patrick.net

Nomograph says

You are the one claiming your opinions are "fact"

Nope. Your the one that has a problem that my statement is just a opinion. Therefore - you are the one that should first give a reasoning why it's wrong.

Nomograph says

Demanding that someone else prove them false is intellectually lazy.

Copying somebody else's statements are "intellectually lazy". Like the statement below you copied....

Nomograph says

Otherwise any more commentary from you will be useless and unneeded.

Moving on...

Nomograph says

Prove your statement is true.

No. That's not how it works. You had a problem that my statement was wrong. Therefore, YOU prove my statement is wrong. Than I will proceed.

Otherwise I'm not interested in entertaining anymore of your pointless hissy fits. I gave my take and opinion on this topic. If you don't like it, too bad.

tatupu70 says

You made a prediction about the future and don't see how that isn't a fact? A prediction can NEVER be a fact.

None of this is "prediction" - I made a analysis based on the current situation. The current situation and many factual problems point towards a worsening of conditions in the economy.

Don't try to twist what I said. Troll someone else.

MCM, you can't make a statement of personal opinion and then claim that it is "fact until proven otherwise." That isn't how it works. Just as someone that makes a claim that you are incorrect needs to provide backing, you need to provide a factual basis for a claim if you wish to demonstrate it as fact. I could claim that god exists, and nobody can provide measurable evidence to the contrary, but that still doesn't make my claim a fact. This isn't high school debate club: rendering an opponent's argument null might win the debate, but you could still be wrong.

bmwman91 says

MCM, you can't make a statement of personal opinion and then claim that it is "fact until proven otherwise." That isn't how it works. Just as someone that makes a claim that you are incorrect needs to provide backing, you need to provide a factual basis for a claim if you wish to demonstrate it as fact. I could claim that god exists, and nobody can provide measurable evidence to the contrary, but that still doesn't make my claim a fact. This isn't high school debate club: rendering an opponent's argument null might win the debate, but you could still be wrong.

blah blah blah... Go find someone else who will entertain this...

It makes no sense and is just incoherent nonsense eating space.

Prove the what I said that you claim is not factual. Otherwise go away. Simply pointing your finger that someone is wrong without showing how is not a intelligent debate on your part.

That's not how it works. Good Bye, Sir.

OK. Now I get it.

The Cubs will win the World Series next year. FACT.

That's a factual statement--right MCM?

If not, prove that they won't.

MCMSinger says

Steve Jobs went to community college as a "drop-in" - then dropped out when he had no more money for tuition. Yet... He accomplished way more than any of these clueless drone entitled idiots who can't think for themselves and need an idiot in front of a classroom to fill information into their dead brain instead of being able to dissect information themselves.

Formal education is useless. Education will be the next bubble to collapse. VERY similar to the housing bubble.

O this again...

Steve Jobs worked for Nolan Bushnell at Atari. Nolan DID go to college and did graduate. If it wasn't for him Steven wouldn't have been exposed to computers nearly as much. In 1976 they developed a system that looked nice but they didn't have the funds so Nolan sold it to Warner (28-32 million). Steve wanted to get into computers but the market wasn't there so he left (supposedly he made the game Breakout).

Fast forward to around 1983. A video game crash happened and gradually in some areas there was a shift to computers. Coleco tried Adam but that was a disaster. So apple tried a few systems...well here's the problem with claiming that Steven did this on his own...he didn't.

Most of Windows and Mac OS for that matter was greatly inspired but Xerox Parc's Rooms system. Did Steve Jobs ever visit the place? Yup...

http://inventors.about.com/od/cstartinventions/a/Apple_Computers.htm

http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html

"Steve Jobs had co-founded Apple Computer in 1976. The first popular personal computer, the Apple 2, was a hit - and made Steve Jobs one of the biggest names of a brand-new industry. At the height of Apple's early success in December 1979, Jobs, then all of 24, had a privileged invitation to visit Xerox Parc.

Steve Jobs
And they showed me really three things. But I was so blinded by the first one I didn't even really see the other two. One of the things they showed me was object orienting programming they showed me that but I didn't even see that. The other one they showed me was a networked computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all networked using email etc., etc., I didn't even see that. I was so blinded by the first thing they showed me which was the graphical user interface. I thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it was very flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of things wrong. But we didn't know that at the time but still though they had the germ of the idea was there and they'd done it very well and within you know ten minutes it was obvious to me that all computers would work like this some day.

It was a turning-point. Jobs decided that this was the way forward for Apple."

