patrick.net

nw888 says

Why is working hard and not being an entitled trust fund kid of the government such a hard pill to swallow?

It isn't at all. However, I find it absolutely hard to believe that you are a self made part of the 1% without any help from the government. The government is such a large % of overall economic activity that it is hard to believe. You mentioned being business owner.

1. You have no government (state, local, federal) contracts?
2. None of your customers receive any type of government assistance (FHA construction loans, SBA business loans, general public welfare, etc.)
3. The services you provide are not regulated by the government (medicine, law, telecom, etc?) Barriers similar to those in these industries prevent commodization of services.
4. You have no government protected intellectual property rights?
5. You access no public highways in the course of doing business?
6. None of your employees are eligible for the EIC?

If you can honestly answer yes to the above questions, that would be something I would love to know more about. What you would be saying is that you have a business that has a low barrier of entry, affluent-only customers, little red tape, no transportation requirements, no innovation or invention requirements, and skilled employees.

I would guess your skilled employees (who all attended private schools without federal student loans) would simply break off from your business and start their own if there really was no barrier to entry though...

If all of those are true though, please let me know what your business does!! I am very interested in purchasing franchise rights.

nw888 says

I think people in the US have many opportunities to make it today. Everyone one of us is truly lucky to be born in a nation where we have choices. Imagine being born in Africa or China in some remote location, where you will never be able to live out your dreams.

Yes, the US is a lucky place to be born, but not the most lucky place to be born -- depending on what socioeconomic status you are born into.

"The findings from cross-country research challenge the traditional
view of the United States as a land with more mobility and opportunity than other countries.

While cross-country comparisons of relative mobility rely on data and methodologies that are far from perfect, a growing number of economic studies have found that the United States stands out as having less, not more, intergenerational mobility than do Canada and several European countries. American children are more likely than other children to end up in the same place on the income distribution as their parents. Moreover, there is emerging evidence that mobility is particularly low for Americans born into families at the bottom of the earnings or income distribution."

http://www.brookings.edu/reports/2008/~/media/CFF85818FBB34CF695503470B623EB31.ashx

nw888 says

...I see entitlement and laziness every day. It' in my family, some of my friends, my wife's family and friends...It's all around. There is a problem in this country, and while many people work very hard, there are many people that are used to "getting by", with the help of the government (taxpayer) of course. These people can get out and hustle more than they do to get off unemployment, or put in the extra days and nights to take their career to the next level. They don't, and they complain about how miserable their life is because they can't afford this and that. They're lucky, and they don't even know it.

Yes, this can be annoying. However, it is preferable to having your friends and family working 80 hrs a week, under deplorable conditions, because their alternative is to starve.

We can not expect everybody to be self motivated go-getters; not everyone can become a leader of industry. In the US the go-getters are not as likely to increase their social economic position as they are in many European countries.

nw888 says

I think that a lot of people in this country take their luck for granted.

I agree, but this happens on both ends of the economic ladder. People like Trump and Romeny often feel like they are self-made while then remain blind to the luck of their birth and the advantages that being born to wealth gave them.

david1 says

It isn't at all. However, I find it absolutely hard to believe that you are a self made part of the 1% without any help from the government. The government is such a large % of overall economic activity that it is hard to believe. You mentioned being business owner.

I think that Elizabeth Warren said it pretty well:
"I hear all this, you know, ‘Well, this is class warfare, this is whatever,’ No. There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own — nobody.

You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police-forces and fire-forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory — and hire someone to protect against this — because of the work the rest of us did.

Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”

david1 says

I would guess your skilled employees (who all attended private schools without federal student loans) would simply break off from your business and start their own if there really was no barrier to entry though...

Are you implying that just because an employee borrowed money from the government to get an education, the government has helped the business owner that hires that person?

I help design theme parks and movies. My work contributes to raising investment capital to fund their operations and get the projects greenlit.

To my knowledge, no one I deal with is backed by the government. With your guidelines, though, no person is self made in this country.

