patrick.net

honest answer: Either one will stay in good "clean" condition for a very long time these days due to less contamination from poor fueling systems and poor filtering.
BUT,
Today's oils have been robbed of Zink. That makes them suck.

Dan, since you seem like the real deal, here is the best advice I have for engine life:
1) Joe Gibbs Racing oil. I use XP3 in newer engines and in the winter, XP7 for summer and harder driving and engines with over 75K. The racing oil is the oil you want. It is not "thicker", it is better. It holds up to heat and has better shear (don't mind getting whipped by the crank)
2) NAPA "Gold" filters for air (every 6 months) and oil (6 months or 6,000) and fuel (every year). DO not run racing level filters. They have bigger mesh, not tighter. NAPA "Gold" has the tighter microns to catch more crap.
3) After a motor hits 100K, I run 1:4 ratio of Lucas Oil Stabilizer to JGR XP7 Oil.

If you live in a place that has lots of dust, adjust the air filter time. If you live in a place with huge climate changes or humidity, you may want to adjust fuel filter time. If you never suck dust and keep a clean air filter on it you can just change the oil filter at 3,000 and add the oil the filter losses and keep on going. The oil will not wear out, it will just get dirty.

Lots of people have snake oil tricks and such, but I bet there is a circle track near you. Go ask the guy that builds the fast enggines over there. Or, see what the Petty School is using at Disney. This Gibbs stuff is the real deal, and the EPA removed Zink from the daily driver stuff. Let me know if you get any better advice. I may be missing something.

I don't know of anything that will be a negative, other than cost, but Ebay has it at times.

I've been using mobile 1 synthetic, but I've read good things about royal purple. I don't mind the extra cost of synthetic. You change it less often so it comes out to about the same. Plus it cuts the oil you have to dispose of in half, and that's good for the environment, and you don't have to go as often to the oil change shop.

royal purple is good stuff.

I do not run good oil in my chain saw or my kids quad. My wife was over my shoulder and demanded I told you that. Yea, just like you imagine.

Bap33 says

oday's oils have been robbed of Zink. That makes them suck.

Todays oils have lower levels of zinc and phosphorus but it is still there. I think if you do a little research you will find this only matters for the extremely high loads of racing engines or with flat tappet pushrod motors, which are I believe totally extinct in newer cars. I can't think of any flat tappet motors currently on the market.

Pure racing oils are designed for racing engines in racing conditions not daily drivers. They are very low detergent and have high enough levels of zinc to kill some newer cat converters. Street engines very rarely run hard enough to get hot enough to burn out contaminants, so having detergent is critical. Why not use Joe Gibbs street formulations?

I run good quality non synthetic oil with 3k changes. I regularly get 300k+ out of my cars, which I never buy new. I do use Red Line synthetic for trans, rears, power steering, as well as water wetter in the coolant.

I didn't suggest the street stuff because I have never tried it. That would be chicken shit to suggest something I have never used, in my opinion.

You may be right about everything I said being wrong for Dan. I own all American V8's. I did limit my advice to personal hands-on, absolute facts from life though. And, until I read otherwize in the publications I subscribe to, I will continue to think that motors like lead in the gas and zink in the oil. lol

I read that water wetter didn't help cooling, only helped the allum rads from chalking up. I ran the pink balls for awhile, but now I just run 50/50 and add about 8oz of machinest oil to lube the pump shaft.

Dan8267 says

Now, I know that synthetic oil lasts longer, but what about staying clean? I've heard from some people that synthetic oil stays clean longer due to its chemistry and dirt absorption capabilities, but I've heard others say that all oil should be replaced every 3,000 miles and that synthetic gets dirty just as fast as natural.

How many engine failure law suits can you find due to use of improper type of oil ? How many motors have you EVER destroyed (or heard of ) and attributed to lack of oil servicing ? (fear sells synthetic)
Oil never breaks down. Oil only takes on carbon by blowing past the rings and takes on miniscule amounts of dust in very dusty conditions if your crankcase ventilation system has no filter. Engineering and tolerances held on modern engines means no mechanical wear would be found even if you NEVER changed the oil. (NOT ADVISING)
50% of the population swears their is a God. 100% swear they need to change oil every 3000 miles .... WHY ??? Marketing.
Whatever happened to that movie... Supposedly Danny De Vito marketing a new vitamin. Simply stating convincing the masses that if they did not buy his product, they would get cancer and die.
Synthetic oil manufacturers have convinced the masses the exact same way. The public even ignores evidence PROVING there are NO advantages other than it does not congeal below 32 degrees.
Automotive marketing is the worst as far as deceptive advertising goes. Air filters that breath better, spark plugs that spark harder, glove boxes that give better fuel mileage. Faster headlights & smoother muffler bearings can all be found on the aisle next to the blinker fluid. It could ALL be sold.
But I have tested Slick 50 in Taxi cabs, Race Cars, motorcycles etc. It was also tested and approved by the FAA. Who ya gonna trust ?
But no big surprise. It is teflon, it reduces friction. Best test : pull coil wire, crank engine measure cranking rpm. Treat engine with Slick 50. Pull coil wire again check new cranking rpm.

