is a 'win-win-lose' situation.
the skilled labor goes to greener pastures, making more money
the executives have golden parachutes....
and the stockholders get screwed... deservedly so for not properly researching the company and recognizing the blueprint... such is capitalism..

New renter says

In the meantime all the skilled labor that made the company good has fled to greener pastures. The company's sales go down. the stock goes down and the executives parachute to safety while the company burns.

why don't you tell all the facts??

Caterpillar, which has significantly raised its executives’ compensation because of its strong profits, defended its demands, saying many unionized workers were paid well above market rates.

Looks like Caterpillar was overpaying parts of the labor force. They are adjusting for this. Sucks for the workers, but that's capitalism. There's always Iran if you don't like it.

tatupu70 says

Ruki says

You make it sound like it is illogical or otherwise 'wrong'

It is illogical actually. As they and other companies cut pay to their workers, it will eventually lead to less demand for their products. Which will, in turn, lead to lower profits.

So, they are actually hurting their own bottom line in the future.

You obviously didn't....
they are adjusting the payscale to current market rates....

JonnyDanger says

Did you read the article? They are cramming down pay for actual productive work

xrpb11a says

Caterpillar, which has significantly raised its executives’ compensation because of its strong profits, defended its demands, saying many unionized workers were paid well above market rates.

Well, yeah, that's what they say. Obviously.

You don't think they are going to put out a press release saying,

"Our top executives want larger bonuses for the next 2 years so we are, therefore, going to cut the pay of the workers that actually make our products."

New renter says

The company's sales go down. the stock goes down and the executives parachute to safety while the company burns.

God Bless America.

What if they're right (Caterpillar) in terms of "future economic environment"?
Someone pointed to them using a "gold-plated credit line". When the government started handing out "shovel-ready" money to governments to rebuild our roads and bridges (apparently, ALL AT THE SAME TIME here in Wisconsin), the folks at Cat said to themselves, "HEY!!! That means they are going to buy our shovels!" and they geared up for massive production in a short time and made billions. If any of them have any sense, they also know it is a temporary boom cycle, and it will be followed by one hell of a bust, especially when combined with the demise of house building as a false economic model.
How many people discussing Caterpillar's economics have actually driven one? Cat makes its reputation on reliability and robustness. My dad's D-8's were built in the 1930's and still do the same job they were designed to do, anytime, anywhere(My 1963 Dynahoe backhoe is similarly robust). Once you fill the world with equipment like that, you can't project continued sales growth unless you invent something to replace it (and pushing computer-servo hydraulics has been a boom to Cat).
The next logical step (of 'efficiency') is to have the kind of robot machines in the "I, Robot" movie (or "Terminator"). Caterpillar is a company built on making people more useful. Our current trend, however, is to make people useless (replacing them with robots). Once you do that, you don't need the people at all. The robots can simply build robots to do the consuming and eliminate the people, who are already just robots that eat, so what's the big deal about cutting them out of the labor pool that only existed to make them feel important to each other?
sigh....

If Catapillar were lying, the union would have come up with a rebuttal.
So where is the rebuttal stating the union was not being paid above average wages??

tatupu70 says

xrpb11a says

Caterpillar, which has significantly raised its executives’ compensation because of its strong profits, defended its demands, saying many unionized workers were paid well above market rates.

Well, yeah, that's what they say. Obviously.

You don't think they are going to put out a press release saying,

"Our top executives want larger bonuses for the next 2 years so we are, therefore, going to cut the pay of the workers that actually make our products."

I am in favor of reducing pay and benefits to overpaid union thugs.

xrpb11a says

If Catapillar were lying, the union would have come up with a rebuttal.
So where is the rebuttal stating the union was not being paid above average wages??

What is average? What is above average? How did you arrive at those numbers?

The truth is it really doesn't matter.

This is the bottom line:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/caterpillar-ceos-pay-package-grows-232903922.html

Is the CEO's pay going to be reduced until it's at the average? Why is his pay tied to performance, but the guys who actually made the product isn't?

zzyzzx says

I am in favor of reducing pay and benefits to overpaid union thugs.

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

I am in favor of reducing bullies. Whether it is the management bullies or the labor union bullies. That's why our constitution was written to include a Senate. Unfortunately, the corporations bought that, too. Apparently, money trumps mobs. When mobs get money, they forget what they created the mob for.

So your answer is a non-answer.
Again, where is the rebuttal? Surely if the unions think catapillar was lying, they would have issued some sort of statement speaking to that.

tatupu70 says

xrpb11a says

If Catapillar were lying, the union would have come up with a rebuttal.

So where is the rebuttal stating the union was not being paid above average wages??

What is average? What is above average? How did you arrive at those numbers?

The truth is it really doesn't matter.

This is the bottom line:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/caterpillar-ceos-pay-package-grows-232903922.html

Is the CEO's pay going to be reduced until it's at the average? Why is his pay tied to performance, but the guys who actually made the product isn't?

xrpb11a says

So your answer is a non-answer.
Again, where is the rebuttal? Surely if the unions think catapillar was lying, they would have issued some sort of statement speaking to that.

So, your argument is that because the union didn't issue a rebuttal, it must be true? Interesting logic, there.