When I say self made, I mean that I have built a business from the ground up. I started with nothing. Used to be dirt poor and worked hard and built it. I was a worker that got shafted by a company, and decided to begin my own company.

leoj707 says

Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”

I couldn't agree more. It's the attitude of "we built the roads so you could make money" that's a problem with me. People take too much credit for other's success.

As an example I overheard once: "If I didn't buy this Iphone, where would Apple be? It's because of people like me they're so rich!" Really? Okay. Some people like to flatter themselves. The world filled with mutualism. But hey, whatever.

david1 says

I would guess your skilled employees (who all attended private schools without federal student loans) would simply break off from your business and start their own if there really was no barrier to entry though...

Are you implying that just because an employee borrowed money from the government to get an education, the government has helped the business owner that hires that person?

I help design theme parks and movies. My work contributes to raising investment capital to fund their operations and get the projects greenlit.

To my knowledge, no one I deal with is backed by the government. With your guidelines, though, no person is self made in this country.

When I say self made, I mean that I have built a business from the ground up. I started with nothing. Used to be dirt poor and worked hard and built it. I was a worker that got shafted by a company, and decided to begin my own company.

leoj707 says

Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”

I couldn't agree more. It's the attitude of "we built the roads so you could make money" that's a problem with me. People take too much credit for other's success. If anything, the business has most likely paid so many employees that then pay income tax, along with sales tax, along with the corporate taxes, that they've in fact contributed to most of the roads being built.

As an example I overheard once: "If I didn't buy this Iphone, where would Apple be? It's because of people like me they're so rich!" Really? Okay. Some people like to flatter themselves. The world filled with mutualism. But hey, whatever.

nw888 says

It's the attitude of "we built the roads so you could make money" that's a problem with me. People take too much credit for other's success.

I don't think that it is so much people wanting to take credit for others success, but wanting the successful to acknowledge that their success did not happen in a vacuum.

nw888 says

If anything, the business has most likely paid so many employees that then pay income tax, along with sales tax, along with the corporate taxes, that they've in fact contributed to most of the roads being built.

Well, putting aside that the largest corporations don't seem to be paying any taxes; yeah, that is the way it is supposed to work. The success stories roll money back into the system so that opportunity is there to create more success stories.

Before a "little guy" can be successful he needs a stable system that can help facilitate his/her success. The roads, educations, police, small business loans, etc. have already been in place decades before day 1 of someone's new business.

nw888 says

As an example I overheard once: "If I didn't buy this Iphone, where would Apple be? It's because of people like me they're so rich!" Really? Okay. Some people like to flatter themselves. The world filled with mutualism. But hey, whatever.

Yeah, it is silly for someone to make that comment. like they had a hand in designing the iPhone. However, they are correct in that without them -- and a million other iAcolytes -- Apple would not exist.

If you have ever been to a rock concert I am sure you have heard, "We love our Fans! without them we would not be where we are today!", etc. It seems that rock concerts are the only places where there are public decelerations in appreciation of how others contributed to the successful.

American in Japan says

How will the candidate of your choice be an improvement over Obama? What policies will be implemented...? Please be specific. I have my criticisms of Obama , incidentally, but I want to know who is better and why.

Ron Paul. Half his ideas are crazy, but those half don't stand a chance of being implemented. Nevertheless, he'll veto all tyrannical legislation like the NDAA, SOPA, PIPA, etc. He'll end the wars and the secret prisons, drone attacks on civilians, government kill lists of U.S. citizens, and torture. He'll say no to just about everything the scumbag Republicans and scumbag Democrats try to pass.

Absent Ron Paul, voting for a Republican, even one worse than Obama, serves the purpose of making sure the next Democrat doesn't do the shit that Obama has done. Having a crappy Republican like Romney or Gingrich in office for the next four years is less evil than rewarding Obama for the evil he has done. We're going to have presidents for quite a few years past 2016, so we have to make sure they are held accountable for their actions even if it means accepting a worse administration in the short term.