But wait that was the 80's...what about mac in say the 1990's...good question.

http://www.reghardware.com/2007/01/30/forgotten_tech_beos/
So Apple could have bought out BeOS..wait a second here..if the OS was fine why would they have to buy out anything? Unless their current line wasn't good.

MacOS is based on NeXT OpenStep..ok so since Jobs founded NeXT that means he made OpenStep...right? Nope..it was made with Sun Microsystems which was based on Solaris!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStep#OPENSTEP.2FMach

But apple made their own processors...right? Nope. They were dependent on the Motorola 68000 series of processors in the 80's (just like Atari and Amiga (which did much better in Europe). So what about the 90's? Well the PowerPC chip which was pretty much IBM and Motorola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerpc Mac OS technically is just a buyproduct of Linux now.
Linux also powers Android and Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook
Much of MacOS X's material can easily be created in linux
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ynJrYBvelg

Apple makes products that look good but it doesn't exactly break new ground on things. They are rarely the first to develop a new product.

Jobs hardly programmed, he didn't design any OS, he didn't design any product. He simply gave the OK if he liked it. That is not really showing talet that simply is showing that he is a boss.

When he went back to Apple in the late 90's, he prevented other companies from licensing products which is hypocritical given how much future products became dependent on linux. Do as I say, not as I do. He came into a company as it was on the ropes AND its major competitor was facing a anti trust lawsuit from the DoJ. Of course you are going to see a rebound in sales from that point!

I rather invest in apple stock than apple products.
I am not a fan of Bill Gates either as he is largely in the same boat. Tim Patterson made dos..Gates wasn't really a programmer and was actually born into a millionaire family with access to computers in the early 70's.

No formal education is not useless. Like it or not a bachelors degree is the defacto baseline standard. It is more efficient to confirm a degree than it is with experience because not everyone passes a battery test. Taking experience on as blind faith (that is without a form of a test) is a very bad policy. Employers do not teach people skills that have a value somewhere else because that becomes contradictory to them being employed at that organization to begin with. If there is a bubble in education I would argue that it is with the for profit organizations like Apollo, University of Phoenix DeVry.

"from Andrew Carnegie to Sam Walton to Larry Ellison and many others and many to come tomorrow."

Sam Walton graduated with a degree in economics at University of Missouri. Larry Ellison left school not because he wanted to drop out but because his adoptive mother just died and had to move in with a friend. Andrew Carnegie had access to 400 books (not even my kindle has that many) from Colonel Anderson

http://www.clpgh.org/exhibit/anderson.html

"John Phipps, James R. Wilson, Thomas N. Miller, William Cowley--members of our circle--shared with me the invaluable privilege of the use of Colonel Anderson's library. Books which it would have been impossible for me to obtain elsewhere were, by his wise generosity, placed within my reach; and to him I owe a taste for literature which I would not exchange for all the millions that were ever amassed by man. Life would be quite intolerable without it. Nothing contributed so much to keep my companions and myself clear of low fellowship and bad habits as the beneficence of the good Colonel. Later, when fortune smiled upon me, one of my first duties was the erection of a monument to my benefactor. It stands in front of the Hall and Library in Diamond Square, which I presented to Allegheny, and bears this inscription:"

So he technically was dependent on someone else for his education. So it was around 1845ish when he was a kid so this was directly responsible for his education.

@mdovell

when did I ever say education is useless? Learn to read and analyze an argument carefully.

I said FORMAL "education" is useless.

What the majority of sheeple believe is that the public school systems and universities educate you.

They don't.

why are you boasting to me that Andrew Carnegie owned over 400 books? You are implying that you think that I think books and reading along with studying is useless.

That is false. I never said that nor have I ever said that. In fact, I own over 300 books myself. Nonfiction - For studying. I love going to barnes & noble and the library.

You also imply that you believe successful individuals have had some lucky circumstantial events which randomly determined their success. This what the majority of people believe. They believe people become successfully randomly, out of luck and for no reason at all but just circumstantial.

But whatever. You are free to believe what you want.

And your comments about Apple - I will have to agree on. I'm not a fanboy nor do I think Steve Jobs built the best computers.

I simply give him credit on his business savvy. How many MBA morons you think would be able to compete in business with him?

tatupu70 says

OK. Now I get it.

The Cubs will win the World Series next year. FACT.

That's a factual statement--right MCM?

If not, prove that they won't.

Thank You.

You just proved that you couldn't back up your accusations of my statements being false.

So now you resort to trying to switching around the table of me proving your statements wrong. Pretty cheap escape.