All oils are typical except wax based supermarket off brands.
http://www.viragotech.com/fixit/AllAboutOil.html

Bap33 says

I will continue to think that motors like lead in the gas and zink in the oil. lol

Lead is terrible for motors. Going to unleaded was the best thing that ever happened, I was thrilled when it happened. Having a motor last more than 100k running leaded was pretty uncommon. It fouls the rings and eats up the bearings. I rebuilt enough friends engines to know. The only thing lead was good for was raising octane cheaply.

Unless your American v8 still runs flat tappet lifters (pre 90's) then the amount of zinc just doesn't matter.

Sad but true. The last time I took a car to Jiffy, when I got home I noticed one of the tires looked low on air. So I went through the check list and found half the stuff checked off was not done.

Worst part, my air filter was ripped part. They would have let me drive around like that instead of replacing a part they destroyed inspecting.

Great marketing, horrible service. Never been back to any of these lube shops. I am a DIY most of the time now.

elliemae says

Years ago my brother worked for econolube. All of these shops are run the same way - they have a quota per car that they have to meet or the manager is fired. The quota requires that extra work be charged for - but (wink wink nudge nudge) not necessarily completed.

Eschew Obfuscation

I once took a job at a Jiffy Lube, and this article concurs with my experience there. I left at the second week.

Another dishonest gig is the Carpet cleaning business. You answer those any (numerical value) rooms steam cleaned for (a too good to be true price).
The trick is, the rooms are on steam cleaned only no soap no soil emulsifier or anything that would do diddely squat to clean your carpet.

But before they even start, they'll pick the most heavily traffic area in your house like a hall way, and give you a demonstration of the difference in the cleaning mentioned in the ad, vs a good deep cleaning.
They put shampoo in the machine, and pretreat a spot about 10 by 12 in your hallway. And when they are done, that patch of carpet will look brand spanking new. Then they'll clean a spot next to it that doesn't do anything to clean the carpet.

But at this point, you have a noticeable clean spot in your carpet that makes the rest of the carpet seem even dirtier than otherwise look.
If not for this bright clean spot in you carpet in a highly visible pathway. You probably would other wise go with the cheap steam cleaning.

But now, to get the rest of your carpet clean, or at least in a state where you don't have a noticeable inverted stain in your carpet. You'll pay three times more than if you called another company out for the same cleaning.

My newer car, I change at 5000, my gfriends newer SUV, changes at 7500. I won't go to these oil change places, they give you cheap oil, cheap filter, and they over torque the filter and the crankcase plug making both more difficult to remove the next time, sometimes even ruining the crankcase plug, or stripping out the threads. For less money than they charge, I can get an OEM filter, and run synthetic oil. I don't mind doing it myself.

I've never patronized a Jiffy Lube or any similar place. From what I can tell, they do try to upsell then only sometimes actually replace a part with only the cheapest part that China can supply. Parts so bad that even Autozone or Advance Auto won't sell them. Like all their crappy Chinese oil and air filters. I shudder to think what I will see when I remove when I finish with this car.

Use the dealer? WTF?

I took my car to the dealer because it was under warranty. My exhaust cam sensor needed to be replaced. It took them FIVE visits before it was fixed.

There was a rattle; it took them several tries before it was fixed - and it was only found because it was recalled (spacers needed to be put in the front panel).

I spent quite a bit of time in that dealership - they were the absolute worst. My ex-brother in law was a mechanic at a dealership and they used to joke about the rates they charged.

The only reason to go to a dealer is - well, there isn't one. unless of course, you have tones of money and don't feel like throwing it out the window instead.

@patrick

I just had an idea of how you might bring in more traffic. Have user reviews of local services and products. Kind of like Angie's List but without having to pay. I'd trust a product review more if I had some knowledge of the poster from a long history of discussing different things. That way I'd be more confident he's not a salesman or bot.

Thanks! But there's that big chicken-and-egg problem with it: people won't look reviews here until there are a lot, and they won't write them unless they know there's a big audience for them.