I like some things about Ron Paul... The media is playing him down though.

I am for some basic health care system which he is against, but he is for cutting military spending...

American in Japan says

I am for some basic health care system which he is against

True, but none of the politicians are going to do crap about health care anyway. Best hope for health care is Elizabeth Warren and William Black running in 2016.

I'm watching Gingrich make a fool of himself on CNN.

(Let's bring back $2.00/gallon gasoline...)

EightBall says

No, I'm saying that the fact that they can mandate this that they can mandate just about anything.
…
Why are we giving such a small group of people carte blanche? Is this not extending the ability to "legislate" to non-legislators? Is this the right solution to our problem?
…
I am guessing that we disagree that the current law is ceding our rights and freedoms to a small cabal that today is left-leaning

I think if you had no problem with the Patriot Act or any number of other recent laws regarding the TSA, warrantless searches, police collusion against OWS, predator drone approvals, Virgina's attempts to mandate intrusive screening procedures... but THIS point is where you claim to draw the line against attacks on "our rights and freedoms" then your stated position is farcical. Though I'm not inclined to - if you point me to the text of the specific law you're referring to I'll give you an honest appraisal if I think it is "ceding" ""our rights and freedoms".

And let me ask you because I'm a little unclear and very curious: Who exactly are you referring to when you say "Is this not extending the ability to "legislate" to non-legislators?" Are you referring to legal decisions made by the judges? Are you falling back to the old and ridiculous 'activist judges' label simply because you disagree with some of their decisions?

EightBall says

The fact that they are women has nothing to do with this as you duly note. I find it difficult to understand that anyone would think they were centrist or right leaning.

Typo. I meant to write 'left' leaning. In the landscape of 'US American' politics they are left leaning. Makes no difference to what I wrote earlier.

And just so we're clear - no, I think you do have issues with women. I think a thread of your commentary is focused on attacking or expressing discomfort with women and specifically issues & decisions that empower women.

EightBall says

My point, however, is that there are only two choices and often one must weigh the lesser or two evils and even with my bad example you likely understand why I would make one choice over the other.
…
We can only hope that something organic develops in this void as this is where most people's reality exists - but I'm not holding my breath that's for sure.

Yeah well I guess we differ on the definition of "evil" then don't we. As it currently stands it seems to me that you have no problems with things like TSA abuses of power, warrantless searches, wire tapping, police collusion against OWS, predator drone approvals, Virgina's attempts to mandate intrusive screening procedures… but you do DRAW THE LINE at some poor people getting a contraceptive now and then and claim this is the ruling thats stripping us of 'our rights and freedoms'. Have I got that correct? I think its a good read on my part, and as I say I think your moral compass is pretty screwed at this point.

For one more thing, if you're claiming democrats are 'marching toward the left' when at this point Obama is arguably basically Bush's third term in so many policies then again, really, its time for a reality check. What I do think is that you're not really arguing any policy issues or even care what they are, its just that your team is on the out right now and you're scrabbling to justify and find reasons to support your 'heartfelt' opinion.

But I guess thats understandable when all the people you currently want to put back in power are doing exactly the same thing. Did you watch the debate the other night? Man, what a farce that was. Here's Matt Taibbi's take on it, which I THINK is pretty much accurate: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/arizona-debate-conservative-chickens-come-home-to-roost-20120223?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

Dan8267 says

Absent Ron Paul, voting for a Republican, even one worse than Obama, serves the purpose of making sure the next Democrat doesn't do the shit that Obama has done. Having a crappy Republican like Romney or Gingrich in office for the next four years is less evil than rewarding Obama for the evil he has done. We're going to have presidents for quite a few years past 2016, so we have to make sure they are held accountable for their actions even if it means accepting a worse administration in the short term.

But their positions on so many issues are exactly the same!

You're all for 'punishing' Obama but certainly seem just fine with similar policy actions when they were undertaken by Bush or want to be continued by one of the republican candidates.

