patrick.net

He wants a sound bite to use to get elected. That's all. Bachmann has found hers (turn 999 upside down & the devil's in the details) which makes her sound even more odd than we thought possible.

I like 999.

I'm all for tossing the steering wheel out the window and hitting the gas when driving near a cliff.

YES, EXHILIRATING ISN'T IT?

I finally looked it up, 999 that is, as I've been too busy to follow the debates or what Cain is up to.

All I can say is, wow !

Considering where we are economically and that we have the widest gap ever between rich and poor with the middle class shrinking fast, this is amazing.

You can't make this stuff up. I feel like I'm living in a Kurt Vonnegut novel. It's simultaneously depressing and funny.

elliemae says

He wants a sound bite to use to get elected. That's all. Bachmann has found hers (turn 999 upside down & the devil's in the details) which makes her sound even more odd than we thought possible.

Reminds me of "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit".

Some people are like Slinkies ... not really good for anything, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.  

Perhaps he was just tossing around pizza pricing.

$10? No, $9.99.

Hey Nine Ninety Nine, that really flows off the tongue don't it? Maybe we can cobble up a tax plan under that name which will get me the Presidency.

Vicente says

Perhaps he was just tossing around pizza pricing.

$10? No, $9.99.

Hey Nine Ninety Nine, that really flows off the tongue don't it? Maybe we can cobble up a tax plan under that name which will get me the Presidency.

Ironically, you're probably right on with this one.

Whoops, turns out 9,9,9 is exactly the tax structure in SimCity 4.

In Herman Cain's game of course, disaster mode will be turned off and you will never see:

MarsAttacks! says

And if he does somehow make it all the way, SFace is correct: It will never be implemented.

I hope he wins so we can all get over Obama, and peoples attributes toward him wont be shielded by their view of him, as specially unique. Then people will be able to objectively fault and criticize Obama's short comings.
Then just maybe, we wont be so easy on President Cain, and will ride his Ass for four years. Instead of Us, being given lectures, monologues, and out right lied to for four years.

Of course the 999 tax plan would never work. Two of the taxes are working against each other. With that kind of sales tax, people will save and invest their money. They wont spend it. It will cost more to spend the money than it does to earn and save money.
It would be a no brainer save and invest your money, and if you buy, then buy on the black market.

The GOP says

Repealing the gas tax alone would lower the price of all consumer goods and food commodities by at least 9% across the board.

Bullshit. The gas tax isn't even 9% of the price of gas. If it's not 9% of the price of gas, then how could the price of other stuff possibly go down 9% by removing the gas tax. Logic fail.

The GOP says

Now 9% Corporate tax, now if that don't make your Susan B Anthony tingle with delight, I don't know what does. It would be a great time to be an entrepreneur. You'll be better off working a produce cart, than working a name tag at Wal-Mart.

Bullshit. People working produce carts do not pay corporate tax rates. Most small businesses do not pay corporate tax rates.

corntrollio says

Bullshit. The gas tax isn't even 9% of the price of gas. If it's not 9% of the price of gas, then how could the price of other stuff possibly go down 9% by removing the gas tax. Logic fail.

I didn't say it was, The Gas tax acts as a VAT proxy that drives everything across the board up more than 10%.

Every time Oil goes up in a rally, food and transportation costs goes up, and doesn't seem to slide back to scale. The Gas tax was part of the reason for the artificial inflation that was illusive for Ben Bernanke, when he was claiming we should have been having inflation, during Bush's last few years in Office. Ben how ever did not get his coveted inflation, only until a Gas tax was imposed, so Rich people could get rebates for buying their expensive Green car toys, that only the rich can afford.

The world inflation issues are purely from unchecked commodity manipulation not even speculation. The investors are determining the price. Oil companies can afford to pay their profits back into the Oil Market from which they either buy Oil to refine or Oil they drill and will get back anyway at the pump.
It's no problem for them to artificially keep Oil over 80 a barrel, while Joe Blow ditches them from his 401K portfolio on Monday, big Oil is buying them on Tuesday. They do after all have record profits month over month to keep that way.

