patrick.net

Not just Communist money. Also, elites from places like Taipei, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangalore, Mumbai. Places like that.

So how do you propose to measure scholastic results?

B.A.C.A.H. says

You choose your words well, young jedi, "school achievement". Schools achieve API's.

Students achieve results. Students like East San Jose grad Jerry Yang.

Serpentor says

any recent buyers who bought in Cupertino thinking that it will buy success for their kids are just pissing their money away. They could have done just as well and saved a couple hundred grand buying in Sunnyvale, campbell or Willow Glenn

Maybe true. But , specially chinese , they are very stubborn. Once they set their mind in cupertino, there is no going back in thinking.

chip_designer says

i see, but thomas.wong is chinese name, but not you. Its just an alias, you pretend to confuse people right? :)

whats in a login name anyway ? what meaning must it have ... like vanity plates maybe !

chip_designer says

Maybe true. But , specially chinese , they are very stubborn. Once they set their mind in cupertino, there is no going back in thinking.

LOL! Asians in Cupertino isnt new. For a east coast person.. they may seem to have come off the boat. No they been around. Perhaps prices should of skyrocketed in decades past before the recent bubble we had. Why didnt that happen.. were they less stubborn then vs now ?

B.A.C.A.H. says

Serpentor says

right. because there are only choice between the ghettos and over priced fortresses. LOL

Shhh ! Do you really want them and their kids, with those values, s
pilling over out of The Fortress schools into where our kids goto?

sure, more geek kids for my kids to beat up. LOL J/K

B.A.C.A.H. says

Not just Communist money. Also, elites from places like Taipei, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangalore, Mumbai. Places like that.

When one has mega bucks.. South Bay seems not so attractive for any elites international or domestic. If it was ever attractive one would have expected all the glamor hollywood types to have moved here over the decades just to be next to Cupertino school.. but as you see not even the Hollywood types make a home in SF Bay Area...

Brangelina running around Palo Alto ? not going to happen.

demming taught the japanese car makers how to measure and improve their manufacturing and make no mistake the japanese built upon that to a perfectionist artform.
Any system is flawed, but does that mean it is useless?

wthrfrk80 says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Because you are making the confusion API = "good schools". No. API = "good test takers", or maybe even "good teaching to the test".

Pretty much. Almost any system can be "gamed."

B.A.C.A.H. says

Not just Communist money. Also, elites from places like Taipei, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangalore, Mumbai. Places like that.

absolutely absurd. For a million dollars, the "Elites" can pay for tuition to the top private schools in the US many times over.

Trinity School: Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline: 41% Location: New York, N.Y.
Horace Mann:Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline: 36% Location: Bronx, N.Y.
Phillips Academy Andover: Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline: 33% Location: Andover, Mass.
The Brearley School:Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline: 37% Location: New York, N.Y.

top public schools:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-rankings
where's Cupertino?

California:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/california/rankings
Gasp! Monta Vista is ranked all the way down to #17! for CA and #97 for US!

and Cupertino High is all the way down in the #97 for CA and #496 for US

Asian dad says Number one school or GTFO!

That is easily one of my favorite meme image macros.

Serpentor says

top public schools:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-rankings
where's Cupertino?
California:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/california/rankings
Gasp! Monta Vista is ranked all the way down to #17! for CA and #97 for US!
and Cupertino High is all the way down in the #97 for CA and #496 for US

Serpenter, you are using an academic performance index/ranking to illustrate how foolish it is for others to use an academic performance index (test scores) as a (one of many btw) house purchase decision metrics.
ie. cupertino is not ranked that high on USnews.
Do you chase your tail much?
The folks that have unlimited resources to move anywhere in the country to get into the very best (your criteria) hs probably don’t know where Cupertino is. Get real.
"Asian dad says Number one school or GTFO"-straw man.

