patrick.net

PersainCAT says

wiki "rapture": "The Rapture theory was largely developed by American evangelists from the 17th century onwards, although certain Roman Catholics had espoused similar ideas before."

There were only a handful of references to it in the 17th and 18th Centuries, and it was first postulated - but rejected - in the 7th Century. Rapture theory is also rejected by the majority of Protestant organizations.

A guy named Darby, who wrote in the early 19th Century was responsible for turning Rapture theory from an obscure philosophy known (and largely rejected) only to a tiny number of theologians, into a popular philosophy.

And dividing the world into ages based on a very complex exegis of the Bible - far from the "plain meaning".

All educated people read Latin. Latin was taught to pretty much all students at any school or university, whether in Protestant or Catholic countries, until well into the 19th Century.

Interesting how 1800 years of Christianity discounted the theory.

Dan8267 says

Nothing in the universe is transcendent. That's why we can understand anything about the universe. It all follows mathematical laws.

Are there universes outside of our own? What form does life take on a gaseous planet? If you couldn't see, taste, smell or measure it, would it still exist, or does the universe have to be limited to the sensory abilities of our bodies?

I agree that the sky daddy is silly, but I think it wrong to constrain the whole of the cosmos to what I can measure, see or even comprehend.

leoj707 says

Well, Taoism is as much a philosophical pursuit as it is a religion, and in fact Taoism is not incompatible with atheism or other religions for that matter.

There is only one philosophical question that I am aware of that has an answer other than "I don't know". That question is: "Am I experiencing what appears to be a consciousness".

True, true. I use the Tao only to illustrate that what the atheist discounts may be the "Sky Daddy" creationist stuff, more than the esoteric philosophies.

Since the Tao does not make many positive statements, I find it hard to disprove. Even the relativity aspect of it appeals to the logical.

For example, one can easily see the pivotal role that Satan and Judas play in the Christian salvation story. No betrayal, no resurrection, no salvation. Judas was doing the Lord's work when he stabbed him in the back, no?

Who knows what's good or bad?

And science seems to prove the volatile pairs of opposites daily, on the gigantic and on the molecular level.

CL says

For example, one can easily see the pivotal role that Satan and Judas play in the Christian salvation story. No betrayal, no resurrection, no salvation. Judas was doing the Lord's work when he stabbed him in the back, no?

Yes, there is a whole christian philosophy about how Judas got a bad rap, and was in fact Jesus's BFF. Now there just has to be a christian philosophy about satan being a good guy.

CL says

Who knows what's good or bad?

Science may be able to answer that question someday:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/a-science-of-morality_b_567185.html

PersainCAT says

the concept may be "newish" from the standpoint of being heavily discussed, but remember very few actually even read the bible till it was widely translated in anything but Latin.

Does that mean we should reconsider all of the Apocrypha for inclusion? Those were rejected also.

How about the Book of Hebrews? Luther himself suspected it was a forgery and didn't belong in the Bible.

When a part of theology was rejected by the Early Church, and is still rejected (Arianism, Monophysitism, etc.) its used as evidence for its Error.
When a part of theology was rejected by the Early Church, but has come into popularity in modern times, it doesn't mean anything.

It's odd because many modern Christian sects claim they "Go Back to the Early Church, when all belief was perfect and not corrupted by man or organized religion". Rapture theory then belongs in the dustbin, since the Early Church rejected it.

CL says

Are there universes outside of our own?

Perhaps, but they would still obey the laws of physics. The universal constants might be different, but the other universes would still have natural, not supernatural laws. If there is any connection between our universe and the others, which is to say those other universes bear any meaning to us, then they would form a multiverse system which would have a set of natural laws that subsume the laws in our universe, i.e., the natural laws in our universe or any other would be a special case of the natural laws of the multiverse. Physicists have already considered this possibility. Nothing in the multiverse conjecture or in M-Theory contradicts The Big Bang Theory.

[I have a pet conjecture that the relative rotation of colliding membranes determines the ratio of matter to anti-matter in the resulting big bang, perhaps in accordance with the inverse tangent function. But that's pure conjecture at this point. If my conjecture is true -- and that's a big if -- and if the universe isn't full of alternative matter / anti-matter galactic clusters ,then the membranes that collided to form our universe must have had extremely little, but non-zero rotational energy (well little relatively speaking, it could be massive compared to the energy contained in our universe).]