Let's try to keep this bipartisan, I'm not really knocking Obama or his administration. The truth is, at this rate, we would have the same result if McCain won in 08. It's just part of the comfortable cozy relationship corporations have with out Congress as well as the Senate.

It's those Bozos that create these think tank committees and decide to ease up on regulation in aspects of our economy. Then when ill effects take root, and there's a Mutinous rabble from the constituency. They put on a Dog and Pony show, and parade the perps in front of all of the cable networks, and give them a finger wagging and a wink. Kick them in the Ass then tell them to carry on.

It's a Damn Joke.

corntrollio says

Bullshit. People working produce carts do not pay corporate tax rates. Most small businesses do not pay corporate tax rates.

http://biztaxlaw.about.com/b/2009/04/03/how-much-tax-do-businesses-pay.htm

That's on top of paying 30% on their income tax and covering some of the employees Tax with holdings.

999 is perfect for people interested in saving and making money. It's terrible for those that want to flaunt Bling.

The problem is, it starts at 999 but how long before it's 20/20/10 or worse? The other problem is, it would be so effective at creating a nation of Misers, it would hardly generate enough revenue to support the day to day operations in Washington.

The conundrum cheap corporate or income tax creates is, it's hard to be productive, when no body is buying, due to prohibitive sales taxation.

The GOP says

http://biztaxlaw.about.com/b/2009/04/03/how-much-tax-do-businesses-pay.htm

That's on top of paying 30% on their income tax and covering some of the employees Tax with holdings.

(a) that link agrees with what I said (and also points out that the small business that DO pay the corporate tax pay half of its stated rate on average).

(b) they are not paying 30% in addition to that if it's a sole proprietorship, partnership, or S corp (and by extension, many LLCs, since they are disregarded entities) -- according to your link, most small businesses use individual tax rates, as I stated.

There is some good data there:

Nearly 60 percent of small sole proprietorships have a net income of less than $10,000, while only 3.1 percent have a net income of at least $100,000. On the other hand, more than 18 percent of small S corporations have a net income of at least $100,000.

That means very few small businesses make $250K. Note that even if an S corp makes more than $250K, there might be two or more shareholders in that business, in which case there might be no individual that makes $250K.

Sole proprietorships face a 13.3 percent rate, small partnerships face 23.6 percent, and small S corporations face 26.9 percent. While not directly comparable, the rate faced by small C corporations is 17.5 percent.

Even C corps don't pay anywhere near the 35% headline rate.

The GOP says

I didn't say it was, The Gas tax acts as a VAT proxy that drives everything across the board up more than 10%.

No, it doesn't. The federal gas tax is not more than 9% of gas price and could not possibly drive up the price of other things by more than 9% by itself.

Even if the price of oil goes up, the gas tax stays the same. The gas tax has nothing to do with your point.

corntrollio says

(and also points out that the small business that DO pay the corporate tax pay half of its stated rate on average).

But they pay tax.

corntrollio says

Nearly 60 percent of small sole proprietorships have a net income of less than $10,000, while only 3.1 percent have a net income of at least $100,000. On the other hand, more than 18 percent of small S corporations have a net income of at least $100,000.

I was talking about Fruit stand vendors that thought bigger ambitions than a 10K a year. As for 18 percent, those are the one's they didn't audit. Sure there's loop holes, and complicated tax codes. That's not my point.

If you have a business and that business makes 300K a year in revenue. Either way you slice it, you're paying tax on it. If you have any employees at all, you'll pay even more. There's workman comp, local taxes, health insurance, local zoning and usage compliance, impact fees, cert of occupancy, city license...

Gee you make it sound like businesses don't pay taxes.

Obligatory Isn't 9.99 supposed to be the price for a pizza?

Seriously, does the plan actually say anything about it replacing things like gas or cigarette taxes?

