patrick.net

Goran_K says

Is it legal to list a home on the MLS without disclosing known mold issues?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/vn_PSJsl0LQ

i thought they only had to disclose everything to a buyer.

last time i bouht or sold a house the 'disclosures' forms were only given after they accept your offer OR if you asked for them. And you can reject the deal (cancel sale) if you dont like the disclosures.

If they had to disclose everything in the MLS the house decription in the ad would be 30 pages of legal crap about the airport,landfill, possible lead, possible asbestos, cell phone tower 1 mile away, electric lines, the sewer easement, etc, on and on.

you are being ridonkulous.

there is no issue unless a sale goes thru without disclosures if i recall. not legal advice.

I've seen homes listed that say "mold remediation" needed, or "temite damage on deck". So I always thought agents were required to report this information.

Having a black mold infestation would seem like it would substantially lower the value of the home on the market.

one more comment. IMO toxic mold is a fraud like man made global warning, hazardous electric aluminum wiring, chimney problems, and dry rot the termite inspector will claim is termite damage.

welcome to the world of buying a house, you legally HAVE to pay them all: inspector, 4 agents commission, termite inspector, 4 people to process the papers at escrow, the 'title insurance', mold inpector/remediation(lol), im forgetting a lot.......

i beleive agents only put this in mls as courtesy which means they dont want a parade of scaredy cats who will scuttle the deal and waste their time.

BTW: since toxic mold is a farce, you will see it barely lowers the value of the house. maybe 5k which is what it might take to pay a dude to tear out a piece of drywall (and he wont replace it - he will leave bare studs! haha whata racket)

It's ridiculous. I'm thinking of just pausing this home search for a while. Tired of dealing with dishonest agents, inspections, and all sorts of shadiness. "That's not mold, it's probably dirt."

if you think buying a used home is a hassle try building a new one in CA. the local government will be all over you for 100 fees/inspections/certs/etc.

Let the BUYER beware .

The MLS is a set of private databases controlled by realtors. There is no government regulation or oversight of it at all AFAIK. It's not even one thing. There are actually many different incompatible MLS systems. The only thing that unifies them is their purpose in fleecing buyers as effectively as possible.

Of course this is a horrible situation for buyers, but since buyers have no lobbyists in DC, it is very unlikely that there will be any laws to protect buyers from the lies and half-truths that are endemic to the MLS.

Fortunately, there is Patrick.net! I would be very happy if you document your situation and make it available to search engines by putting in the address. That might help someone find the truth.

http://www.atlenv.com/moldhoax.html

according this article toxic mold is bullshit unless you have no immune system. in that case everything will kill you.

But attorneys make $$$$$$.

PockyClipsNow says

http://www.atlenv.com/moldhoax.html

according this article toxic mold is bullshit unless you have no immune system. in that case everything will kill you.

But attorneys make $$$$$$.

No offense porky, but unless you are a doctor of respiratory health, I don't think you can really give a valid opinion about the effects of black mold on people.

Here's an excerpt from a CDC article about how indoor mold can have an effect on health:

In 2004 the Institute of Medicine (IOM) found there was sufficient evidence to link indoor exposure to mold with upper respiratory tract symptoms, cough, and wheeze in otherwise healthy people; with asthma symptoms in people with asthma; and with hypersensitivity pneumonitis in individuals susceptible to that immune-mediated condition. The IOM also found limited or suggestive evidence linking indoor mold exposure and respiratory illness in otherwise healthy children.

So even healthy individuals can get sick from exposure to mold according to the CDC, unless you're claiming the CDC is in cahoots with inspectors, shady agents, and the housing industry.

The MLS is a set of private databases controlled by realtors. There is no government regulation or oversight of it at all AFAIK. It's not even one thing. There are actually many different incompatible MLS systems. The only thing that unifies them is their purpose in fleecing buyers as effectively as possible.

Of course this is a horrible situation for buyers, but since buyers have no lobbyists in DC, it is very unlikely that there will be any laws to protect buyers from the lies and half-truths that are endemic to the MLS.

Fortunately, there is Patrick.net! I would be very happy if you document your situation and make it available to search engines by putting in the address. That might help someone find the truth.

Thanks Patrick. It's nice that a website like yours exist to help fight some of the corruption in the NAR.

How would I document my experience on your website? Or should I just talk about the particular house here?

robertoaribas says

No, the listing agent and the owner would both be required to disclose such a latent material fact.

Both could be sued for failure to do so, by a future buyer. You could inform the agent of your intent to forward all this information to any future buyer...

