patrick.net

chip_designer says

Serpentor says

herd mentality. Sheep. baaahhh. actually more like lemmings "all my friends are doing it, I guess I should too"

yes, we all know that, it is human nature. Just look at the iphone phenomenon.

don't you have one too?

nope. Android for me. Iphones are nice, but I really love my android phone (widgets, Built in Navigation, Flash, Bigger screen, 4G internet, inexpensive removable batteries & MicroSD cards)

chip_designer says

thomas.wong1986 says

schools are part of that hype..

see this story just came out today, you don't have to read the whole thing, the title says it all:

http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_20840660/east-san-jose-parents-assail-intolerable-middle-schools

so if you are a parent who can afford things, then you will know why cupertino houses are prized.

right. because there are only choice between the ghettos and over priced fortresses. LOL

with all the emphasis on their kids learning math and science. It really shows that the parents are the ones that need to learn math. LOL

Serpentor says

right. because there are only choice between the ghettos and over priced fortresses. LOL

Shhh ! Do you really want them and their kids, with those values, spilling over out of The Fortress schools into where our kids goto?

Call it Crazy says

kt1652 says

I would even go as far as to state that much of the usa’s dysfunctionality is due to her people’s failure to master simple math and lack of knowledge of scientific methods to problem solving. Of course, we in patnet are not like that, it is the other 95% behind the tree that are the problem.

And over paying for a house in a "good" school district will change that??

How do you know this is too much house payment for these folks?
Because they don’t have golf club memberships, expensive cars, jet set vacations?
What if they are happy to live within a comfortable commute for their jobs or businesses and good schools are very important to them?

Maybe some of them just have more money than you realize because they don’t spend it on frivolous ways. Some of them have parents that lived self imposed life of frugality and they actually have money set aside to help their children. It is not suffering for them, sacrifice yes, but worthwhile in their value system.
But like I said, if people are so stupid and way overpaid, assuming these are not the old timers that bought in 1982. They will suffer financially.
Lets go back to 1982, when my class mate bought a house in SJ for 210K. It was really really expensive then too and BTW his parents funded his downpayment.

As far as how living in a good schools helps advance math and science skills.
I know for a fact, in statistical terms, going to a low achievement school will lower thier test scores in a significant sample size if all other factors are unchanged.
Lets not be so simple minded to think this one swatch of SV can be representative of the entire usa. How the general society behaves is way too complex and beyond a paragraph but I will tell you it is probably represented by a bell curve. There will be outliers on the tails who will be considered abnormal. It could be these school score buyers are on the extreme end, trying their very best to give their children the best odds possible within their influence. Now if the entire usa society were compelled to achieve magnitude order of educational achievement, lets say in math and science, then the entire bell curve would shift. But in order for that to happen, there has to be a way to measure progress. How do you do measure it?

kt1652 says

good schools

Because you are making the confusion API = "good schools". No. API = "good test takers", or maybe even "good teaching to the test".

B.A.C.A.H. says

Because you are making the confusion API = "good schools". No. API = "good test takers", or maybe even "good teaching to the test".

Pretty much. Almost any system can be "gamed."

Serpentor says

with all the emphasis on their kids learning math and science. It really shows that the parents are the ones that need to learn math. LOL

I wonder why every flicking car dealer I ever went to ask me "How much payment can you afford each month?"
My wife who has a ms in computer was also hounded relentessly on how much car can she afford each month?
She told me, "I just want them to tell me how much is the car going cost but they just kept pushing for the monthly payment."

Do you know why they do that?
Because it works, people just end up buying on monthly payments. Seems to me this is representative of the general ignorance of simple, compounding math issue.

Math and science give you understanding of trends and rate of change and a whole bunch of other things like noise and probability. If you don't see how these skills would help us flush out charlatans politicians that promise us solutions that are not mathematically viable.
Remember, it is easy to solve a small problem early if you know it will compound into a huge future time bomb.
Do we have any problems like that?

So enlighten me on how you would measure school achievement.

B.A.C.A.H. says

kt1652 says

good schools

Because you are making the confusion API = "good schools". No. API = "good test takers", or maybe even "good teaching to the test".

You choose your words well, young jedi, "school achievement". Schools achieve API's.

Students achieve results. Students like East San Jose grad Jerry Yang.

kt1652 says

How do you know this is too much house payment for these folks?
Because they don’t have golf club memberships, expensive cars, jet set vacations?
What if they are happy to live within a comfortable commute for their jobs or businesses and good schools are very important to them?