CL says

What form does life take on a gaseous planet?

I don't see how this question relates to the natural vs. supernatural debate. The existence of life on a gas giant neither supports nor detracts from the supernatural hypothesis.

However, there have been many discussions of life in gaseous planets from both the science and scientific communities. Arthur C. Clarke wrote about gas life forms in his novel 2010. The game Starcon II featured a race of intelligent gas dwellers whose technology was limited to what they could get to float in their planet's dense atmosphere. Sure, it's possible that life could form in a gas giant's atmosphere since chemistry could take place there. Such life could even be intelligent, but I wouldn't expect them to build spaceships.

CL says

If you couldn't see, taste, smell or measure it, would it still exist, or does the universe have to be limited to the sensory abilities of our bodies?

What would make you think that the universe "has to be limited to the sensory abilities of our bodies"? Our bodies are the result of some pretty arbitrary evolutionary history and our senses are not even able to pick up the same signals as the senses of other species. Some birds see ultraviolet light. Some predators see near infrared. We know of a great number of things that exist and we cannot directly observe from atoms to black holes, from virtual particles to space-time frame dragging. Of course, we always have reasons to believe these things. Everything that interacts in the universe leaves an effect. If a star explodes, it leaves a ring of debris called a nova. The big bang left background radiation. Dinosaurs left fossils. My dog left a poo on the kitchen floor. Even black holes leave a gravitation field that affects distant objects and causes gravitational lensing. There's always proof of the existence of anything that actually does exist.

CL says

but I think it wrong to constrain the whole of the cosmos to what I can measure, see or even comprehend.

And every scientist and every atheist including myself would agree. Rationality does not imply that, and conversely that does not imply the existence of anything supernatural.

There is plenty of legitimate mystery in the universe. Man does not have to make things up to make the universe a more interesting place.

Dan8267 says

There is plenty of legitimate mystery in the universe. Man does not have to make things up to make the universe a more interesting place.

Totally true. My point was that things exist that are beyond our comprehension. Some things used to be and we discovered them. We used science to prove and disprove a lot of notions.
Maybe some things never will be? Are there planes that we don't participate on?

My point of the planet stuff is that it seems anthropocentric even when we define "life". I could be wrong, but doesn't it all seem to be based around cell division? Why can't life be something unrecognizable to us?

PersainCAT says

You honestly think there would still be 100s or protestant denominations if it was simply a matter of "new" concepts.

There are :)
Currently there are 33,000 unique Christian Denominations worldwide.

And of course, groups change their theology over time. Catholicism has done so, Lutheranism has done so, Anglicans have certainly done so... etc.PersainCAT says

the difference is after the council the catholic church DEFINED the "correct" belief based on its own dogma of the council, not necessarily the "correct" answer.

I'm glad you brought up the Church Councils.

The early Church Councils mostly depended upon how many bishops showed up from various parts of Christendom. Had the Councils been held in Alexandria, the decisions would have been very different.

It wasn't the majority opinion that won, it was the bishops who were able to make the conference that won.

Many Christians believe the Bible emerged in full by the Hand of God, they don't realize that Church Councils - composed of Men - decided what books were part of the New Testament and which ones weren't. Most Christians aren't even aware that they exist.

CL says

My point of the planet stuff is that it seems anthropocentric even when we define "life". I could be wrong, but doesn't it all seem to be based around cell division? Why can't life be something unrecognizable to us?

How we define a word does not influence the nature of the universe or what is possible and what is not. A word is just a word, a tool for communication. As such, our words and definition are not important except for communication.

So whether we define "life" to include entity X or not does not change the properties of entity X. Just like whether we define "sport" to include golf or not does not change the properties of the game of golf. Golf is more like baseball than chess is, but it is less like baseball than football is. Where you draw the set of sports in your Venn Diagram has no baring on the similarities among golf, baseball, football, and chess.

That said, I don't know of a "cell-centric" definition of life. I think most biologist consider viruses to be life-forms even though they don't have or are cells and they don't perform their own metabolic processes. They do, however, have genetic code and evolve.