Robert that's a good idea. Thanks for your input. Do you think I should contact Bank of America? There is a number on my short sale approval letter that says to call them if any issues or questions pop up during the process. See the thing is I'm not sure if the listing agent even presented my counter offer because we are asking for remediation and repair concessions (around $20,000 in work). I theorize this agent thinks the repair work might kill the deal so he's trying to find another buyer immediately before he discloses the mold issue, very shady.

Goran_K says

How would I document my experience on your website? Or should I just talk about the particular house here?

Yes, if you put down the address in this forum, Google and the other search engines will probably pick it up. So anyone doing a search on that address will likely see your comments.

The listing agent and the seller would both be required to disclose the issue to the next buyer. However, they are not required to disclose that info in the MLS.

There is a practical problem with mold disclosures -- ALL homes have mold.

As the EPA explains, "It is impossible to get rid of all mold and mold spores indoors; some mold spores will be found floating through the air and in house dust."

http://www.epa.gov/mold/moldbasics.html

Moreover, there is a big question regarding the general danger posed by mold. As the New York Times reports:

“Though the experts said mold and indoor dampness were associated with respiratory problems and symptoms of asthma in certain susceptible people, they found no evidence of a link between mold and conditions like brain or neurological damage, reproductive problems and cancer. They based their conclusions on a review of hundreds of scientific papers and reports but warned that the research was limited and that more studies were needed.”

http://www.ourbroker.com/library/mold-fears-in-real-estate-overgrown-says-fed-study-should-we-test-buyers-instead-of-houses/

Considering that the actress Brittany Murphy and her husband died from toxic mold in their house killing them as they slept...yeah, mold IS a big deal.

I'm sure there are different outcomes based on the quantity and classification of the mold, but I know I wouldn't want to make the biggest purchase of my life on something that has mold in it.

I had a similar experience with a short sale. Two weeks before closing it was disclosed that there were some "mold issues".

I too think the dangers of mold are overstated. However, I view every home sale with the idea I may be a seller in the future. I know that mold will forever be a mark on the house and something I will have to disclose to subsequent buyers. I walked from the deal. They got another backup buyer to sign the next day.

I am in escrow on a regular sale with no agents or banks. Talk about night and day. What a pleasant experience compared to the massive amount of BS with the short sale and the associated agents and banks.

I am convinced that a lot of short sales are not that great a deal. You take on a lot of risk without an equivalent reduction of price compared to a regular sale. People get so excited because they are in a "bank deal" but really are not looking at the risk/benefit equation. Yes, they are truly exceptional REO and short sale deals, but they are few and far between.

It is the buyers responsibility to inspect the home.

I too think the mold issue is over stated. It stared out as as a way for fat and lazy affirmative action kush job recipients, to bow out of actually having to show up for work, and still get paid. "There's mold in the air conditioner making me sick. Waaaaaaah" 1 fucking fat lazy bitch or bastard, out of hundreds of employees with undetectable symptoms. Of course the doctor is going to go along. So the Employer health plan will cover the cost of him doing dick all to administer medical care to the patients fictitious symptoms.

Get a mop and bucket and quit being a lazy ass. It's mold and mildew not toxic Godzilla piss.

StoutFiles says

Considering that the actress Brittany Murphy and her husband died from toxic mold in their house killing them as they slept...yeah, mold IS a big deal.

Exactly, even the quotes from people who say mold is not a big deal say mold can hurt you, but try to downplay it by saying "if you're susceptible". How do you know you are? When you get sick? That seems like a risky chance to take.

For instance Stachybotrys has been associated with the deaths of several infants, and children. Oh it's okay because it only kills babies so it's a non-issue and a media fabrication?

I don't get that logic.

TPB says

Get a mop and bucket and quit being a lazy ass. It's mold and mildew not toxic Godzilla piss.

How do you mop behind drywall? How do you mop an entire ventilation system?

Could it be mold is harmless and Brittany's mother only wants a 10m payday? Come on idiots - follow the money.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/19/brittany-murphy-actress-killed-by-toxic-mold-says-mother_n_1157795.html

What gets me, by the time mold is detected and over blown and shown on the news as an international lead in story. The crud has been left uncleaned, like a huge turd the creator is so proud of, he doesn't dare to flush it, until everyone looks at it.

For god sakes if it's there clean the shit up. Then go tell every one.

pocky, the CDC says Stachybotrys is dangerous and has documented cases where people have died from too much exposure to it.