E-man says

Serpentor,

How many times have you complained about this topic in recent years? LOL! People vote with their pocket book, and they have spoken. Let it be. I don't disagree with your points. But as usual, I'd have to side with kt1652 and SFace. :)

Learn from your victory. Prosper from your failure.

yep. People voted with their pocketbooks with Zynga stock back in the day too. This is a housing bubble forum is it not? what else are we going to talk about? how cheap Stockton home prices are? no shit. LOL

I keep bringing this topic up because its amusing to me, especially how people think somehow Crapertino is the center of the universe.

kt1652 says

Serpenter, you are using an academic performance index/ranking to illustrate how foolish it is for others to use an academic performance index (test scores) as a (one of many btw) house purchase decision metrics.
ie. cupertino is not ranked that high on USnews.
Do you chase your tail much?
The folks that have unlimited resources to move anywhere in the country to get into the very best (your criteria) hs probably don’t know where Cupertino is. Get real.
"Asian dad says Number one school or GTFO"-straw man.

Nope, my point is its foolish to think Crapertino is the center of the universe and its foolish to believe that somehow all the worlds elite strive go to Cupertino because of its schools. I've shown that there are there are plenty of schools that are far better, private and public. If an international "elite" want the best edumacation for their kids. Cupertino is not even on their radar. While the local asian family (and some of you here) think its worth it to piss away their money to have the kids get into an asian style pressure cooker school.
Go back to school and learn to read English. LOL

Ok I used your source which I guess is better. It seems reasonable to say compare only CA schools for obvious reasons. #1 Oxford Cypress Academy. Anaheim.

http://www.greatschools.org/cgi-bin/ca/other/3612#toc

Serpentor says

While the local asian family (and some of you here) think its worth it to piss away their money to have the kids get into an asian style pressure cooker school.

"-Go back to school and learn to read English." - ad hominem

"•U.S. students recently finished 25th in math and 17th in science in the ranking of 31 countries by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."

S - I've wasted too much time with you already. If you think your opinion matter to me one bit, you've overestimated.
Compare buying Zynga to buying RE, why not buying weed?

http://www.nationalmathandscience.org/solutions/challenges/staying-competitive

SFAce, how many kids are you planning to send to HS? Bellarmine is like $16k/year, Notre Dame is a bit less. I think that Mitty & Saint Francis are about the same. You could potentially buy in San Jose's Cambrian neighborhood for a lot less than the public schools you mention and get a better education with the difference (and still have money left over even if you have 2 kids).

SFace says

So Serp, if not Cupertino, then where? I would love to hear your opinion and reasons.

I've already mentioned this. I don't value API's all that much. As long as its not the ghetto, my kids will do fine. (I plan on riding my kid's asses to achieve in school and sports, I don't need to pay overpay someone to do that for me) My SO went to HS in Santa Clara and she turned out just fine, got in to a prestigious University and have a great career despite having to learn English in her teens. I'd rather have my kids be at the top of the class, be the best in sports, and be prez of the xyz club at a mediocre school then trying to compete with a bunch of geek Asian kids at Monta Vista.

When I look at successful people in real life going to a top High school just doesn't matter all that much.

SFace says

I have two boys. As per my prior communication, I only consider permanent costs as true costs.

Permanent costs: Tuition fees net of tax vs. increment (from the price)of property tax and interest net of tax deduction. The permanent costs from private school will be way more expensive than paying the extra interest and property tax.

Sorry, I guess I am not following you there.

Say 2 boys x 4 years at Bellarmine x $16k/year = $128k - This is ignoring discounts if they are enrolled simultaneously and their large, generous endowment fund that provides tuition assistance to a lot of kids there.

It looks like you can get a decent 3/2 in Cambrian for $600k. The areas with "good schools" seem to start at $800k. There's $40k in cash for the larger down payment (20%), plus the additional insurance, taxes and mortgage cost. Yeah, you can recoup some of that by selling later since those areas will probably hold their value, but you are still out 6% of at least $800k ($48k+). Say you hang out there for 15 years until school stuff is done. 1.25% property tax on the $200k difference x 15 years is another $37k. So right there, you have $125k in money down the drain. I guess you can argue that your tax, in either house, is a "tuition payment", and if the house were to appreciate a lot in the next 15 years it could be worth it. Otherwise, it is looks like a total wash. If the house appreciates with inflation, which is the historical norm, then you may come out a little ahead. Still, I think that the quality of education and the environment at a private school is going to be worth it if you are concerned enough about your kids' education that you are considering botique neighborhoods. Or, you can buy somewhere "normal" and send them to schools there, kick their asses to do their homework and stay out of trouble and raise nice responsible adults at a fraction of the cost.

