patrick.net

Abortion is clearly an emotionally charged topic and righfully so. There are pros and cons to each position. For example, there is plenty of evidence that where abortion is illegal, orphanages, child abandonemt and level sof overall crime in society proliferate. At the same time, we can logically conclude that if the aborted fetus was allowed to continue its course that the creature would end up a living human being in an overwhelming amount of cases which makes abortion a de facto murder. The best thing that can be done is to not end up in this situation in the first place, such as use birth control - that will save the affected parties from having to make these very tough decisions.

Marcus, on your first question about a condom stopping the natural process - the answer is no, the natural process was not stopped. Thats because fertilization had not occurred.

And the "no crime 30 seconds before and a criminal act 30 seconds after" scenario is codified in law. That makes it real, doesn't it? But you're right, early abortion is not considered murder (although it is still taking a human life).

Under existing law, if I'm not mistaken, a women can terminate her zygote, fetus or baby any time up to partial birth. Once the baby is out of the birth canal, her "right" to terminate ends. At first you can terminate, abort, kill the baby...but now you can't.

So a women has "freedom of choice". Her "rights" can transcend the rights and extinguish the life of another living being, even though it is her own offspring. Where's the caring, love and nurturing in that? To me that is a very simple example that demonstrates democrats are not the caring, loving, nurturing individuals they make themselves out to be.

I read that more babies are aborted every week in America, than all who died in the 9-11 tragedy. Isn't that an ongoing American tragedy?

Honest Abe says

And the "no crime 30 seconds before and a criminal act 30 seconds after" scenario is codified in law. That makes it real, doesn't it? But you're right, early abortion is not considered murder (although it is still taking a human life).

Under existing law, if I'm not mistaken, a women can terminate her zygote, fetus or baby any time up to partial birth. Once the baby is out of the birth canal, her "right" to terminate ends. At first you can terminate, abort, kill the baby...but now you can't.

You are mistaken. Laws vary by state, but abortion is generally available on demand only in the first trimester, somewhat restricted in the second, and available only under extreme circumstances in the third trimester. Late term (post-viability) abortions are not allowed in most states under normal circumstances. There's nowhere in the country where a woman can have an elective abortion 30 minutes prior to delivery, nor should there be.

I stand corrected, thank you. Abe

Honest Abe says

I stand corrected, thank you. Abe

Wow, in 15 years of arguing on the Internet that's never happened to me. I think I need to lie down now...

marcus says

zzyzzx says

No Child Left Behind = Welfare for Teachers.

Haha. If it were a contest, I say you win.

(by the way - teachers generally hate NCLB )

Marcus could you explain this from your point of view as a teacher. What do you think of NCLB, good bad etc...?

thomas.wong1986 says

There are plenty of non-whites who dont favor Democrats or the Liberal agenda. Its all about maturity! what do the Liberals, offer! Not much!

Not a single minority Demographic supports the GOP. Not one. And they haven't really, for a long time.

If you're being honest as a party loyalist, you should be asking why. And you should be concerned at the reasons you'll find. And you'd know that minorities aren't dumb, and they know where they are not welcome, and that's in the GOP.

CL says

Not a single minority Demographic supports the GOP. Not one. And they haven't really, for a long time.

You have no idea what in the hell you're talking about.
Most of the Hispanics in this country are here to escape Leftists that have destroyed their country.

And self sufficient blacks that aren't on the public dole or aren't employed by a branch of government, i.e. business owners, or aspiring business owners are majority Republican.

It's not a coincidence that most poor people are Liberals only until they make good and break out on their own. By time they own property, get money in the bank, build up credit, and have some skin in the game, these are the people that elected Bush twice.

zzyzzx says

No Child Left Behind = Welfare for Teachers.

No Child Left Behind = Fuck'em!

Good Schools or else!

CaptainShuddup says

You have no idea what in the hell you're talking about.
Most of the Hispanics in this country are here to escape Leftists that have destroyed their country.

Do you have any, ya know, FACTS to back that up? I've read the polls and none support this theory you want to believe.

In fact, South America has been electing a lot of leftist leaders nowadays, now that many have had free and fair elections and support the will of the indigenas.

FortWayne says

Marcus could you explain this from your point of view as a teacher.