I'll say to you exactly what I said to the previous person: You're not really arguing any policy issues or even care what they are, its just that your team is on the out right now and you're scrabbling to justify and find reasons to support your 'heartfelt' opinion.

kentm says

As it currently stands it seems to me that you have no problems with things like TSA abuses of power, warrantless searches, wire tapping, police collusion against OWS, predator drone approvals, Virgina's attempts to mandate intrusive screening procedures

I have a problem with those as well. All of them.

kentm says

Who exactly are you referring to when you say "Is this not extending the ability to "legislate" to non-legislators?"

HHS of course...

kentm says

And just so we're clear - no, I think you do have issues with women. I think a thread of your commentary is focused on attacking or expressing discomfort with women and specifically issues & decisions that empower women.

You are foolishly and myopically focusing on something you agree with (which is fine I don't pretend to feel the need for everyone to agree with me) and turning a blind eye to the bigger picture. When the Virginia ultrasound dong proposal is foisted upon the entire nation by HHS Secretary NeoConNutjob, will you then open your eyes as to why allowing HHS to control and enforce fiat choices upon all of us?

Ron Paul easily looks like the best out of this lot...

Anyway, I haven't voted for a Republican since Bob Dole ran for president in 1996.

leoj707 says

"The findings from cross-country research challenge the traditional
view of the United States as a land with more mobility and opportunity than other countries.
While cross-country comparisons of relative mobility rely on data and methodologies that are far from perfect, a growing number of economic studies have found that the United States stands out as having less, not more, intergenerational mobility than do Canada and several European countries. American children are more likely than other children to end up in the same place on the income distribution as their parents. Moreover, there is emerging evidence that mobility is particularly low for Americans born into families at the bottom of the earnings or income distribution."

Who wants to be a geeky Engineer or Accountant which pays well. We have plenty of educational institutions to provide the knowledge to be in such careers, but who wants to be a Geek! Being successful is not pretty.

rdm says

While for many a 20 dollar co pay for a test or 500 a year for birth control may seem a small amount of money for the working poor it is not.

The mandate is enforced upon the employer, so the employee isnt poor if they have a job.

It looks likely that Romney will be the Republican candidate. For those who plan to vote Republican, what are your thoughts?

Romney is a robot for the top 0.1% and Corporate America. Obama hasn't stood up to the big banks. Democrats are supposed to be the ones that stand up to Big Business, and Obama has not. And ObamaCare is a joke.

I'll probably sit this election out. Elections don't matter...it's all about the money.

I have some inspiration for a new post thanks!

kentm says

You're all for 'punishing' Obama but certainly seem just fine with similar policy actions when they were undertaken by Bush or want to be continued by one of the republican candidates.

I'll say to you exactly what I said to the previous person: You're not really arguing any policy issues or even care what they are, its just that your team is on the out right now and you're scrabbling to justify and find reasons to support your 'heartfelt' opinion.

I've called for Bush to be hung as a war criminal. He and the Republican's aren't my team, as you would clearly get if you read any of my posts on them.

I still stand by my statement. It is better to pay a short-term cost of having a Republican, even Romney in office than to pay a far longer-term cost of letting the Democrats become exactly like the Republicans. It's called game theory. And I have yet to hear a good counter-argument to this statement.

But if you want to talk issues, I'm more than willing to do that. I reserve the right to criticize both Obama and Bush in great detail. It's not mutually exclusive.

I was hoping to actually get some good arguments here. With Romney in the forefront, how many Republicans will come out and vote for him, how many will write in a candidate and how many will simply stay home ?...

Romney will shift the TRILLIONS saved from closing down the Planned Parenthood AbortionPlex, right into constructing a Mormon Temple on the National Mall. It's the right thing to do, and makes him clearly superior to Santorum or any of the other failed challengers.