Aside / Hocking:
I went there back when it was more like $6k a year (finished there in 2002), and it sure has gone a little nutty with the tuition since then, I will agree. Still, private schools can enforce a lot more discipline than public ones (trust me on that one, there's zero tolerance for drugs, violence, and hate speech). A big thing that I liked, looking back anyway, was that they instill a strong sense of social justice since that's the Jesuits' "thing." They don't force religion on anyone, and in fact made me agnostic despite being raised Catholic & put through parochial school...they encourage critical thought and to question everything before choosing to believe in it (especially religion). You have to learn about the history of various religions, but that's it. There were Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Atheists, (you name it) here. They have a 99% matriculation rate, and 90%+ get accepted to the school of their choice. There's an entire (required) course senior year that focuses on college admissions and faculty go over each student's application letters and such. Maybe you get that in Cupertino & PA high schools I don't know, or people there pay extra for private college guidance...which is an added cost.

you forgot to put in the 6% Realtor extortion fee on the price difference

SFace says

BMW,

I have a simple model.

The increment from a 1M to 600K house is 400K. The first 600K will be there regardless or private schools, the increment is buying the school premium in lieu of private schools

The increments are the 4% interest rate and 1.3% property tax or 5.3% @ 33% net of tax deduction or 3.55%

400K @ 3.44% = $13,760 a year.

$13,760. That's the permanent differnece between a 1M home and a 600K home. All the other costs are essentially the same and the house price is a pass-through. For one kid, I would definitely pay for private schools, with two kids, a good school district are tremendous value. The private school better add enough value to make the price tag worthwhile.

At private schools, that is 16K per kid after tax. The better schools like SI, etc. are 30K. private school rates go up around 5% a year.

Fair enough. There is no single "right" answer so you'll obviously do what works for you (since you have obviously given this plenty of thought).

Is private school worth it? That depends...I can't see any justification for dropping $30k at Harker or something since that would most likely turn my kid into a douchebag, but some people are very wealthy and want to make sure that their kids grow up in, and are well connected, in that world. As far as the "lesser" private joints go, like Ballarmine or Mitty, I think that it was worth it at the time (it still amazes me that tuition almost tripled in 10 years). I think I was one of the "less motivated" kids there, although luckily for me I have a high aptitude for learning which sort of countered that. I spent a LOT of time wrenching on my car and working part-time jobs in retail after school to pay for it. Frankly, had I gone somewhere that didn't have a college guidance course & counselors, I am not sure if I would have gone to a 4 year university and gotten a mechanical engineering degree (found the motivation in college lol).

My parents rode my ass to get B's or better, but they weren't forcing me into SAT prep courses or anything (got around 1250 on it, took it once, no prep class) and I left HS with a 3.4GPA. Being an Eagle Scout basically got me admission to the schools I applied to, and THAT I couldn't have done without my parents kicking my ass. So, the thing that the private school gave me was individual, personal attention from faculty. At that stage of my life I needed it since my interests were centered on cars, camping and girls (although I was pretty unsuccessful at that lol). If your kids are of the more self-motivated / "ambitious" variety, they may well be fine in a public joint. My younger sister was "highly motivated" and a 4.0 kid, she went to Notre Dame and is now part way through her Chemistry PhD at UCSC. My parents decided to put is in private school after seeing the difference between public (where I started out elementary school) and private (where some of my cousins were going). They gave up a LOT to do it, drove old used Fords, no cable TV, rarely ate out and I couldn't thank them more for it now.

Anyway sorry about the long diatribe. I just wanted to share my experience as a "product of the system" and to hopefully show that not all kids that come out of private schools are snobby douchebag coke-addicts. Yeah yeah, the user name I know...it's a f'ing 1991 318 that I paid $2k for in 2005 lol...high roller! (we won't get into how much I have spent on it since then though...)