There's a lot to it, but the biggest problem is testing. Giving tests and preparing students for tests takes a lot of time. "Teaching to the test" is what teachers generally hate.

Imagine being a high school teacher working with kids that are behind in math. They're in say ninth grade Algebra (note: algebra can be taken as early as 7th if kids are ready).

Imagine further that this 9th grade class is comprised primarily of kids that already took algebra in 8th and failed. They failed because somewhere along the line they got behind. So they need a lot of work with basic arithmetic, problem solving fractions and so on. As a teacher you want to come up with a plan for mixing in enough review.

(note: many elementary school teachers hate MAth, and this is sometimes the reason these kids are behind. But also parents sometimes give their kids permission from an early age. "That's okay honey, I was terrible at math too.")

So you want to work on bringing the kids up to grade level, while also covering basics of Algebra. But next week you have to give a quarterly assessment on linear equations. This test isn't as important as the state tests they take at the end of the year, it's a district test that's designed to keep us on pace for the State test. But it takes a day to give the test. I have to give it, even if my students aren't resady for it (because I've been working on things they should have learned before).

So what do I do ? Do I forget about working on the most important basics, and try to get whichever students I can I can ready for this test? Or do I focus on what I think its best, but then waste a day giving the test, and make the kids feel bad because they aren't ready for it?

I could continue, but the point is that even though there is more insistence on teachers being qualified, there is less trust in them doing what they want and need to do. Curriculum is very prescribed, and tests (even now) are increasing in importance.

The result is actually leaving kids behind, rather than the other way around.

Look up "teaching to the test" if you want to know more.

Here's an example of the kind of thing you'll find.

http://www.bestmastersineducation.com/teaching-to-tests/

CL says

Do you have any, ya know, FACTS to back that up?

Marco Rubio is a Cuban-American Florida Senator that was just elected with about 60% of the Latino vote.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/12/are-hard-line-cuban-americans-strong-as-ever/old-guard-are-reliable-voters-and-organized

The illegals vote Democrat, but not those with papers. That is why the Left is fighting Florida's right to purge the voters polls of dead and illegal voters so hard.

There's no way that one person can possibly educate 20 or 30 other people. Education requires individual attention.

Without parental involvent in a child's education, the child won't get very far.

Throwing lots of money, standards, and tests at the problem won't do a damn thing.

marcus says

Look up "teaching to the test" if you want to know more.

I remember being in that kind of environment as a jr. high student the year I lived in Texas. It was terrible.

All systems are gamed. People who design easily-gamable systems belong in the lowest circle of hell. --Charlie Munger

What do you think teachers will do if it's all about test-taking? They'll just teach the test.

Cubans are unique among hispanics and tend to often be republican.

CaptainShuddup says

That is why the Left is fighting Florida's right to purge the voters polls of dead and illegal voters so hard.

This is a blatant lie. Nobody is trying to keep dead and illegals on the voting lists.

Sources ?

Do you vote ? Do you know how it works ? Do you have any idea how difficult it is for an illegal to get on the list of voters that is used at the polls. Do you have sources that prove how often this happens ?

Oh there's a criminal named jose martinez, let's go ahead and delete all of them.

Back in 2000, 12,000 eligible voters – a number twenty-two times larger than George W. Bush’s 537 vote triumph over Al Gore – were wrongly identified as convicted felons and purged from the voting rolls in Florida, according to the Brennan Center for Justice.

The truth is more likely that you're the kind of guy that get's a kick out of seeing the GOP cheat. I have a name for that. It ends with bag.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/florida-gop-takes-voter-supression-to-a-brazen-new-extreme-20120530#ixzz20FlrllUz

Um Rollingstone can't even make decent article on the sad state of the music and entertainment industry(they helped destroy btw) Why on earth would I consider them as a valid source of political pontification?

Yes, facts are now political pontification.

You're more than just well on your way.

You live down there. Has there been some bipartisan process put in place about being careful when taking illegals and felons off the list?

How much collateral damage of taking good registered voters off the list is okay with you ?

(note: I'm working under the assumption that you don't see yourself as a dirtbag)

I think this is a pretty important question, when you consider the slim likelyhood that those illegals or felons would have even voted in the first place.