As for me, I define life as "self-reproducing information" and viruses, despite using a host's metabolic systems, do meet that definition because they are directing their own reproduction. Computer viruses also meet my definition of life even though their code is usually not genetic. Of course, I'm not a biologist, and the scientific community is free to define life in a different way.

CL says

Are there planes that we don't participate on?

If there is a reality separate from our own that we cannot, even in principle, interact with, then it is meaningless to us and is certainly no basis for a theological belief system or a basis for morality or worship.

If some other reality does interact with ours, then that interaction with be govern by a set of natural laws, either the natural laws we know or a set that subsumes, and therefore does not contradict, the natural laws that we do know. After all, that hypothetical reality would be part of nature, not the supernatural. And as part of nature, that other reality would be intelligible. We'd be able to answer questions like "how does gravity work in that reality?" and "what is the speed of light in that reality?".

Dan8267 says

The universal constants might be different, but the other universes would still have natural, not supernatural laws. If there is any connection between our universe and the others, which is to say those other universes bear any meaning to us, then they would form a multiverse system...

My understanding is that the universe includes everything that we can experience (touch, see, measure, etc.). If there was another "universe" out there --and we could prove that it existed-- would it not then become a "part" of our universe?

leoj707 says

Dan8267 says

The universal constants might be different, but the other universes would still have natural, not supernatural laws. If there is any connection between our universe and the others, which is to say those other universes bear any meaning to us, then they would form a multiverse system...

My understanding is that the universe includes everything that we can experience (touch, see, measure, etc.). If there was another "universe" out there --and we could prove that it existed-- would it not then become a "part" of our universe?

That is what I would say. And in terms of the commonality of religious thought there are small points at which the transcendent becomes immanent. Like an Avatar in Hinduism--the supernatural pushes through the membrane that separates this world and that.

Verifiable? No. But I'd say without the tools to understand the other side of the membrane how would we know? Couldn't it be akin to Climate change deniers looking out their windows and "disproving" the science? We lack the tools.

But from an analytical and psychological/sociological perspective, the mystics seem to have the same experiences throughout recorded history. They have similar themes and mythologies.

We can disregard them as collective nonsense or primitive thought. We can surmise that they must've learned this from some migrating group (or space aliens!). Or we can believe that they've experienced something extra-ordinary. I don't think we can dismiss it out of hand though.

CL says

Verifiable? No. But I'd say without the tools to understand the other side of the membrane how would we know? Couldn't it be akin to Climate change deniers looking out their windows and "disproving" the science? We lack the tools.

No, it is not like climate change. We have tools to measure and "prove" climate change, and the issue is simple enough that even a layman (who does not have an opposing agenda) can understand the science.

You are however correct that we do not have the tools to detect this "membrane".

CL says

But from an analytical and psychological/sociological perspective, the mystics seem to have the same experiences throughout recorded history. They have similar themes and mythologies.

We can disregard them as collective nonsense or primitive thought. We can surmise that they must've learned this from some migrating group (or space aliens!). Or we can believe that they've experienced something extra-ordinary. I don't think we can dismiss it out of hand though.

Yes, the mystical experience is a very real thing that people experience as part of the human condition, and not limited to "the mystics". It can be very similar for most people, but there are some who the experience is different or perhaps they don't have them at all. If you are capable of having this mystical experience you probably know by the time you are an adult.

Many religions will claim that they hold the true keys to having this mystical experience, but they do not. Yes, some may even claim that a space alien called Xenu is part of the mystical experience. I don't think that there is anything extra-ordinary going on, no super powers involved. In fact so many people seem to have these mystical experiences --even without drugs-- that it is very... well... ordinary...

It is just often difficult for people to explain some things that happen to them. Imagine if you were walking down the street and your leg suddenly gave out; you don't know the cause, and the doctor you consult can't tell why. A mystery yes, but extra-ordinary no.

leoj707 says

It is just often difficult for people to explain some things that happen to them. Imagine if you were walking down the street and your leg suddenly gave out; you don't know the cause, and the doctor you consult can't tell why. A mystery yes, but extra-ordinary no.

Right. In the case of the Climate Change non-believer, they believe they have the tools to determine, without science, whether or not such a phenomenon is occurring. It's really politically motivated hubris.