Serpentor says

Nope, my point is its foolish to think Crapertino is the center of the universe and its foolish to believe that somehow all the worlds elite strive go to Cupertino because of its schools.

Certain parties require ANY justification no matter how crazy it may be (clicks per page) to justify the high prices. Thats what we have come down to around here.

thomas.wong1986 says

Serpentor says

Nope, my point is its foolish to think Crapertino is the center of the universe and its foolish to believe that somehow all the worlds elite strive go to Cupertino because of its schools.

Certain parties require ANY justification no matter how crazy it may be (clicks per page) to justify the high prices. Thats what we have come down to around here.

Tiger mother is a bonafide terrorist.

SFace says

I do value API, especially at the HS level. It is the only quantifiable nchmark to compare one school with another.

Of course you do, because it is Cool and Hipper and Waaaay more Sophisticated to be a quant and fit the whole world into an equation.

It's also easier to do that than to get boots on the ground and learn about what really happens in the classrooms and schoolyards.

Hello, instead of all this bickering about high schools, if your kids are so hell bent on getting straight A's and scoring a perfect MCAT/LSAT/GRE/GMAT for professional schools, how about simply doing homeschooling ... get a GED, and take college classes, as continuing ed students, and then transferring those credits later, as a junior into another college?

On the east coast, here's Harvard's night program in Cambridge MA

http://www.extension.harvard.edu

And Univ of Penn in Philly PA ...

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps

The above programs also offer bachelors and masters degree, if transferring into a traditional class isn't important. Harvard's extension program is the cheapest and is the only program in MA, nearest to the state college tuition rate.

Good students from the above programs can also get into places like Johns Hopkins Medical School or the Univ of Chicago Law School, since I figured most of the parents posting here are mostly concerned about grad program placement.

Worse then going to a geek school. All you get from home schooling are socially awkward kids thats great at the stuff you teach them. They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills. How do they deal with bullies? Lead the soccer team to victory? Talk to girls? Go to the prom? Carry on a normal conversation with someone their own age?

Serpentor says

They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills. How do they deal with bullies? Lead the soccer team to victory? Talk to girls? Go to the prom?

As you know, this whole topic is about the competitive parents who all want their kids to attend medical or top 20 law schools. The best way to do this is to save the money for those programs than in feeding private prep schools and undergrad residential programs.

And I think you know a couple of things ... adults sue each other. The schoolyard bully, after the age of 18, faces assault/battery charges. Thus, the best a bully can hope for is to be an A-hole at work as oppose to a thug on the streets. As for soccer & such, there's the Boys/Girls scouts and they can meet kids from all different townships, not just the primary neighborhood. After seeing the issues w/ teen pregnancy and then, sexual harassment suits in the workplace, I'm not sure that 'talking to girls' is all that necessary; talking to adults, at a place like Harvard Extension, may be safer. Chances are that they'll already be married.

And finally, here's the real way to have fun. After one's gotten those credits for such & such undergrad program, do a one year program at Univ of London & pick one of the easier programs. Then, for that year ... go to the West End pubs, with your mates, and drink to your heart's content. All the actual studying for exams happens in the final weeks at London Univ.

Serpentor says

They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills.

I believe that after K-through-6, the kids have learned everything they need to know. The Jr high to high school, esp for these phony suburban cul de-sac communities, doesn't add anymore to their overall experiences. Semi-rural communities, however, are a different story.

I already know of a few parents, who took their kids out of the system after this point. None of them are screwed up and they seem to be well balanced and ready to either start college or an apprenticeship, if they go the trade way.

Rin,

Are you a parent?

If you are, please tell us your parenting experiences on this matter, what worked, what didn't, what you did that you would recommend to other parents, what you would recommend NOT to do, what you would've done different, etc.

Serpentor says

Worse then going to a geek school. All you get from home schooling are socially awkward kids thats great at the stuff you teach them. They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills. How do they deal with bullies? Lead the soccer team to victory? Talk to girls? Go to the prom? Carry on a normal conversation with someone their own age?

I have a friend who homeschooled the kids partly because the modern curriculum at the schools taught evolution, did not read from the bible, etc. He was telling me about it when I visited him several years ago. Apparently in that community, there were at the time a critical mass of families like that who arrange "activities" together.