Troll...

MCMSinger says

You just proved that you couldn't back up your accusations of my statements being false.

Here's what I actually said:

tatupu70 says

Those statements may or may not turn out to be true

This is getting ridiculous. You are predicting the future. It's not a fact. It can't be proven incorrect. Because it is referring to the future.

tatupu70 says

This is getting ridiculous. You are predicting the future. It's not a fact. It can't be proven incorrect. Because it is referring to the future.

Let me know when you have something new to say.

"What the majority of sheeple believe is that the public school systems and universities educate you.

They don't."

Ok then so what would you say does that an employer can actually verify? How are you defining what education actually is? If we like it or not trends clearly illustrate on average that those with a higher education make more in income. If there was no correlation then a high school drop out on average would make as much as someone with a ph.d and that simply is not the case. If this was 100 years ago industries had a interest in teaching employees/workers/people skills because efficiency was largely based on them. Now that is not the case.

If high school was just enough then employers would feel confident in asking for them as a standard. A fair percentage of the jobs I see advertised require a degree. Now you might argue that standardized tests might help since that can be considered an equalizer as a standard between schools that have different funding and quality of educators.

"why are you boasting to me that Andrew Carnegie owned over 400 books? You are implying that you think that I think books and reading along with studying is useless."

I was quoting someone else on the thread..I'm assuming you read all the posts within the thread. I was not replying to you.

"That is false. I never said that nor have I ever said that. In fact, I own over 300 books myself. Nonfiction - For studying. I love going to barnes & noble and the library."

If you notice I didn't quote you so what makes you think I did??

"You also imply that you believe successful individuals have had some lucky circumstantial events which randomly determined their success. This what the majority of people believe. They believe people become successfully randomly, out of luck and for no reason at all but just circumstantial."

No I'm not claiming it is luck but the argument that somehow people can drop out and things can be OK is a bit of a misnomer too. Correlation does not mean causality. Since you aren't actually defining what success means to you I have no metric by which to debate the semantics of it.

"I simply give him credit on his business savvy. How many MBA morons you think would be able to compete in business with him?"

I'm no fan of MBA's but it isn't exactly him that is running the ship. At least with Amazon arguments can be made with the kindle that it gives it access to their library. With apple the business model is odd. How many people honestly buy software these days given the quality that is out there? How many people really "NEED" to upgrade an OS? Computers and technology are great don't get me wrong but it is a highly deflationary market. The "Mac Tax" exists and people have found out how to put mac OS on other laptops and pc's. Apple products are designed well but the outright quality is questionable. Forcing proprietary policies on people is the exact same mannerisms that Microsoft created in the 1990's that caused people to hate it.

To the OP:

You have to understand that an entire generation (Boomers) grew up and lived most of their adult lives under a real estate scenario where RE prices went up, sometimes spectacularly.

Yes there were a few years of backwardation (early eighties and mid-nineties) but generally prices went skyward, especially after the dot com bust and Boomers determined to use their home values as an alternative to savings to fund their retirement accounts.

This is a generation of 76 million, of which only 10 percent has passed away.

Old habits die hard and the fact that RE going up is primarily what this generation experienced and benefited from is the main reason why the bubble mentality, imo, will be with us for at least another 10 years.

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

~Misstrial

bigbubblemama says

On oahu I noticed a trend of adult kids(with kids) moving in with parents and the kids would pay for add on cost 2-300,000 and would create their home unit adding onto parents small house, pretty big lot sizes ~10,000.

so they don't have a glut of McMansions that they could already use (instead of creating a crappy add-on)?

Nomograph says

just that you don't seem to understand the difference between opinion and fact.

Either way fault finding for no purpose is unintelligent.

Nomograph says

Well, at least you FINALLY admit that you were wrong and just giving an opinion. Congratulations.

Taking unrelated statements out of their context is for individuals looking to win arguments they are afraid they will lose.

Nomograph says

Your writings here prove this to be incorrect in the strongest possible way.

Okay. Show HOW it is incorrect. Prove it. Give direct examples. Otherwise like I said johnny: take a hike!

@mdovell

I will admit that you have some good points and good reasoning. Although I may not believe 100% with everything you say; I do think you have intelligent points. Although I believe some of them are incomplete in their perspective to see the whole picture. But nonetheless, you do bring good points.

MCM Singer,

Some Cool, Hip and Beautiful People of The Bay Area have posted here on this thread their reasons why they overpay (based on your math) on housing. Appreciation was not one of them. Job market, Coolness, weather, Hipness, access to recreation, Beautifulness, "schools", whatever. According to their math, they are getting their money's worth for what they are paying.