I wanted to do the same thing with the Open House Reviews section, but it's similarly hard to get that going. Let me know if you have ideas on kick-starting these things.

bob,
totally not argueing with you. You win. I give. You are lord of all things oil!! lol ... anyways, "I think" the lead lubes the valve face, and when it went away the heads needed hardened seats. That and pre-ignition knock are the only things lead helped, I think. As for any negatives, lead did/does nothing to the bearings in the 20+ years and several different combos of engines I have been running leaded gas in, on and off highway applications. I've ran leaded av-gas too, just to get the higher octane, with no side effects. I have no idea why you had a bearing issue and connected it to the fuel used (?), but strange stuff happens. Getting away from carbs was the best way to reduse fouled oil and bearings, in my opinion. What happens when the EPA finds out that the chem they replaced lead with is causing cancer or colitas?

my 350's from '89 and '92 are cammed the exact same as all 350's ever were. No rollers. The head design changed in 88 or so, but bolt right up to the 1970 blocks. I think some performance (LT or Vette) cars got rollers first, in like 89 or something, and the trucks didn't get them until the Vortec heads came around in like '95 or so. The modern blocks are a tricky bunch. Some are drilled to take the roller spider and the cam plate, but they are also missing the hole for the fuel pump rod. Kinda like the old marine blocks didn't have it either. The LS in the Yukon is an odd bird and may be rollerized. I have not tore one down yet. I hope I never have to.

For the record, I don't care if I have a hard cam, a bronze distributer gear, and a rabbit's foot .. I still want zink in there to cushion the blow. And lead to keep the valves and pistons happy.

My application is personal, as is yours, Dan is not an idiot, he'll make a good choice. I build these mice to run fast and last. EPA and CARB is big brother intrusive horseshit. They make rules with unlimited power and zero accountability. Hate that. Just as bad as IRS and the friggin ACLU. (don't flame me, I'm just popping off)

all chain style quick lube places may not suck, but the demographic they attract as workers have no business touching anything I own.

Bap33 says

all chain style quick lube places may not suck, but the demographic they attract as workers have no business touching anything I own.

I agree with Bap33!

I sent this to a friend who takes their car into one of these chain outfits, all they said was "OK I'll stay away from Jiffy Lube". They didn't proceed to the obvious conclusion that it's probably not unique to that chain.

As the son of an Auto Mechanic and shop owner, I urge all patrick.net members to change their oil regularly. It stuns me how many people plop down 40K on a new car and quibble about the price of an oil change. Most shops including my dads, oil changes are priced at break even. It's still more expensive than jiffy whatever, but an adult will inspect your car and not try and charge you for putting nitrogen in your tires. Find a shop that has a good reputation and specializes in your make of vehicle.

Also don't buy the twin turbocharged all wheel drive version of whatever, your pocket book and mechanic will thank you.

I've always changed my own oil. I think I might have taken my truck to a place once. Anyway, frequency is key. I change mine every 3,000 miles on the dot. Is it necessary? Probably not. But for example I have a 17 year old Toyota truck that's got a little over 250,000 miles on it. I've owned it since new and have always changed the oil every 3,000 miles. The result is that I can remove the filler cap and the underside of the cap is perfectly clean and there's no gunk under the valve cover. The pistons all show factory spec compression. Basically the engine shows hardly any wear and despite its age and mileage could probably go another 250,000 miles no problem.

I have always only used the absolute cheapest oil and oil filters. Just conventional "dino" oil. Again- its about frequency. Doesn't matter if its cheap oil so long as it gets changed more frequently.

I'd also say that changes in emmision and crankcase ventilation systems have helped oil do its job longer and better. For example I also own a 55' Ford Fairlane. Its not a trailer queen and last had an engine overhaul 25 years ago. It doesn't use any oil, but seeing as how the car is "My baby", I change the oil probably every 500-1000 miles. The oil that comes out at change time looks absolutely filthy. Way dirtier than the oil that comes out of the Toyota. Then again the Ford has barely what I'd call a crankcase ventilation system: it has a simple PCV valve that re-feeds the gasses right back into the carburetor. The truck on the other hand has a sophisticated ventilation system and thus the oil stays cleaner.

If you have the 272 in Henry's sedan, it will outlast us all.

Vicente says

I agree with Bap33!

I'm saving this quote to use elsewhere, when it shall be super cool! lol

Changing oil too often (500 miles) is a good way to screw an engine, as oil is very acidic until you have over 500 miles on it. Changing the oil ridiculously often can screw your engine via the acidity that never goes away.

Bap33 says

bob,
totally not argueing with you. You win. I give. You are lord of all things oil!! lol ...