Bay Area Tiger Child

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/15/lisa-chan-pete-hoekstra-apologizes_n_1280271.html

"As a recent college grad who has spent time working to improve communities and empower those without a voice, this role is not in any way representative of who I am. It was absolutely a mistake on my part and one that, over time, I hope can be forgiven. I feel horrible about my participation and I am determined to resolve my actions."

Rin says

Serpentor says

They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills.

I believe that after K-through-6, the kids have learned everything they need to know. The Jr high to high school, esp for these phony suburban cul de-sac communities, doesn't add anymore to their overall experiences. Semi-rural communities, however, are a different story.

I already know of a few parents, who took their kids out of the system after this point. None of them are screwed up and they seem to be well balanced and ready to either start college or an apprenticeship, if they go the trade way.

That is the WORST time to take your kids out of school. You are depriving your kids out of some of the most enriching experiences of their lives. Some of the longest lasting friendships start out in HS. Sure they will do "fine" in life... but they will be weirdos. Real competitive sports don't happen until HS, social interactions get more complex, class activities, social functions, etc etc.

Do you really think they'll already know how to deal with members of the opposite sex by Jr High? They'll be in a rude awakening by the time the go off to college

I don't know about your kids, but I'ms sure most kids would not want to be separated from their friends and be hanging out with their parents all day in their teenage years.

And how many couples can afford to stay home and not work living in the Bay Area?

Serpentor says

Some of the longest lasting friendships start out in HS.

My longest lasting friendships were from high schools, outside of the snob town which my parents moved into (believing all the half-truths which folks here on this board are spewing) when I was 10-11. And the majority of them were from college, and many of those folks were from more rural a/o semi-rural communities.

Do you really think they'll already know how to deal with members of the opposite sex by Jr high?

I did quite well with the opposite gender, when they weren't interested in how my parents *compared* to theirs. Thus, once again, I did well with other community/region GFs. I knew a number of 'girls' (early childhood, you know ... 4 squares, biking, playing pranks, house, etc) before I moved into the snob town and then, once I started getting out, circa age 15, in other regions, once again, not related to my particular high school per se. I was involved in martial arts, music, and I'd worked in places where I interacted with kids from other towns nearby.

Thus, I don't place value on high school, itself. It's too insular of an environment and folks there were extremely judgmental of one another due to socioeconomic factors & keeping up with the Jones, Chans, Rosenthals, Patels, & Y'mosians (I think that covers a majority of the nouveau riche ethnic enclaves there).

And how many couples can afford to stay home and not work living in the Bay Area?

No argument there.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Rin,

Are you a parent?

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm only an uncle. My niece, however, has decided to stick to her high school. Here's why ... she's active in the drama club and thus, has an area of passion. She's not in high school, just to pass time for college, like many others. She's highly focused and is able to juggle her time between extracurriculars and school work. Her mom, my sister, is stay-at-home, and works with her quite a bit on her stuff. They don't live in a snob community.

My friends/relatives, who're homeschooling, are doing it because their kids were not challenged by junior HS or freshman yr HS and these are kids, who'll most likely be either in an apprenticeship (electrician, machinist) or professional school (pharmacy, medicine, law), down the road. For them, they were not inspired by the activities found in the school system, unlike my niece, who'd found her niche there.

So while I can't vouch for everyone, I think given the way parents (who spend a fortune to live in XYZ community) think, I'm not sure if following the piped piper path of the elite townships is best for one's child to be a self-actualized adult. I find these kids who play on the 'Save Darfur' and other pseudo-social consciousness themes to be hokey and basically resume padders. This was also apparent in the whole school paper editorship competition, which once again, also appears to be a collection of phonies. And in terms of sports, really, how many captains of intramural LaCrosse do we really need?

SFace says

Sounds like a plan, but how the heck do you get from point A to point C realisticly. Homeschooling a teenager in a social world?

For now, it's all work in motion. The current plan, which my friend (former college classmate/workmate) and I are doing, is finding what his daughter loves to do. So far, it looks like sailing, martial arts, and playing an instrument are in her list of things. Let's see how this turns out during the following year.