But for most of the world who picks sides, they don't have the scientific background, education or understanding even to determine which scientist is correct. That's why we on the left find solace in the fact that 10s of thousands of research scientists, the overwhelming majority- have come to that conclusion. We don't actually participate in the studies, we believe in those who have, honor the results, and incorporate their findings into our worldviews.

Now, regarding the mystics. If they claim to have the true keys, I'd say that's when they've broken down into tribalism, and tithe-seeking. :)

CL says

Now, regarding the mystics. If they claim to have the true keys, I'd say that's when they've broken down into tribalism, and tithe-seeking. :)

Haha, yes, I say that falls into this category:
CL says

That's why the Tao says, "Those who know don't say, those who say don't know".

With all the different ideas floating around it is difficult to know what in the bible is true. If only there was some sort of business --that could say charge me a subscription fee based on my salary-- that would tell me what is true.

leoj707 says

My understanding is that the universe includes everything that we can experience (touch, see, measure, etc.). If there was another "universe" out there --and we could prove that it existed-- would it not then become a "part" of our universe?

Your question is one of semantics rather than science. If you define "universe" to be everything, then yes. If you define "universe" to be everything that resulted from the big bang, then maybe no. If you prefer the later definition for universe, then you can use the multiverse or the cosmos to mean the entire system of everything.

There was a time when we thought the Milky Way galaxy was the entire universe. We then corrected our view by creating the word galaxy to mean our island of star systems and interstellar gas.

If a structure larger than that which resulted from the big bang is discovered, then perhaps we will redefine universe to include that larger structure. Or perhaps we will use a new word. Either way, it is simply a question of semantics and does not bear any deeper meaning.

Recently, the astronomical community already had a long and pointless debate about whether or not to consider Pluto a planet. Science doesn't require rigid categorization. Only human language does.

Jung

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M6ZakIPaQ4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO5roM3wnGg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icDc4Om71ns&feature=related

One of my sisters honestly believes that the "original" bible is being held in a safe somewhere... I tried to explain that there is no "original" bible; it's be transcribed over & over by man and changed along the way.

For all we know, it might have started out:

"I never thought this could happen to me, but there I was..."

elliemae says

One of my sisters honestly believes that the "original" bible is being held in a safe somewhere... I tried to explain that there is no "original" bible; it's be transcribed over & over by man and changed along the way.

For all we know, it might have started out:

"I never thought this could happen to me, but there I was..."

Eschew Obfuscation

Your sister's faith is no worse than the common faith that default human condition is staying healthy instead of the fact the being alive is simply decay/cancer/death waiting to happen. If the faith in salvation helps her embrace the eventual demise when the time comes, instead of demanding that other people being enslaved to keep her alive for just one more breath, so much the better for all involved. It is not mere coincidence that all Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions believe in "salvation" after life while eastern traditional religions like Bhuddism believe that life is suffering and death puts an end to that (or reincarnate or whatever). Both seem to be far more efficient and cause less suffering than our current religion of hooking people up for just one more breath no matter what the cost both to the suffering and dying person as well as everyone else (except for the high priests marketing the promise of cure for anything and everything at ludicrous prices)

elliemae says

One of my sisters honestly believes that the "original" bible is being held in a safe somewhere... I tried to explain that there is no "original" bible; it's be transcribed over & over by man and changed along the way.

Yes Ellie! There's a lot of people who think the original Bible fell out of the sky into the lap of a Saint, or that there is a Blessed Original hiding in some vault in a Monastery or in a desert cave guarded by some Ancient Order of Knights or some such..

Clearly, there can be no "original Bible" anyway, since it contains multiple books written down over thousands of years, and that doesn't even take the New Testament into consideration.

The NT was written over a long period too, had countless authors and then was edited/redacted to form the Canon. What went in? What didn't measure up?

Also, if you are familiar with the way the Hebrew scriptures weaved the different stories together it's really interesting. There are literally lines by one school, followed by lines from another. Sometimes stitched together in a single sentence!

That said, to quote National Lampoon, "I believe the Bible is literally true; I don't, however, base much importance on it".

Clearly Shrek is not dead. He lives on in the spirit of Mars Attacks.

Therefore this thread is moot and should be locked/deleted, aside from it's pointless current wandering in the desert.....