Maybe some of them just have more money than you realize because they don’t spend it on frivolous ways. Some of them have parents that lived self imposed life of frugality and they actually have money set aside to help their children. It is not suffering for them, sacrifice yes, but worthwhile in their value system.
But like I said, if people are so stupid and way overpaid, assuming these are not the old timers that bought in 1982. They will suffer financially.
Lets go back to 1982, when my class mate bought a house in SJ for 210K. It was really really expensive then too and BTW his parents funded his downpayment

I don't doubt many fortress residents have money. In fact, I've been saying that that exact same thing (long time immigrants residents that saved and worked hard are sitting pretty with low property tax) versus the urban legend of the mystical commie Chinese money. However, any recent buyers who bought in Cupertino thinking that it will buy success for their kids are just pissing their money away. They could have done just as well and saved a couple hundred grand buying in Sunnyvale, campbell or Willow Glenn

Not just Communist money. Also, elites from places like Taipei, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangalore, Mumbai. Places like that.

So how do you propose to measure scholastic results?

B.A.C.A.H. says

You choose your words well, young jedi, "school achievement". Schools achieve API's.

Students achieve results. Students like East San Jose grad Jerry Yang.

Serpentor says

any recent buyers who bought in Cupertino thinking that it will buy success for their kids are just pissing their money away. They could have done just as well and saved a couple hundred grand buying in Sunnyvale, campbell or Willow Glenn

Maybe true. But , specially chinese , they are very stubborn. Once they set their mind in cupertino, there is no going back in thinking.

chip_designer says

i see, but thomas.wong is chinese name, but not you. Its just an alias, you pretend to confuse people right? :)

whats in a login name anyway ? what meaning must it have ... like vanity plates maybe !

chip_designer says

Maybe true. But , specially chinese , they are very stubborn. Once they set their mind in cupertino, there is no going back in thinking.

LOL! Asians in Cupertino isnt new. For a east coast person.. they may seem to have come off the boat. No they been around. Perhaps prices should of skyrocketed in decades past before the recent bubble we had. Why didnt that happen.. were they less stubborn then vs now ?

B.A.C.A.H. says

Serpentor says

right. because there are only choice between the ghettos and over priced fortresses. LOL

Shhh ! Do you really want them and their kids, with those values, s
pilling over out of The Fortress schools into where our kids goto?

sure, more geek kids for my kids to beat up. LOL J/K

B.A.C.A.H. says

Not just Communist money. Also, elites from places like Taipei, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangalore, Mumbai. Places like that.

When one has mega bucks.. South Bay seems not so attractive for any elites international or domestic. If it was ever attractive one would have expected all the glamor hollywood types to have moved here over the decades just to be next to Cupertino school.. but as you see not even the Hollywood types make a home in SF Bay Area...

Brangelina running around Palo Alto ? not going to happen.

demming taught the japanese car makers how to measure and improve their manufacturing and make no mistake the japanese built upon that to a perfectionist artform.
Any system is flawed, but does that mean it is useless?

wthrfrk80 says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Because you are making the confusion API = "good schools". No. API = "good test takers", or maybe even "good teaching to the test".

Pretty much. Almost any system can be "gamed."

B.A.C.A.H. says

Not just Communist money. Also, elites from places like Taipei, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangalore, Mumbai. Places like that.

absolutely absurd. For a million dollars, the "Elites" can pay for tuition to the top private schools in the US many times over.

Trinity School: Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline: 41% Location: New York, N.Y.
Horace Mann:Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline: 36% Location: Bronx, N.Y.
Phillips Academy Andover: Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline: 33% Location: Andover, Mass.
The Brearley School:Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline: 37% Location: New York, N.Y.

top public schools:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-rankings
where's Cupertino?

California:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/california/rankings
Gasp! Monta Vista is ranked all the way down to #17! for CA and #97 for US!

and Cupertino High is all the way down in the #97 for CA and #496 for US

Asian dad says Number one school or GTFO!

That is easily one of my favorite meme image macros.

Serpentor says

top public schools:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-rankings
where's Cupertino?
California:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/california/rankings
Gasp! Monta Vista is ranked all the way down to #17! for CA and #97 for US!
and Cupertino High is all the way down in the #97 for CA and #496 for US

Serpenter, you are using an academic performance index/ranking to illustrate how foolish it is for others to use an academic performance index (test scores) as a (one of many btw) house purchase decision metrics.
ie. cupertino is not ranked that high on USnews.
Do you chase your tail much?
The folks that have unlimited resources to move anywhere in the country to get into the very best (your criteria) hs probably don’t know where Cupertino is. Get real.
"Asian dad says Number one school or GTFO"-straw man.