The GOP says

But they pay tax.

No one said they didn't. I said they paid individual federal income tax rates.

The GOP says

Gee you make it sound like businesses don't pay taxes.

That wasn't my point. My response was to your original comment:

The GOP says

Now 9% Corporate tax, now if that don't make your Susan B Anthony tingle with delight, I don't know what does. It would be a great time to be an entrepreneur. You'll be better off working a produce cart, than working a name tag at Wal-Mart.

A lot of small businesses don't pay corporate tax rates because they aren't C corps, so the corporate tax rate is irrelevant to them. What part of that don't you understand? Or are you just trolling?

zzyzzx says

Seriously, does the plan actually say anything about it replacing things like gas or cigarette taxes?

No it doesn't.

corntrollio says

A lot of small businesses don't pay corporate tax rates because they aren't C corps, so the corporate tax rate is irrelevant to them. What part of that don't you understand? Or are you just trolling?

Well you're talking about DBA accounts, or folks doing contracts for a 1099, as a S corporation, aren't exactly small business anyway. Those are people working for them selves.
There's a HUGE difference in someone that doesn't want to work for the man, or someone running a full fledged business.
A contractor working out of his house, doesn't have any of the expenses associated with some one actually running a small business.
And the two are as different as some one running a sandwich shop with employees, as apposed to a national burger chain like McDonald's.

The problem with you Libs, is you only think what the California talking bites tells you, like ALL corporations are Large corporations making money hand over fist, and should be taxed 50% or more. With out taking the time to explore the Long tail of the whole picture for self to draw your own conclusion.

And your business prowess are astounding, remind me NOT to go in business with you.

The GOP says

The problem with you Libs, is you only think what the California talking bites tells you, like ALL corporations are Large corporations making money hand over fist, and should be taxed 50% or more. With out taking the time to explore the Long tail of the whole picture for self to draw your own conclusion.

The only people paying corporate taxes are corporations. Not that many small business are actual corporations. LLC makes more sense for small business most of the time. I believe only something like 2-3% of business's are actually incorporated.

Taxed 50% or more. Who said that? Actually I would be pleased if multinational corporations like GE paid a rate above 0% (or less than 0% with subsidies and credits). The corporate tax system has a high rate but many exemptions. Some companies pay much higher taxes than others for the same profit. By industry it's estimated (tax returns are private) the actual paid varies from 30% for retail, 24% for manufacturing, 20% for financial services, 18% real estate, to 6% for mining.

The GOP says

Well you're talking about DBA accounts, or folks doing contracts for a 1099, as a S corporation, aren't exactly small business anyway. Those are people working for them selves.

No, I'm not exclusively talking about those, but lots of small businesses are sole proprietorships and partnerships. YOU were the one talking about produce carts and have the nerve to tell me I'm talking about busineses that are too small? Thanks, troll.

I was entirely responsive to your point on corporate taxes. You just don't like the answer because your analysis wasn't up to snuff. That's fine, but don't try to pretend that you have any business sense. You don't even seem to understand that partnerships, LLCs, and S corps don't generally pay the corporate tax, which is bizarre.

The GOP says

ALL corporations are Large corporations making money hand over fist, and should be taxed 50% or more. With out taking the time to explore the Long tail of the whole picture for self to draw your own conclusion.

The irony is that I was talking about small corporations, and you weren't. I looked at the long tail (which includes all types of businesses), and you didn't. You're good at using metaphors and calling people names, but you don't have much substance.

Oh I see what you don't GET.
the 999 plans sees all businesses as businesses and not individual. But really they are both taxed at 999 under Herman Kang's plan. So what difference does it make which one you're taxed at?

9% is a hell of a lot better 15-30%.

The Irony is you just can't let a good argument about nothing to do, go un-wagered.

It's a crappy idea, we both agree on that. And most people and the variation in which they practice the taxcode for their business, on this side of legal. Would welcome a 9% tax rate. That's for those that actually make money.