I bet you buy in to the argument that black voters were disenfranchised because the police were at the voting polls to provide security.
So they were to intimidated to go into vote. Though the obvious question would have been, what were they paranoid of?
But if they weren't there and someone got shot(like happens on a nightly basis in South Florida in that neighborhood) there would have been Hell to pay.

CaptainShuddup says

I bet you buy in to the argument that black voters were disenfranchised because the police were at the voting polls to provide security.

No, but I am somebody that knows that "voter suppression" is a very real republican strategy.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/karoli/shameless-republican-brags-about-voter-id-w

It seems to me that for any self respecting human being, that alone should be enough to say good bye to the extreme right. Besides the democrats are plenty right wing enough. Don't worry.

marcus says

Yes, facts are now political pontification.

You're more than just well on your way.

Rollingstone is was a Rock-N-Roll industry magazine, they haven't had anything constructive to contribute to society in over 20 years.
Other than contributing to my earlier argument, about the adulteration of our preteens, and created a culture of incarcerated teens idolizing those on death row.

Well it was the Liberals that were holding voting cards up to the light trying to dictate what the feeble old senior citizens they bussed to the polls, that should have been at their doctors appointment that day, trying to decipher their intended selection.

In the old days, everyone would have agreed those votes goes into the shit pile.

The Liberal class of 2000 did more to destroy our Democratic process than any Conservative could ever possible do, by protecting the integrity of the voter rolls.

Thanks to that sad display in 2000, disputing election results will now be as frivolous as doing a gratuity shot of Patron at the bar, on a night on the town.

I bet you have a problem with people needing ID to vote?

We've doing that in Florida for as long as I've been Voting. Why is that huge problem now in Texas and Arizona now?

CaptainShuddup says

contributing to my earlier argument, about the adulteration of our preteens,

They followed hip hop, they didn't lead it.

You really think the kids buying hip hop were readers of Rolling Stone ?

Really ?

It might have informed some business moguls about what was going on with hip hop.

Hmmm. So you think the job of a good music magazine should be to try to shape music. Back in 1970 I suppose the typical conservative would have complained that Rolling Stone was paying way too much attention to Hendrix, Cream, and Led Zepplin, and not enough attention to Andy Williams, and Niel Sedaka

Jimi Hendrix crossed the line before he died, and had a few tracks that were banned in the US.

Sheesh marcus...still arguing with CaptainShouldShuddup?

marcus says

You really think the kids buying hip hop were readers of Rolling Stone ?

Yeah when they started calling Bling wearing, Cognac swigging thugs "Rock Stars"

When I'm trying to learn about interesting music, I will often refer to Rolling Stones lists of best albums from the previous year (not always easy to find). Hip hop is on these lists but not over hyped, and quite easy to ignore.

There's always at least a couple or three that are of interest to me.

CaptainShuddup says

marcus says

You really think the kids buying hip hop were readers of Rolling Stone ?

Yeah when they started calling Bling wearing, Cognac swigging thugs "Rock Stars"

Are you for real or just a troll ? It's true, in your case its really hard to tell. You sometimes don't seem as stupid as you insist on portraying yourself.

Again, Rolling Stone follows, they don't lead. They never have had the choice of ignoring what teens are buying and listening to. When they do,
that's when you will know that your fascist fantasy is more true than ever.

Let's just say Marcus I went through the late 90's and early 2000's with a preteen-teen in the family. While I don't believe in censorship, Lou Pearlman's incarceration came about 7 years too late.

And for people to look at PDiddy and Dr. Dre as respectable pioneers, that we're now supposed to buy everything from Laptops to Toothpaste from is a joke.

Parents competing with the garbage these scum bags were producing and marketing to kids "KIDS" not older teens 16-17+. It was adulterating a generation of kids that were ill equipped to deal with that kind of exposure, while the Liberal elite were blaming parents for the kids behavior. You couldn't escape it, the shit was everywhere. There were even K-Tel Kiddie Hop to prime the toddlers. In our day, we got turned on to our older brothers albums after they went to college and we got their room. And we were in our late teens.
We didn't get bombarded by Jimmy Page singing "Squeeze my Lemon" during the cereal commercials of the Bugs Bunny Hour, on Saturday morning.