E-man says

Serpentor,

How many times have you complained about this topic in recent years? LOL! People vote with their pocket book, and they have spoken. Let it be. I don't disagree with your points. But as usual, I'd have to side with kt1652 and SFace. :)

Learn from your victory. Prosper from your failure.

yep. People voted with their pocketbooks with Zynga stock back in the day too. This is a housing bubble forum is it not? what else are we going to talk about? how cheap Stockton home prices are? no shit. LOL

I keep bringing this topic up because its amusing to me, especially how people think somehow Crapertino is the center of the universe.

kt1652 says

Serpenter, you are using an academic performance index/ranking to illustrate how foolish it is for others to use an academic performance index (test scores) as a (one of many btw) house purchase decision metrics.
ie. cupertino is not ranked that high on USnews.
Do you chase your tail much?
The folks that have unlimited resources to move anywhere in the country to get into the very best (your criteria) hs probably don’t know where Cupertino is. Get real.
"Asian dad says Number one school or GTFO"-straw man.

Nope, my point is its foolish to think Crapertino is the center of the universe and its foolish to believe that somehow all the worlds elite strive go to Cupertino because of its schools. I've shown that there are there are plenty of schools that are far better, private and public. If an international "elite" want the best edumacation for their kids. Cupertino is not even on their radar. While the local asian family (and some of you here) think its worth it to piss away their money to have the kids get into an asian style pressure cooker school.
Go back to school and learn to read English. LOL

Ok I used your source which I guess is better. It seems reasonable to say compare only CA schools for obvious reasons. #1 Oxford Cypress Academy. Anaheim.

http://www.greatschools.org/cgi-bin/ca/other/3612#toc

Serpentor says

While the local asian family (and some of you here) think its worth it to piss away their money to have the kids get into an asian style pressure cooker school.

"-Go back to school and learn to read English." - ad hominem

"•U.S. students recently finished 25th in math and 17th in science in the ranking of 31 countries by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."

S - I've wasted too much time with you already. If you think your opinion matter to me one bit, you've overestimated.
Compare buying Zynga to buying RE, why not buying weed?

http://www.nationalmathandscience.org/solutions/challenges/staying-competitive

SFAce, how many kids are you planning to send to HS? Bellarmine is like $16k/year, Notre Dame is a bit less. I think that Mitty & Saint Francis are about the same. You could potentially buy in San Jose's Cambrian neighborhood for a lot less than the public schools you mention and get a better education with the difference (and still have money left over even if you have 2 kids).

SFace says

So Serp, if not Cupertino, then where? I would love to hear your opinion and reasons.

I've already mentioned this. I don't value API's all that much. As long as its not the ghetto, my kids will do fine. (I plan on riding my kid's asses to achieve in school and sports, I don't need to pay overpay someone to do that for me) My SO went to HS in Santa Clara and she turned out just fine, got in to a prestigious University and have a great career despite having to learn English in her teens. I'd rather have my kids be at the top of the class, be the best in sports, and be prez of the xyz club at a mediocre school then trying to compete with a bunch of geek Asian kids at Monta Vista.

When I look at successful people in real life going to a top High school just doesn't matter all that much.

SFace says

I have two boys. As per my prior communication, I only consider permanent costs as true costs.

Permanent costs: Tuition fees net of tax vs. increment (from the price)of property tax and interest net of tax deduction. The permanent costs from private school will be way more expensive than paying the extra interest and property tax.

Sorry, I guess I am not following you there.

Say 2 boys x 4 years at Bellarmine x $16k/year = $128k - This is ignoring discounts if they are enrolled simultaneously and their large, generous endowment fund that provides tuition assistance to a lot of kids there.

It looks like you can get a decent 3/2 in Cambrian for $600k. The areas with "good schools" seem to start at $800k. There's $40k in cash for the larger down payment (20%), plus the additional insurance, taxes and mortgage cost. Yeah, you can recoup some of that by selling later since those areas will probably hold their value, but you are still out 6% of at least $800k ($48k+). Say you hang out there for 15 years until school stuff is done. 1.25% property tax on the $200k difference x 15 years is another $37k. So right there, you have $125k in money down the drain. I guess you can argue that your tax, in either house, is a "tuition payment", and if the house were to appreciate a lot in the next 15 years it could be worth it. Otherwise, it is looks like a total wash. If the house appreciates with inflation, which is the historical norm, then you may come out a little ahead. Still, I think that the quality of education and the environment at a private school is going to be worth it if you are concerned enough about your kids' education that you are considering botique neighborhoods. Or, you can buy somewhere "normal" and send them to schools there, kick their asses to do their homework and stay out of trouble and raise nice responsible adults at a fraction of the cost.