Dan8267 says

It is better to pay a short-term cost of having a Republican, even Romney in office than to pay a far longer-term cost of letting the Democrats become exactly like the Republicans. It's called game theory. And I have yet to hear a good counter-argument to this statement.

I am in the same boat a you in-that I have been pretty disappointed in several things that Obama has done. However...

1. I don't think that the Democrats are going to learn the lesson that you hope. I doubt loosing the election to the Republicans is going to teach Democrats that they need to be less like the Republicans in order to win elections. More likely their thought process will be, "...Hmmm... a Republican won... that must be what people want, to win we need to be more like Republicans."

2. I don't know that a Romney presidency would be just a short-term cost. Today we are living with some large issues that started with Republican presidencies over 30 years ago. Things seem to go in a cycle where Republicans in power funnel money and power to the wealthy, and Democrats just maintain whatever system was left to them -- maybe roll it back a little bit. So much wealth and power has been concentrated in a few hands that I am not sure we can roll it back if we go through one more Republican presidency. However, with the way Obama has been handling things I don't know if it matters too much.

I don't know if these are so much "counter-arguments" as they are concerns with the stated logic of voting a Republican at this point.

leoj707 says

is going to teach Democrats that they need to be less like the Republicans

My impression is that politicians are good at only one thing: figuring out how to stay in office. If the demographics are right, a message can be sent that in order to stay in office, you have to respect the rights of the citizens.

Ideally a third party would win the presidency, but that's not going to happen due to the screwed up elections we hold. Over 200 years, and our country still hasn't figured out how to run elections. Pathetic.

Vicente says

Planned Parenthood AbortionPlex

Ah, The Onion. Always hilarious!

There really isn't much difference between Romney and Obama on "social" issues and health care.

There's even an Onion story about Romney using a time-machine to go back and kill the liberal version of himself.

The only difference is that Romney still believes in protecting and enriching the aristocracy at the expense of everyone else.

I'll probably sit this election out. It's all about the money anyway. K-Street money is what matters, not votes.

wthrfrk80 says

I'll probably sit this election out. It's all about the money anyway. K-Street money is what matters, not votes.

Well... votes are what matter, it is just that people are significantly more susceptible to propaganda than they like to think, and K-Street money buys a lot of propaganda these days, i.e. votes.

leoj707 says

K-Street money buys a lot of propaganda these days, i.e. votes.

True that.

Dan8267 says

If the demographics are right, a message can be sent that in order to stay in office, you have to respect the rights of the citizens.

For that message to get sent in the way suggested enough people would have to be organized on the topic so that when the polls on votes are run it is clear to the outgoing candidate that their loss was not because their opponent was "better".

Probably enough people would have to be organized that they could viably get a third party candidate elected...

Dan8267 says

Ideally a third party would win the presidency, but that's not going to happen due to the screwed up elections we hold. Over 200 years, and our country still hasn't figured out how to run elections. Pathetic.

Yeah, agreed.

However, the problem is that most -- I am sure there are a few exceptions, Elizabeth Warren comes to mind -- who want to get into office probably should not be allowed to hold office. I think that it would be interesting to see social media/internet used to "draft" people into office through write in campaigns. The problem of organizing enough people to get the message across and make it work remains.

michaelsch says

CL says

I think you have illustrated why the GOP does not get the Jewish vote.

You're wrong. GOP gets a lot of Jewish votes. Bush won Florida in 2004 precisely because of Jewish votes. Rabbies went thru Jewish nursing homes and care centers agitating old Jewish voters to vote for Bush, because he is "good for Israel". (Not only in Florida).

In 2008 tons of e-mails to American voters with any Jewish connection were sent from Israel asking to vote against Obama.

Never responded to this. No, I'm not.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jewvote.html

The Jewish vote is one of the most reliably Democratic there is. Generally 75% go for the Ds, making them the 2nd most reliable behind African-Americans.

Like we really have a choice who is president. what you think you are actually voting for who is the next president?

the person is picked for you silly.

Katy Perry says

Like we really have a choice who is president. what you think you are actually voting for who is the next president?

the person is picked for you silly.