Is the CDC trying to get paid? Do they have shady connections to mold remediation contractors? That seems highly unlikely.

I think more people will die from it, because god forbid the stores sale soap and bleach with phosphorus and other effective cleaning agents.
Now we have to buy dish soap that can double as soda syrup, but we have hand cleaners that can strip your hands of beneficial cultures that keep the bad bugs at bay.

Leave soap alone, and quit scaring people, bring back soap and tell people to get busy scrubbing the deck.

TPB, what if you do scrub, and get rid of the mold, but it comes back in 60 days because of a faulty deck design, spores remained in the wood (which requires a special foam and treatment in itself)?

Mold is complex and difficult to get rid of depending on the infestation.

Like I said the stuff is hard to get rid of because a certain so and so, legislated that soap be useless and does dick all to clean anything.
Either you buy inefficient, ineffective soap, or you have to buy industrial strength shit that will give you lymphoma in ten years, and your grandkids will have a third arm sprouting from their backbone.

You can't buy the shit, my mom used to use, to clean and kill seasonal mold and mildew with.

I read if you use baking soda, combined with a vinegar+water method, you can kill about 95% of the dangerous spores. Still doesn't prevent it from coming back unlike treated wood.

PockyClipsNow says

Could it be mold is harmless and Brittany's mother only wants a 10m payday? Come on idiots - follow the money.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/19/brittany-murphy-actress-killed-by-toxic-mold-says-mother_n_1157795.html

So she and her husband both died of natural causes in their 30's? That's not very likely.

The money has nothing to do with it, if I thought my kid died because of shoddy building practices I would sue their brains out. Not for a "payday", but hopefully to shut them down, or at least make them think twice about ever doing it again.

I dont know what killed them but I would bet a LARGE sum of money it wasnt mold since no one has ever been proven to have died from that ever according to what ive read.

People die from falling down stairs and in the tub/shower every day though.

Its a sad story for sure, now the lying lawyers are gonna get paid.

It is elligal to sell a house with anything major wrong with it, but the problem with that is you have to prove that the owner new about the problem, then you have to put up the money to take them to court. And then hopefully you get and honest judge that will take your side, and you got to be willing to waste probably 3 years of your life fighting for what is right. And hopefully you don't lose your shirt and your time. Good luck. In the mean time if the inspectors don't catch the problem your out of luck. So flip a coin when you buy a house.

Goran, the listing agent is only going to put stuff in the MLS that even the most clueless buyer is going to notice, because if he doesn't, he's going to waste his time with a lot of offers that are withdrawn as soon as disclosures and inspections happen.

Aside from this, it's caveat emptor.

And...would you really want it any other way? Just imagine, if you will, our great and august Legislature -- I refer mockingly to those crack-smoking brain-damaged whores and clowns up in Sacramento -- were actually to consider a law about what must and must not be written into the MLS.

Now imagine all the lobbying to and fro, with (say) people who remediate mold arguing for mold being included, and people who remediate radon arguing for that, and those who specialize in feng shui wanting it disclosed whether the chi of the house is upgefucked, or it has a poltergeist, or any old crap.

What you'd end up with, provided you ended up with anything that makes sense at all, would be like those Proposition 65 warnings you now see practically everywhere (on the door of your supermarket, on the pumps on the gas station) saying that substances known to the State of California to cause cancer may (or may not, ha ha) be present in significant concentrations on the premises.

What's that? You don't remember those signs? That is, you noticed them when they first went up some years ago, but ever since, since they're just everywhere without rhyme or reason, your eyes just glaze over and they fade into the background?

Yes. Exactly.

Count your blessings that your lesson was cheap.

Goran_K says

I've seen homes listed that say "mold remediation" needed, or "temite damage on deck". So I always thought agents were required to report this information.

Having a black mold infestation would seem like it would substantially lower the value of the home on the market.

Don't buy the house.

Well, I just signed the cancellation. I think in the end, it's better to avoid what could be a major problem, and the market doesn't look like it's going anywhere but down in Orange County.

Really liked the neighborhood, and house though, such a shame the former owners didn't maintain the home the way it deserved.

Here in Vero Beach, FL - lots of shorts and foreclosures were never properly refurbed from the 2004-2005 hurricane damage when the local market crashed shortly thereafter. Mold is a huge problem here and totally covered up by the local realtors. We watched as a local group of realtors that had formed and investment LLC bought up short/FC properties, promptly doing whatever was necessary and the absolute minimal - to cover mold and on going leak damage so they could flip shorts and foreclosures for themselves - especially to out of area buyers. After all they get always get first shot at them. IMO it's totally unprofessional, possibly criminal - and awaiting the right attorneys to sue the realtors for liability, willful endangerment and pursue criminal negligence charges. There has been few times when "buyer beware" was more true or needed than in the FL real estate market.