Then, once an activity or series of such are identified, then to do them, outside of the walls of the town's junior high or high school. This is the key piece; if your kids can associate with others, of like mind/interests, in your metropolitan area (not just your town), then you have a situation where the *need to belong* is removed from having to belong to XYZ HS and then, comparing themselves to others there. This is the way to break peer pressure, otherwise, like I see in a lot of kids, they get withdrawn and then you get all that awful stuff on facebook school pages.

Realize this ... the courses at Harvard Extension are at night. Each class is dense and covers a week's worth of material. If your kids don't have an interest, during the day, it won't work out. The idea is that homeschooling should liberate one's time and energy, from the monotony of high school politicking, while providing opportunities to accumulate college credits and recommendation letters for a future vocation and/or professional school placement.

SFAce, I grew up in, and only ever lived in, Santa Clara County, went to the public K-12's here. Not inside The Fortress though.

Early in what became my career as an engineer, I was a teaching major at San Jose St. I was able to flex my work schedule as an engineer in those days (before being a parent) enough to do this.

Because I was working full time, I was a teaching major for three years in a program that most students finish in one year. I did student teaching at high schools and middle schools in various places around the county, in different demographics, including the coveted Cupertino area of The Fortress. In those three years I got to know many kids and many educators from all over the "valley". After that, worked as a substitute teacher in the county from time to time during PTO from the engineering job.

When the time came, I was an officer in PTA at my kids' school elementary school for about a decade. I chaperoned many, probably dozens (lost count a log time ago) of field trips for all grades K-6. I am still involved though not in PTA, at my youngest's high school, and I still go back to volunteer at the elementary school during their science fair most years.

This is how I know, first hand as a local kid student, a student teacher then substitute teacher in the county, as a volunteer and as a parent, and not from being a Quant (and fitting humans into "quanting"), enough to call B*llsh*t on "API"-ism".

The "API-ism" is outsourcing parenting responsibilities to a standardized test score that was intended for the state to identify where to focus and shift its resources. It (API) was never intended for Realtor®s and Quants to Gin Up people on where to over pay for housing nor for Tiger Mom to Keep Her Face in the Pecking Order of her Social Circle. It was never intended for those things; but inside the minds of certain groups, that's what the API has become.

Welcome to what has become of SIlicon Valley.

Rin says

I think given the way parents (who spend a fortune to live in XYZ community) think, I'm not sure if following the piped piper path of the elite townships is best for one's child to be a self-actualized adult. I find these kids who play on the 'Save Darfur' and other pseudo-social consciousness themes to be hokey and basically resume padders. This was also apparent in the whole school paper editorship competition, which once again, also appears to be a collection of phonies. And in terms of sports, really, how many captains of intramural LaCrosse do we really need?

Yep.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Bay Area Tiger Child

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/15/lisa-chan-pete-hoekstra-apologizes_n_1280271.html

"As a recent college grad who has spent time working to improve communities and empower those without a voice, this role is not in any way representative of who I am. It was absolutely a mistake on my part and one that, over time, I hope can be forgiven. I feel horrible about my participation and I am determined to resolve my actions."

Serpentor says

Real competitive sports don't happen until HS

If you know that your kids are NCAA material, then it's pretty obvious that you need to send them to a division 1 sports program, to maximize their chances for recruitment.

For the rest of us, however, many of us will be playing b-ball at the YMCA so why not just get your kids over there, to start with.

B.A.C.A.H. says

It (API) was never intended for Realtor®s and Quants to Gin Up people on where to over pay for housing nor for Tiger Mom to Keep Her Face in the Pecking Order of her Social Circle.

Love it... you should emphasize the "HER" social circle...

BACAH - you have a confirmation bias.

Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/IN7o2Iy89WQ

Rin says

Serpentor says

Real competitive sports don't happen until HS

If you know that your kids are NCAA material, then it's pretty obvious that you need to send them to a division 1 sports program, to maximize their chances for recruitment.

For the rest of us, however, many of us will be playing b-ball at the YMCA so why not just get your kids over there, to start with.

you are missing the whole point of doing sports.