Their math is not based on Bubblicious Asset Value Appreciation BubbleThink, it is based on the value they place on different aspects Personal Consumption. Since it is their Personal Consumption, it is their personal choice. That is their math, you can disagree with it (maybe you can tell by reading between the lines of my posts, maybe I disagree with it, too); but it does not make them liars. It just make them have a different type of idea of values than some of The Rest of Us have.

Going off the deep end ranting and name calling etc on here are going to make people think that you are the one with the problem.

Regarding the recession Flushing the Toilet on The Hipsters' expectations of appreciation, you don't have to rant, etc. about it. So far, in the Bay Area at least, it has been a recession, up till now, and it has Flushed That Toilet. I think I probably agree with you that what till now has been a recession is likely to unfold as something that looks like a full blown depression, but till now, just a recession, a nasty recession, but enough of one where we don't hear the Hipsters crow about their housing appreciation. Instead nowadays its all about what they're willing to pay (yes, pay interest perhaps in many cases) for Their personal preferences.

Chill out dude.

You'll never win any arguments with that ranting, even if you win in your own mind and even by logic, you'll still lose with that ranting.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Going off the deep end ranting and name calling etc on here are going to make people think that you are the one with the problem.

Ranting? Yes. Name calling? No. You are now making stuff up.

I never name called anyone personally (only one person who fit the definition) but I did name call a GROUP of people.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Chill out dude

How would you know whether I'm calm or tense?

I'm just defending my points views like many others who are defending their views to me.

B.A.C.A.H. says

You'll never win any arguments with that ranting,

Sorry but I just believe very strongly in it.

B.A.C.A.H. says

even if you win in your own mind and even by logic

I'm not too concerned with playing good politics.

B.A.C.A.H. says

you'll still lose with that ranting

Only on the biasis of other people's personal perception of me. I'm not here to make friends.

Anyway - you have your point of view and I have mine. We share some common beliefs but we just need to accept that we are individuals with different experiences & therefore different beliefs.

MCMSinger says

Name calling? No. You are now making stuff up.

MCMSinger says

This is they exact same disease mentality

MCMSinger says

Undeserved & irresponsible lifestyle

MCMSinger says

Yuppies are the phony rich

MCMSinger says

First these idiots are irresponsible

MCMSinger says

It sure does and to think otherwise is a testament that you have bought into the idiocy of these morons.

MCMSinger says

They are liars clearly because they are purchasing

MCMSinger says

for the last reason, they are liars because

B.A.C.A.H. says

Has Data
Tue, 4 Oct 2011 at 10:07 pm   Quote   Best Of   Share   Link   Top   Bottom   Flag
MCMSinger says

Name calling? No. You are now making stuff up.

MCMSinger says

This is they exact same disease mentality

MCMSinger says

Undeserved & irresponsible lifestyle

MCMSinger says

Yuppies are the phony rich

MCMSinger says

First these idiots are irresponsible

MCMSinger says

It sure does and to think otherwise is a testament that you have bought into the idiocy of these morons.

MCMSinger says

They are liars clearly because they are purchasing

MCMSinger says

for the last reason, they are liars because

Self awareness can be a very beautiful thing. Lack of, not so much.

@B.A.C.A.H

I did admit to name calling groups of people. Pointing out examples of it is pointless since I never disputed it.

Arguing over petty matters is not clever but rather foolish. It would do you good to debate objectively. Your personal vendetta is clear to see.

Sorry if my views on real estate conflicts with your vested interests. But this is not the place for your censorship.

Perhaps the National Association of Realtors is the place for you to feel more secure in your views on real estate. But I'm afraid this not the place for only supporting one point of view.

Thanks for Your Understanding

MCMSinger says

your vested interests

Huh?

B.A.C.A.H. says

Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mental_retardation

Regarding Steve Jobs: Rest in peace my friend. You were an inspiration to me even though I didn't know you personally. It's sad and a loss that you had to passover. Your talents will stay with the world as an inspiration to me and others.

-My blessings to you.

As expressed in this thread, the sentiment is pretty much on schedule given the delays caused by government interference. Absent that interference, we would have already recovered from the housing bubble and the resulting depression.

Here's looking forward to the next three years.

shrekgrinch says

Denial...especially 'selective denial' is alive and well with people in general. That's all.

Shit, you're back? I thought you were just going to post under your more friendly MarsAttacks! account.