Goran_K says

I just signed the cancellation. I think in the end, it's better to avoid what could be a major problem

The sad thing is, Agents & Banksters will now just go and find a buyer\family who is not alert or educated of certain details & later claim "WELL YOU READ & SIGNED THE NOTICE".
Good for you Goran.

That's true. The agent claimed that he had a "full cash buyer" in the wings and that I should rethink my decision. It's lunacy. Agents are so shady and corrupt now days.

Goran_K says

Agents are so shady and corrupt now days.

Days don't change their character. :)

robertoaribas says

No, the listing agent and the owner would both be required to disclose such a latent material fact.

Both could be sued for failure to do so, by a future buyer. You could inform the agent of your intent to forward all this information to any future buyer...

Roberto, what would you say about this scenario? Its happening to me as we speak. Buyers agent sends me an email with three newly listed houses. He knows exactly what my requirements are. These three properties meet all requirements except one is a "Stealth REO", its listed as an active but it pretends like it is NOT an REO but an investor flip. Back to the story. I investigate the property in every legal way at my disposal including courthouse searches, public records and database analyses most of this is KNOWN to all agents concerned because it is hidden under the confidential remarks ( non public) from the listing agent/ proxy for the bank. We study the data and consult with our "buyers agent" one more time ME--> "ANY MLS INFORMATION about this property THAT YOU HAVE that is negative or positive we must have, you are supposed to represent us.." Buyers agent---> "Everything is 100%...it's a good deal and is priced correctly." I ran my CMA and it comes out 2k high, and I offer 2 k low to reflect its real apparent market value. Buyers agent.. "The listing agent is waiting and needs to make a decision before noon, I talked to her on the telephone and I think she will accept your offer. I hop in the car and drive to see the wife and get her signature (buyers agent requires both). I arrived to the buyers agent office and he gives me a sad look. Whats up? Well...bad news, it seems there is rust or corrosion in the water well pump". What? How do you know? Its says so RIGHT HERE IN THE CONFIDENTIAL MLS NOTES. He shoves it in my face for about 2 seconds and rapidly withdraws it. He called the listing agent on the telephone ...and it immediately set off my internal UH OH--it's d FRAUD alarm bells.. HE HAD THIS ALL ALONG...why didn't he tell me. They are playing "good cop bad cop" and I am the pigeon. THEY ALREADY KNOW EACH OTHER AND ARE TALKING (speakerphone) in front of me to trick me. BOTH REALTORS ARE PLAYING ME. He said the damage would "only" be 1,000 and we could make a lower offer to "cover the cost" . I said okay and left. When I got home I called a semi-retired Realtor broker who HATES realtors. I told him what happened , and he laughed...happens all the time in this business...I WANT EVERYTHING hidden in the MLS about this property for the last three years. Here it is....20 pages of DETAILS...on one house---and ALL I see is the sales fluff an hype...but I noticed something NEW. The confidential notes showed the name of the inspector who made the finding. It was very general and had NO SPECIFICs for price of labor or equipment...the Realtors had made this up to cover over serious damage. My Realtor friend found ANOTHER confidential NOTE signed by a well known engineer 5 days before the listing! So what happened is they didn't like the engineers opinion so they hired a hack to say something minor that would "only" be $1,000. I took the copy of the ORIGINAL letter to the engineer who wrote it ( YES TODAY IS SUNDAY---I visited his house) and he gave an estimate of over $10,000. What about this? The MLS was used to attempt to defraud me BY BOTH LISTING AND BUYERS AGENT. It gets nasty but my buyers agent said he "could not find the confidential note he showed me, he added don't tell your mortgage company and you won't need any inspectors for well, termites or building because this house has been completely renovated by the bank. You can use that money for the pump repairs. TELL ME THAT THESE REALTORS ARE ETHICAL. THEY ARE CONCEALING MATERIAL FACTS BOTH OF THEM. I am not quite sure how to handle it. The MLS will only talk to Realtors and the head of the Realtor association is known for his sneaky ways. BTW I learned that in his pre-Realtor life he sold USED tires. Big man con artist is now a Realtor. What should I do? WHO REPRESENTS THE BUYERS?