Am I for real? Yes and I despise the whole damn culture for making me feel like the only one with half a brain in this county that saw where this was all going back then. Was I wrong? No, one of Katherine's pastimes is writing her hommies in prison, or perusing the Mug Shots websites.
It's not just her and her clique, almost the whole damn school from her time there are in dire straights and are not prepared to deal with society. They were tossed in the garbage by a society that felt what Fiddy Cent had to say to 13 year olds were more important than their education and their families right to keep them on the right path.

This was all the while No Child left behind was kicking in, and about the time, if you laid on little finger on your kid or put one hair out of place, you as a parent would find your self in a legal hell of out sourced Child Yankers and anger management, court cases all focusing on you as the parent. While none of these out source Child and Family services could give a rats ass how the Child was faring. There was no boot camp, there was no counseling, there was no tutors, just one ass hole after another showing up at your door, telling you to take your check book out.

Yeah I'm for real, and say "good for them", every time I hear about Censorship in the Asian countries.

Is my anger misguided perhaps, but there should be a lot more pissed off people. Especially a country that is so vocal about the literacy rate and the sad state of our youth in this country. Not everything is Bush's and Fat people's fault.

CaptainShuddup says

They were tossed in the garbage by a society

I hate hip hop too. Never got it, although some of the derivative stuff is interesting (red hot CP, rage against the machine).

Your emotions (and supposed reasoning) sound no different than parents of kids in 1972. Who were growing their hair long, smoking weed and in some cases going on to other drugs. Yes maybe latye teens more than early teens. So ?

Kids always want to be different than their parents. It's the nature of the human ego. It's not our fault that there was no way they would come up with rock that could compare to the 70s. (although early to mid 90s saw a little burst with alternative).

I understand how you feel. But your understanding is all confused with your right wing or redneck bias. But I know, it runs VERY deep. You can't help it any more than your daughter could help all the garbage ideas she was buying in to.

CaptainShuddup says

Is my anger misguided perhaps, but there should be a lot more pissed off people. Especially a country that is so vocal about the literacy rate and the sad state of our youth in this country. Not everything is Bush's and Fat people's fault.

Look, you can't blame dre or snoop for the hip hop values that went mainstream. It's like blaming marilyn manson for columbine. If you want freedom in society, you have to tolerate and accept things that you may strongly disagree with. Ultimately, if the parents have a good relationship with the kid, they can calmly explain their point of view about the values portrayed by aggressive hip hop and if they relate to their kids and are on respectful terms with each other, there's no reason why a kid or teen would have a need to "rebel" and listen to this music as an act of attention seeking.

Gang membership is good preparation for tribal cannibal anarchy.

Didn't humans spend most of the last 100,000 years in "gangs", i.e. tribes? Isn't that why we still think in terms of "us vs. them"?

CaptainShuddup says

CL says

Do you have any, ya know, FACTS to back that up?

Marco Rubio is a Cuban-American Florida Senator that was just elected with about 60% of the Latino vote.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/12/are-hard-line-cuban-americans-strong-as-ever/old-guard-are-reliable-voters-and-organized

The illegals vote Democrat, but not those with papers. That is why the Left is fighting Florida's right to purge the voters polls of dead and illegal voters so hard.

You're going to use Rubio as proof of your theory, and not as an outlier? He, of CUBAN descent in Florida and a candidate in the outlier 2010 elections?

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2010/11/03/the-latino-vote-in-the-2010-elections/

"Despite these big top-of-the-ticket wins for Republican Hispanic candidates, Democratic candidates won the Latino vote, usually by wide margins. For example, according to the national House exit poll,2 60% of Latino voters supported Democratic candidates in House races while 38% supported Republican candidates.

This majority support for Democratic candidates continues a pattern among Latino voters. In 2006, according to the national exit poll, 69% of Latinos voted for Democratic candidates in their Congressional district races, while 30% supported Republicans. In the 2008 presidential election, Latinos supported Democrat Barack Obama by a margin of more than two-to-one over Republican John McCain—67% versus 31% according to a Pew Hispanic Center analysis of the national exit poll (Lopez, 2008)."

Despite all this noise, Hispanics vote overwhelmingly Democratic in nearly every election.