Aside / Hocking:
I went there back when it was more like $6k a year (finished there in 2002), and it sure has gone a little nutty with the tuition since then, I will agree. Still, private schools can enforce a lot more discipline than public ones (trust me on that one, there's zero tolerance for drugs, violence, and hate speech). A big thing that I liked, looking back anyway, was that they instill a strong sense of social justice since that's the Jesuits' "thing." They don't force religion on anyone, and in fact made me agnostic despite being raised Catholic & put through parochial school...they encourage critical thought and to question everything before choosing to believe in it (especially religion). You have to learn about the history of various religions, but that's it. There were Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Atheists, (you name it) here. They have a 99% matriculation rate, and 90%+ get accepted to the school of their choice. There's an entire (required) course senior year that focuses on college admissions and faculty go over each student's application letters and such. Maybe you get that in Cupertino & PA high schools I don't know, or people there pay extra for private college guidance...which is an added cost.

you forgot to put in the 6% Realtor extortion fee on the price difference

SFace says

BMW,

I have a simple model.

The increment from a 1M to 600K house is 400K. The first 600K will be there regardless or private schools, the increment is buying the school premium in lieu of private schools

The increments are the 4% interest rate and 1.3% property tax or 5.3% @ 33% net of tax deduction or 3.55%

400K @ 3.44% = $13,760 a year.

$13,760. That's the permanent differnece between a 1M home and a 600K home. All the other costs are essentially the same and the house price is a pass-through. For one kid, I would definitely pay for private schools, with two kids, a good school district are tremendous value. The private school better add enough value to make the price tag worthwhile.

At private schools, that is 16K per kid after tax. The better schools like SI, etc. are 30K. private school rates go up around 5% a year.

Fair enough. There is no single "right" answer so you'll obviously do what works for you (since you have obviously given this plenty of thought).

Is private school worth it? That depends...I can't see any justification for dropping $30k at Harker or something since that would most likely turn my kid into a douchebag, but some people are very wealthy and want to make sure that their kids grow up in, and are well connected, in that world. As far as the "lesser" private joints go, like Ballarmine or Mitty, I think that it was worth it at the time (it still amazes me that tuition almost tripled in 10 years). I think I was one of the "less motivated" kids there, although luckily for me I have a high aptitude for learning which sort of countered that. I spent a LOT of time wrenching on my car and working part-time jobs in retail after school to pay for it. Frankly, had I gone somewhere that didn't have a college guidance course & counselors, I am not sure if I would have gone to a 4 year university and gotten a mechanical engineering degree (found the motivation in college lol).

My parents rode my ass to get B's or better, but they weren't forcing me into SAT prep courses or anything (got around 1250 on it, took it once, no prep class) and I left HS with a 3.4GPA. Being an Eagle Scout basically got me admission to the schools I applied to, and THAT I couldn't have done without my parents kicking my ass. So, the thing that the private school gave me was individual, personal attention from faculty. At that stage of my life I needed it since my interests were centered on cars, camping and girls (although I was pretty unsuccessful at that lol). If your kids are of the more self-motivated / "ambitious" variety, they may well be fine in a public joint. My younger sister was "highly motivated" and a 4.0 kid, she went to Notre Dame and is now part way through her Chemistry PhD at UCSC. My parents decided to put is in private school after seeing the difference between public (where I started out elementary school) and private (where some of my cousins were going). They gave up a LOT to do it, drove old used Fords, no cable TV, rarely ate out and I couldn't thank them more for it now.

Anyway sorry about the long diatribe. I just wanted to share my experience as a "product of the system" and to hopefully show that not all kids that come out of private schools are snobby douchebag coke-addicts. Yeah yeah, the user name I know...it's a f'ing 1991 318 that I paid $2k for in 2005 lol...high roller! (we won't get into how much I have spent on it since then though...)

Serpentor says

Nope, my point is its foolish to think Crapertino is the center of the universe and its foolish to believe that somehow all the worlds elite strive go to Cupertino because of its schools.