RON PAUL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The rest of these people are turds. Or worse, Realtors.

I think that guy with the sign is right about voting.

jvolstad says

RON PAUL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The rest of these people are worse than Realtors.

Ron Paul wants to take us back to the robber baron days of the late 1800s.

Do you want your kids working in coal mines with no safety regulations?

wthrfrk80 says

Do you want your kids working in coal mines with no safety regulations?

Oh, no, no, no.... don't be silly. They want your kids working in coal mines with no safety regulations.

rowemoore says

Katy Perry says

Like we really have a choice who is president. what you think you are actually voting for who is the next president?

the person is picked for you silly.

LOL - also very true.

I like you Rowe your an ok guy. When I find signs of intelligent life. I get estatic. I watched Rupert Murdock chase himself through the press the other day no one said anything about it.

I think we can agree Ron Paul is a great "concept". A rational intelligent thought and a guy you can turn into a squirrel.

Yes they can do all that and more right in front of your eyes.

"If those 80 million peasants ever get together and find that guillotine and start heading our way we are fucked". The 00000.1 %

leoj707 says

Do you want your kids working in coal mines with no safety regulations?

Oh, no, no, no.... don't be silly. They want your kids working in coal mines with no safety regulations.

They don't really dig mines anymore. They use strip mining now.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ty0IIloepU4

"While you were sleeping they were busy stealing".

See part of the deal is its all people you see everything about humanity in the debt merchant news. Really the crazy bastards are carving the earth up. Stealing things in many more place than say Iraq. Thats what you do know. Stuff like this here goes on all over the world.

See basicially the religon stuff and everything that concerns humans is the shallow end of the pool. Like in Afganistan its about strip mining. They hold that one close. Same thing in Libya. In Iraq it is fairly obvious its about oil. They want to stay in Afganistan till 2014 to make sure their strip mining operations are secure. The Russians went in for the mining the first time and got chased out with a big stinger show at the end. The Russians can't fight worth anything. So they are back again with the guys that get things done and the U.N. wolfpack. It really very easy to understand. They sell philosophy and steal like there is no tommorow. So anything of religions or philosophy or humanity they are thrilled to death. Show and tell what they are really up to they don't like it so much.

So getting upset at an Obama. That says "We don't want anything in Afganistan". Is pointless to me. The government is in debt to the likes which the world has never seen. The "government" is a wooden "monkey" on a string. Oh they say you'll go or we will put your countries balls in a vice and you'll squeal so hard they will be able to hear you from Japan. The whole point may be is they carve up the earth. Can never get enough or have stuff blown up because they are insane. Your sane you would not do those things. So you might want to consider the fact the MF's are off their "rockers". Especially in light of the obvious things like seismic disaster.

Fracking sells "well" in Texas then again so do UFO's. "Honey whys the ground shaking?" "They are fracking". Yea right. They have their own "fault line" going. They aren't really sure how it got there. It swallows up road sometimes. Then again Texas is oil country so its not good business to talk about such things. Hey debate it. As far as I'm concerned there is no debate. They are a bunch of fucking thieves thats where it starts and ends..

Then there is the Nevada desert and of course nothing goes on out there. At least in the movies and on television.

See this is what the common guys says. "Hey this is all great it comes to us". Of course it does in the form of debt. Hey thats your mess. The other thing is no one fucking consumes in the quantities they are taking. So they store it. Mountains of things they have taken all stored. Hey labor for food. Why have that much? No reason really. It's just that they are crazy as a roachs in a bowl full of Jello. You have to live on the earth. You might want to pay attention.

Deal is they have humanitarian cover stories and struggles in every fucking country they are stealing in. They don't like that known. Hey make the topic. I have one for you sticking around Afganistan with your Commonwealth buddies and the Russians. Strip mine that place and pay the fucking price. Strip mine or mine anywhere same thing.

Well Romney had the most money of the Republican candidates...