Dan8267 says

Your question is one of semantics rather than science.

Yeah, I suspected it may have just been a semantic issue, thanks.

Vicente says

Clearly Shrek is not dead. He lives on in the spirit of Mars Attacks.

Therefore this thread is moot and should be locked/deleted, aside from it's pointless current wandering in the desert.....

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

You talking reincarnation here?

Good point though, last time shrek was discussed at all is pretty far up this thread.

leoj707 says

Dan8267 says

Your question is one of semantics rather than science.

Yeah, I suspected it may have just been a semantic issue, thanks.

Oh, so now you guys are anti-semantic? :)

CL says

Oh, so now you guys are anti-semantic? :)

No, some of my best friends are gerunds.

CL says

Clearly, there can be no "original Bible"

Actually, I have a copy of the original bible. It's just like the modern bible, but it has one additional page at the beginning. That page reads,

The events, characters, and gods depicted in this work are fictitious. Any similarity to actual persons, living or dead, or to actual events or gods is purely coincidental.

While we are on the subject of Bible, I find it a rather interesting reading as retelling of history . . . much as the Homerian poetic chronicles. Much of the issues addressed in the Bible actually have parallels to modern life. e.g.:

Jesus was obviously involved in a period of tax revolt ("give Caesar his own coin") and revolt against religio-fiat money monopoly ("the money changers" charging much higher price than metal content for special coins without icons vs. the Roman coins with icons).

The Old Testament was even more fascinating. Joseph could have been one of earliest Keynesian counter-cyclical interventionists. In order for the Pharoh government to store up 7years of grain surplus, obviously the government had to offer above-market price to buy grain . . . which would have caused over-planting and over-production. i.e. an agro bubble! We can surmise what happened to the farm land price under such circumstances. Eventually the agro bubble bursted after 7years. Joseph's agents were buying up assets on the cheap during the subsequent bust (as explained in the Old Testament). The average Egyptians probably were not too happy about this. Joseph's merry band of central planners were chased out Egypt within 2-3 generations. In the Egyptian records, there was the Pharoh Akhenaten/Moses starting a new religion in a new capital, probably because the Egyptian polytheistic religious establishment providing the leadership to the general popular discontent to the Pharoh/state economic machinations.

Takes a brave Christian to believe their bible is a fallible, human-created and -edited document with no actual divine guarantee of correctness.

Got into an interesting discussion with a fundamentalist friend some years ago, one of my points was why does Paul get the last word on what Christianity is today.

I know for a fact that given the choice, a lion will prefer to eat a Moslim over a Christian. That's all I really know on the subject of religion. I prefer opium to be the opiate of the underclass.

Bellingham Bob says

Takes a brave Christian to believe their bible is a fallible, human-created and -edited document with no actual divine guarantee of correctness.

Got into an interesting discussion with a fundamentalist friend some years ago, one of my points was why does Paul get the last word on what Christianity is today.

“Nessuna soluzione . . . nessun problema!„

The New Testament is filled with flat-out contradictions, like the origins of the "field of blood".

But I find the most humor in the idea that Moses wrote the Torah, on accounta he died in it, and was alone when he died!

Although, Noah getting drunk and dropping trou in front of his daughters is pretty darn funny too!

CL says

But I find the most humor in the idea that Moses wrote the Torah, on accounta he died in it, and was alone when he died!

Torah and much of Old Testament were an oral tradition before Ezra put it down in writing after the return from Babylonian exile. One can read the anti-Egyptian / pro-Persian bias in the writing. Ezra was an agent of the Persian King/Emperor to set up an anti-Egyptian outpost at the land bridge between Africa and Asia.

Reality says

CL says

But I find the most humor in the idea that Moses wrote the Torah, on accounta he died in it, and was alone when he died!

Torah and much of Old Testament were an oral tradition before Ezra put it down in writing after the return from Babylonian exile. One can read the anti-Egyptian / pro-Persian bias in the writing. Ezra was an agent of the Persian King/Emperor to set up an anti-Egyptian outpost at the land bridge between Africa and Asia.

I've suspected, but not researched, that Judaism took on the dualism of Zorastrianism while in captivity.

Do you think that's plausible, or do you think that Ezra made Satan into Angra Mainyu? Either way, Shrek is dead. ;)