CL says

Despite all this noise, Hispanics vote overwhelmingly Democratic in nearly every election.

and in reality the return for the votes have been shallow by the Dems Party... The Republicans do actually deliver successful hispanics who stand on their own.

"While support for the Democratic Party among Hispanics has remained strong, some Hispanic leaders have criticized the party for not doing enough to help Hispanic candidates move from city council, legislative and congressional seats to the party's highest elected offices. Former New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, a candidate in the 2008 U.S. Presidential election, has noted that victories by Hispanic Republican candidates in several key races during the 2010 election cycle, including Marco Rubio in Florida's U.S. Senate race and the elections of Brian Sandoval as Nevada's first Hispanic governor and Susana Martinez as the country's first Latina governor, have posed a significant challenge to the Democratic Party in retaining support among Hispanic and Latino voters. "Democrats have to recruit more Hispanic candidates and they have to start siding with Hispanics on redistricting and other issues," Richardson said, "because many Hispanics perceive the party doesn't care enough about electing more Hispanic officials."

Other Hispanic Democrats, including former DNC vice-chairwoman Linda Chavez-Thompson, have accused the party of taking Hispanic support for granted, and not doing enough to increase turnout among Latinos:
"I think for the longest time [the Democratic Party], including myself, automatically thought that if you were a Latino you voted Democrat," she said. "That’s not true anymore. We need to ramp up our Latino outreach. We can’t sit back and let the Republicans take votes because we don’t have a message for Latino voters." Chavez-Thompson, who ran an unsuccessful campaign for Lieutenant Governor of Texas in 2010, further stated that more money and effort needs to be spent by the Democratic Party and its supporters on targeted messaging, recruitment of Latino candidates, and voter outreach"

The division is over deportation of illegal aliens .. the reality is deporting back non-US citizens of foreign nations shouldnt be an issue. They are called illegal aliens because they entered the US without authorization and are subjects (citizens) of a foreign government. They are not subjects and jurisdiction of the US.

The terms hispanic and/or latino are about as bigoted as they get. Only PC tyrants and unics with no social interaction use those bigoted labels

Put a Spaniard, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Chilean, and a Cuban together and let them know you just how offensive they find it to be confused as one in the same. Its not that they don't get along, however most grew up being proud of their heritage, and lumping them together as if they are all similar because they speak similar variances of "Spanish" is the height of American ignorance

errc says

The terms hispanic and/or latino are about as bigoted as they get. Only PC tyrants and unics with no social interaction use those bigoted labels

Put a Spaniard, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Chilean, and a Cuban together and let them know you just how offensive they find it to be confused as one in the same. Its not that they don't get along, however most grew up being proud of their heritage, and lumping them together as if they are all similar because they speak similar variances of "Spanish" is the height of American ignorance

That doesn't matter for Demographics. Each Demographic may have different reasons for voting for the Democrats, yet they all do (except Cubans, and that is moving towards the Dems).

And, I've spoken to lots of Latinos of various flavors and have never encountered any who were offended by the term. Maybe they should be, or maybe it's a result of our Euro-centric structure, but they take no umbrage at their Euro roots. In fact, most of their societies have favored the folks who have more European ancestry.

thomas.wong1986 says

and in reality the return for the votes have been shallow by the Dems Party..

Even if that were so, it simply indicates that they do not feel welcome in today's racist GOP. They run to the Dems, at least partly due to the demonizing the GOP does to them.

Mexicans and Guatemalans find more in common than they do with a party that favors discrimination based on hue.

Papers, please.

marcus says

Kids always want to be different than their parents. It's the nature of the human ego. It's not our fault that there was no way they would come up with rock that could compare to the 70s. (although early to mid 90s saw a little burst with alternative).

It would be very very very interesting, if there was a Religious Cult or even a Christian zealot overtone in Pop music influencing kids from the age 10 to 16. It would very interesting to see the reverse of your average Liberal on your above sentiment. I would bet, a radio wouldn't be allowed with in 300 yards of a school. What separation of religion and all that. I would bet you wouldn't be allowed to play that music in a public park, or any public building for that matter, let alone at homes of these same people that see no problem with Thugs, Criminals, Pimps, Whores, Drug Addicts, and Murderers being the epitome of a "Small town Boy, done good". Just by talkin' shit.