I don't want to be the king of anything. I said very plainly that if you were running flat tappets you would need zinc. That doesn't make low zinc oils suck, it just makes them incorrect for your application, which was my point that you seemed to have missed.

If you want to run race oils without detergent or avgas then go for it. it's your money. Avgas 100 (green) or 100 ll (low lead blue) will run up to about 13:1, but you need to change jets because Avgas is less dense than racing gas (6.3vs5.8 lbs per gallon roughly). Even with changing jets 100ll blue gives crappy throttle response because of high aromatics. If you could find it 115 (purple) it would be a bad choice. The lead content is so high your plugs won't last very long. Airplane engines that used purple had very special plugs and they got changed a lot.

Yes lead lubed the valve seats, but this was more a theoretical problem than practical for street cars.They just don't run hard enough long enough to cause problems. For airplanes and race cars it mattered a lot however. I ran Amoco (american) white gas (which was unleaded) for years before unleaded became mandated on a wide variety of high performance cars and never saw a valve seat chewed up. My SS/B 67 mustang saw hundreds of runs down the dragstrip every year without a problem on white gas and it had the sodium filled exhaust valves.

Lead (actually lead oxide) fouls the oil and will crap up bearings, as well as lots of other things, if you didn't change oil religiously. Dibromoethane was added to leaded gas to convert the lead oxide to lead bromide which went out the exhaust. That was why exhaust systems didn't last very long in the good old days. Not all lead oxide got converted and some always ended up in the oil. I haven't seen a spun bearing in a sub 100k car since unleaded was phased in, it wasn't unusual at all before that.

More interesting is that the average blood levels of lead dropped from 16ug/dl in 1976 to 3 ug/dl in 1991 in the united states. TEL levels above 10ug/dl are considered elevated enough to affect health, IQ, and antisocial behavior. There is strong evidence the drop in violent crime in the 90's is directly tied to this drop in blood levels of TEL.

Something to think about when lamenting the good old days.

Just search the internet for Jiffy Lube Sucks and you will find plenty of reading material.

It is a no brainer to run synthetic for a keeper car.
Superior wear strength, cold start (viscosity) and higher operating temperature over conventional oils.
A turbo runs at >400F, will kill conven oil - cokes it on after the engine is off. It is like cholesterol to turbos. Syn oil takes 450+ and stays on the job. Cold starts and high temp are the oil (and engine) killers.
If Porsches and Corvettes require it for warranty, I trust there engineers did their homework.

unstoppable says

Also don't buy the twin turbocharged all wheel drive version of whatever, your pocket book and mechanic will thank you.

I think you mean your mechanic will thank you for owning one. Mine is 18yrs old and I drive it all the time.
I never take it to a mechanic, it is a hobby.
Make a hard run at night and open the hood, the turbos glow red! The heat kills batteries too.

Zlxr says

In one case the gasket (looks like a washer) had a pinhole in it and the oil only came out while the car was driving. Luckily they kind of smelled the difference when the car stopped - and noticed that the car was running warmer and even though there could have been damage - the car lasted a long time afterwards.

However, unless you want to buy a whole new engine I would recommend you not go to such places. It's not worth it.

Best advice you'll hear today.

I have one guy with his own shop that my cars go to. No issues ever.

marco says

Changing oil too often (500 miles) is a good way to screw an engine, as oil is very acidic until you have over 500 miles on it. Changing the oil ridiculously often can screw your engine via the acidity that never goes away.

You've got it bass akwards. Oil accumulates acids and contaminants the longer its in the engine.

hey folks, this is a good read about oil: http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html

Wow, watching this made me want to scream! I think I'll just take the bus

bob, everyone used white gas, added a little Marvel Mystery oil to lube the upper end, and even tossed in mothballs for power. Crazy guys even tipped the N can with white gas. But, Marvel was added to lube the top side in my world. Heck, I still put some MMO in the fuel

Spun bearings back in the day had as much to do with the casting and machining of parts, plus the bearing materials of the day, as they did the oils, pumps, and filters of the day, in my opinion. THe more tech that came from racing to the street, the better stuff got. For a SBC, the common spun rod bearing was all but eliminated with good cap bolts and a good torq wrench and a good re-size job. A main bearing that swaps sides and gets really wide and really thin normally happens after a crank and saddle have been FUBAR.

To the GM credit, lets keep in mind what a dealer delivered 69 Z-28 with the 302 could do. A very impressive motor. Smokey's 427 is not a bad motor either.

I see this electric car, non-American Muscle push of today, and it reminds me of the same liberal shit that resulted in the Pinto getting to carry the Cobra and the Mustang badges. A sad sad day for Henry.

Vicente says

I agree with Bap33!