In any event, my answer was an answer. Who's to say that the Caterpillar workers were "average" I bet if you asked them, they'd all say they were "above average". Therefore, they deserved above average pay.

So, do you agree that the CEO's pay should be cut also?

Yes.

tatupu70 says

xrpb11a says

So your answer is a non-answer.
Again, where is the rebuttal? Surely if the unions think catapillar was lying, they would have issued some sort of statement speaking to that.

So, your argument is that because the union didn't issue a rebuttal, it must be true?

Not to my question.

tatupu70 says

In any event, my answer was an answer

xrpb11a says

Not to my question.

Sorry, I can't read the minds of the union leaders. I didn't think the question really deserved an answer because it was based on a faulty premise.

wthrfrk80 says

Except that American corporations don't want skilled workers. They want dumbed-down obediant workers that are easier to dispose of. It's called "de-skilling." Google it.

Or, you could phrase this as;"American (and other) consumers want to buy the highest quality product at the least costly price, and it is a businesses job to constantly meet this demand."

If you saddle an economy with massive tax and regulatory complexity that feeds the parasite-service provider economy, these businesses will adjust accordingly. Those with economies of scale thrive at the expense of smaller, more localized competitors who struggle to comply and lose jobs while those capable of global navigation simply offshore. Many stupid laws fast forwarded the economy to spend $$ to reduce labor overhead via tech and off-shoring...

No doubt the biggies like the highly complex laws since they knock out localized competition. They are in cahoots with the parastic PhD'd welfare crowd. (tax specialists, regulatory compliance experts, who suck blood from the real producers of wealth / better standards of living.)

HRHMedia says

saying many unionized workers were paid well above market rates"

That beats closing the factory down and moving it to Mexico.

Ruki says

If it is a bad business decision, they pay for the consequences (unless they get bailed out by Obama).

No, it's really not. It's the shareholders' money.

Ruki says

Do you own shares in that company? If so, bitch at the next board meeting.

There's the rub. One vote at a shareholder meeting is worthless. The BODs at public companies are complete shams. They exist solely to line the pockets of executives at this point.

If we had real directors that actually looked out for the company's best interest, then that would be a different story.

Leopold B Scotch says

No doubt the biggies like the highly complex laws since they knock out localized competition. They are in cahoots with the parastic PhD'd welfare crowd. (tax specialists, regulatory compliance experts, who suck blood from the real producers of wealth / better standards of living.)

A fair assessment, I think. It's amazing how much of our economy is essentially "non productive." I'd say the entire legal profession and the entire "finance" sector are parasitic.

HRHMedia says

Caterpillar says it needs to keep its labor costs down to ensure its future competitiveness."

Maybe they don't want to pull a GM / Chrysler?? E.g., they don't want to give away the farm while the sun shines only to pay for it when the rain clouds come out?

Herman Cain "If You Don't Have A Job And You Are Not Rich, Blame Yourself"

Depends. Lots of people voted for and got exactly what they were asking for (though they thought they were voting for something else!) So blame yourself if you've voted a whole life voting for anti-liberty proposals. Whatt'd you expect?

If you were a flunky through HS and blamed the man for all your problems, and never took the initiative to embrace an entrepreneurial mindset, but instead cast your lot with unionistas who treat excellence with disdain ("you're making the rest of us look bad, stick to your own job and payscale") while protecting shitstains in the workplace (worst in govt and education)... .and now you're finding yourself out on your own? Blame yourself.

If you keep defending the federal reserve cartel system and big government and you suddenly found yourself out of work with a mortgage thanks to the housing bubble the partnership between the banking cartel and government created? Your fault!

Now, I don't totally agree with herman cain, but there are nuances that make perfect sense. Sure, there are things out of everyone's control, but there's a whole hell of a lot more in all of our control than anyone cares to admit, left and right.

GO LIBERTY!

wthrfrk80 says

A fair assessment, I think. It's amazing how much of our economy is essentially "non productive." I'd say the entire legal profession and the entire "finance" sector are parasitic.

Amen! (Well, some finance is legit, all very basic intermediary stuff IMO. But finance for fiance sake? Or the banking cartel's legalized counterfeiting system? etc etc!)

Leopold B Scotch says

Maybe they don't want to pull a GM / Chrysler?? E.g., they don't want to give away the farm while the sun shines only to pay for it when the rain clouds come out?

Fair enough--but why pay their top execs so much then?? They can't have it both ways.

A lot of our problems come from organization on too-large a scale. That creates ineffciency, corruption, and opportunity to "game the system."

HRHMedia says

$13 ph is disgusting

$13/hour is way more then what they will be making if the factory moves to Mexico.

HRHMedia says

In 2010, Germany produced more than 5.5 million automobiles; the U.S produced 2.7 million. At the same time, the average auto worker in Germany made $67.14 per hour in salary in benefits; the average one in the U.S. made $33.77 per hour.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-09/gm-ford-to-accelerate-growth-at-mexico-plants-where-workers-get-26-a-day.html

GM, Ford Accelerate Shift to Mexico Workers Making $26 a Day

Why should they even pay $33.77 per hour when they can pay $26/day?

zzyzzx says

$13/hour is way more then what they will be making if the factory moves to Mexico.

$13/hour with benefits isn't great, but where I live the cost of living is low enough to make that doable.