The GOP says

Would welcome a 9% tax rate. That's for those that actually make money.

You mean people like me? Sure, a 9% rate would probably lower my taxes, but I'm not sure if it'd be good for the country.

By the way, those stats you pulled from http://archive.sba.gov/advo/research/rs343tot.pdf are probably a little flawed, as described in the doc. A large percentage of sole proprietorship already pay less than 9% (page 54).

Partnerships is where the methodology gets a bit dicey. The assumption in the methodology is that a partner has other income as well, and it is assumed that the partnership income gets taxed at the highest rate. The S Corp data suffers from the same flaw. What they should have done is focused on effective rates.

The C corp data also sites a flaw, but that flaw would actually make the rates higher. However, the corporate tax is more funky to discuss, since the incidence of it is believed by many wonks to be individuals in substance.

corntrollio says

A large percentage of sole proprietorship already pay less than 9% (page 54).

yeah because they write off every visit to CostCo and Sam's Club, as business expenses, claim their 21 year old daughter as a dependent or "B" they need to quit working for peanuts for the glory of calling them selves self employed and have the person filtering them work on a 1099 give them a W2. So they can get money back instead of owing money for the year.

Much like Carpet installers, Cleaning crews and other workers that work by piece work, should be paid a fair wage and paid by W2, and have all of that taken care of for them. Instead, they end up paying more, or having to get creative to avoid paying at all.

Many people are confused and don't really know they are only Employees, that their employer conned them into working for shit, and paying all of their own taxes.

That's a mess that needs to be fixed out side of the scope, of how much or little should businesses be taxed.

MarsAttacks! says

He's getting it equally from the Romney-loving RINO establishment as well as from the Left who fear he will take black votes from Obama.

Prediction: he will take about 2 votes from Obama, and those will be in Cain's immediate family.

The black vote is not a monolith, and they aren't stupid. He's being criticized as an unrealistic goon, and his silly tax plan proves it.

Also, he won't win, because he won't get through the primaries. The people that vote in the GOP primary/caucus states don't really embrace the "coloreds".

The pollsters ask, and the respondents say they'd support Cain, but what they really mean is that they're wary of Romney 2.0.

The real lead in the polls is a tie between "undecided" and "none of the above".

Insulting black voters by calling them "brain-washed" is a great way for Cain to steal black votes from Obama. If he keeps this up, he might not even get the 2 black votes from his immediate family!

Just imagine the outrage if Rick Perry said that black voters are brain-washed into voting Democrat. Sit there for a minute and imagine the outrage. Perry's political career would be over.

Whoops, Herman has run over the Norquist land-mine:

WASHINGTON - U.S. anti-tax activist Grover Norquist questioned Republican presidential contender Herman Cain's "999" tax reform plan on Friday, saying it opened the door to future tax increases.

For Norquist -- founder and president of Americans for Tax Reform, a powerful anti-tax lobbying group -- that is a future not to be tolerated.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44910768

I was just wondering how much an ex ceo of a major corporation would save in taxes under 999, especially since it drops capital gains. Someone like say Cain. Even more curious how much the major campaign contributors to an ex ceo turned politico would save. Someone like say Cain. Just a thought.

I think Cain's 999 plan is nuts and a special industry handout. Bigger burden on the main street middle class, lower taxes for wall street speculation.

As a real conservative I want import tariffs, smaller government, smaller military, and no income taxes. Cain is exact opposite. He wants bigger military, bigger main street tax. Cain isn't getting my vote.

Nomograph says

FortWayne says

As a real conservative I want import tariffs, smaller government

Import tarrifs ARE bigger government.

"Real conservatives" don't advocate more government interference in free markets.

Let other pens dwell on guilt and misery -- Jane Austen

Please don't confuse maximum freedom and minimal government with anarchy and no government.

Nomo is correct--free trade is usually associated with conservatives.

well if they won't let the military go, tariffs is what would pay for it. not the income tax.

just depends on what your generation is conservative about.