I think that's the first time that's ever happened. History made.

marco says

Changing oil too often (500 miles) is a good way to screw an engine, as oil is very acidic until you have over 500 miles on it. Changing the oil ridiculously often can screw your engine via the acidity that never goes away.

After changing oil, I notice that on the first startup the oil pressure light takes longer to turn off than on normal starts. I guess this is because it takes some time for the oil pump and filter to refill. I try to oil up the filter before reinstalling but it's not perfect. Theoretically I could disconnect the spark plugs and crank the engine a few times, but that seems like overkill. My car gets the oil changed about once per year (every 8000 miles) so that additional wear is minor.

So, changing oil too frequently might add some additional wear. OTOH it's probably negligible, especially in the case where one might change the oil every 1000 miles; a car that's rarely used, and gets the oil changed by months not miles. Leaving used oil in for too long isn't good either, even if the car is not run frequently; water can build up due to condensation or combustion byproducts.

Yeah, I have to say that Dealers aren't necessarily better. I had a Mercedes dealer essentially ruin my transmission - and it wasn't even what they were supposed to be working on. Got them to buy the car from me as compensation.

And a Honda dealer recently failed to seat/tighten the drain plug properly... noticed oil leaking onto my driveway and garage. Luckily hadn't lost enough oil to damage the engine.

Had a Toyota dealer once leave a screw driver in my engine compartment!

kt1652 says

Also don't buy the twin turbocharged all wheel drive version of whatever, your pocket book and mechanic will thank you.
I think you mean your mechanic will thank you for owning one. Mine is 18yrs old and I drive it all the time.
I never take it to a mechanic, it is a hobby.
Make a hard run at night and open the hood, the turbos glow red! The heat kills batteries too.

Believe it or not most mechanics want to see their customers happy, having to explain to a guy that it takes 7 hours of labor to change a timing belt on your amg,m3,rs whatever, because you have to drop the front suspension assembly, is not fun.

I worked for a transmission company to do repairs and service and on many of the transmissions the problems were mostly fouled up filters or a small leak which lowered there fluids causing the transmission fron functioing properly. Once in a while the bands in the transmission had to be adjusted to help the transmission to opperate smoother.If we had a transmission that was not working at all we would send it out for further tests to see if it could be rebuild or the purchase of a new one.
A newq manager took over the shop and on my first day working for him a woman drove in with a problem of the tranny was slipping in and out of drive which I discovered was a low fluid problem but the manager told me to drop the tranny on the floor which would ruin it so he could sell a new tranny to the woman only thing was that the new tranny was not new it was rebuild by his brother that owned a shop that rebuilds trannies.
I needed the job so I did what he asked and after a few days I felt so guilty I quit but not until I got the ladies address and phone no. and told her what happened.

SiO2 says

After changing oil, I notice that on the first startup the oil pressure light takes longer to turn off

Distress reports from General Aviation pilots increase after sunset.
BUT, Metal to metal contact is to be avoided at all costs. Slick 50 saved my assets on several occasions. Cold starting, or starting with a dry filter is slick 50s biggest advantage. The teflon coating on all metal friction surfaces avoids the inadvertent welding.
For $22 every 50k miles, it's like a sore pecker. Ya can't beat it !

slin says

it was rebuild by his brother that owned a shop that rebuilds trannies.

You mean he did addadicktomes ?
Atta boy Slin. Don't think confessing one sin will get you into heaven. You got a way to go. Me too. At One of my first jobs at a fillin station.
My hours were cut because I would not "short stick" the customers to sell oil. Or use a "razor ring" to sell fanbelts.

>

Lead in paint was also outlawed at this same time( lead of course was added to paint in the 40's after biodegradable hempseed oil was outlawed).

And yet some people want to get rid of the EPA?

Slick50 - just use a good oil and change at recommended intervals until warranty runs out. Then do whatever you want, it's your car. But I'd stay away from magic additives.

TMAC54 says

SiO2 says

After changing oil, I notice that on the first startup the oil pressure light takes longer to turn off

The teflon coating on all metal friction surfaces avoids the inadvertent welding.

Who is the honest looking fellow in the picture, is that the evil shop manager or is that you? :-)
My wife had a similar experience, her contour, (sigh, I know) tranny died. Probably due to non-adjstble bone head bands.
So the shop sold her a new tranny. When she picked the car, the drive indicator was so poorly aligned it was like on R.
The shop mngr offered to add a "light" to go on when it is in D!
She being sowhat non-assertive to manly hw just drove it with the light until she bought a new corolla.

slin says

I needed the job so I did what he asked and after a few days I felt so guilty I quit but not until I got the ladies address and phone no. and told her what happened.