Certain parties require ANY justification no matter how crazy it may be (clicks per page) to justify the high prices. Thats what we have come down to around here.

thomas.wong1986 says

Serpentor says

Nope, my point is its foolish to think Crapertino is the center of the universe and its foolish to believe that somehow all the worlds elite strive go to Cupertino because of its schools.

Certain parties require ANY justification no matter how crazy it may be (clicks per page) to justify the high prices. Thats what we have come down to around here.

Tiger mother is a bonafide terrorist.

SFace says

I do value API, especially at the HS level. It is the only quantifiable nchmark to compare one school with another.

Of course you do, because it is Cool and Hipper and Waaaay more Sophisticated to be a quant and fit the whole world into an equation.

It's also easier to do that than to get boots on the ground and learn about what really happens in the classrooms and schoolyards.

Hello, instead of all this bickering about high schools, if your kids are so hell bent on getting straight A's and scoring a perfect MCAT/LSAT/GRE/GMAT for professional schools, how about simply doing homeschooling ... get a GED, and take college classes, as continuing ed students, and then transferring those credits later, as a junior into another college?

On the east coast, here's Harvard's night program in Cambridge MA

http://www.extension.harvard.edu

And Univ of Penn in Philly PA ...

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps

The above programs also offer bachelors and masters degree, if transferring into a traditional class isn't important. Harvard's extension program is the cheapest and is the only program in MA, nearest to the state college tuition rate.

Good students from the above programs can also get into places like Johns Hopkins Medical School or the Univ of Chicago Law School, since I figured most of the parents posting here are mostly concerned about grad program placement.

Worse then going to a geek school. All you get from home schooling are socially awkward kids thats great at the stuff you teach them. They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills. How do they deal with bullies? Lead the soccer team to victory? Talk to girls? Go to the prom? Carry on a normal conversation with someone their own age?

Serpentor says

They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills. How do they deal with bullies? Lead the soccer team to victory? Talk to girls? Go to the prom?

As you know, this whole topic is about the competitive parents who all want their kids to attend medical or top 20 law schools. The best way to do this is to save the money for those programs than in feeding private prep schools and undergrad residential programs.

And I think you know a couple of things ... adults sue each other. The schoolyard bully, after the age of 18, faces assault/battery charges. Thus, the best a bully can hope for is to be an A-hole at work as oppose to a thug on the streets. As for soccer & such, there's the Boys/Girls scouts and they can meet kids from all different townships, not just the primary neighborhood. After seeing the issues w/ teen pregnancy and then, sexual harassment suits in the workplace, I'm not sure that 'talking to girls' is all that necessary; talking to adults, at a place like Harvard Extension, may be safer. Chances are that they'll already be married.

And finally, here's the real way to have fun. After one's gotten those credits for such & such undergrad program, do a one year program at Univ of London & pick one of the easier programs. Then, for that year ... go to the West End pubs, with your mates, and drink to your heart's content. All the actual studying for exams happens in the final weeks at London Univ.

Serpentor says

They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills.

I believe that after K-through-6, the kids have learned everything they need to know. The Jr high to high school, esp for these phony suburban cul de-sac communities, doesn't add anymore to their overall experiences. Semi-rural communities, however, are a different story.

I already know of a few parents, who took their kids out of the system after this point. None of them are screwed up and they seem to be well balanced and ready to either start college or an apprenticeship, if they go the trade way.

Rin,

Are you a parent?

If you are, please tell us your parenting experiences on this matter, what worked, what didn't, what you did that you would recommend to other parents, what you would recommend NOT to do, what you would've done different, etc.

Serpentor says

Worse then going to a geek school. All you get from home schooling are socially awkward kids thats great at the stuff you teach them. They lose the experience of interacting with other kids and learning interpersonal skills. How do they deal with bullies? Lead the soccer team to victory? Talk to girls? Go to the prom? Carry on a normal conversation with someone their own age?

I have a friend who homeschooled the kids partly because the modern curriculum at the schools taught evolution, did not read from the bible, etc. He was telling me about it when I visited him several years ago. Apparently in that community, there were at the time a critical mass of families like that who arrange "activities" together.

Bay Area Tiger Child

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/15/lisa-chan-pete-hoekstra-apologizes_n_1280271.html

"As a recent college grad who has spent time working to improve communities and empower those without a voice, this role is not in any way representative of who I am. It was absolutely a mistake on my part and one that, over time, I hope can be forgiven. I feel horrible about my participation and I am determined to resolve my actions."