patrick.net

Nice of Cook County resident to reverse his stance 180 degrees. First he argues that obesity is not a problem in the U.S. Then he argues, well, it's a problem everywhere.

I hate to break this to you -- oh, wait, I love to break this to you -- but America ranks #1 in obesity and France ranks 23rd. Per capital, there is 3 times as much obesity in the U.S. as in France. But don't let facts get in the way of your world view.

ABC News states: America is fat. And getting fatter. Even after all the health warnings, doctor recommendations and FDA regulations, and a massive weight loss industry, Americans are still packing on the pounds at an alarming rate.

If anything, America is starting to export a culture of bad nutrition and no exercise which is causing cultures similar to ours to bulk up.

Anyway, no one take medical advice from Cook County resident. He's not a real doctor, although he plays one on Patrick.net. He's the reason why every state has laws regulating who can practice medicine. Turns out it takes many years of time, effort, and studying to earn the legal right to diagnose people for diseases.

And quite frankly, it's insulting to real doctors when rank amateurs pretend they can do the same task with no training or knowledge. Pick up a book on human anatomy or organic chemistry if you have any doubts about how difficult getting a medical degree is. Given the job stability, high incomes, and social prestige of being a doctor, everyone would become one if it were easy.

For reference...

Could it just be that this guy was fat and lazy? An extreme example, but not an uncommon problem in the U.S. I wonder how many other examples similar to this we could find with a simple Google search.

I stand by my premise. A country in which stuff like this happens, perhaps should acknowledge that it has a problem.

yea, he's fat because he eats too much and is lazy. maybe he should eat less, and exercise more. Because we all know that fat people are fat because they eat too much and exercise too little. That's the problem with the herds' consensus mentality, you are wrong more often then not

Dan8267 says

Nice of Cook County resident to reverse his stance 180 degrees. First he argues that obesity is not a problem in the U.S. Then he argues, well, it's a problem everywhere.

I thought I'd been communicating clearly, but perhaps not clearly enough for everybody. Here we go again:

Obesity is not a long term economic problem.

Obesity is not peculiar to America, it can be found in just about every country in the world.

These views are not inconsistent and there is no 180 degree turnaround.

If this is still a head-scratcher for anyone, I'll try to say it even more simply.

Dan8267 says

But don't let facts get in the way of your world view.

Whose world view and what would that world view be?

Dan8267 says

If anything, America is starting to export a culture of bad nutrition and no exercise which is causing cultures similar to ours to bulk up.

Sure, blame America. It's Ben Franklin plot. Too bad our founding fathers weren't more like Joe Stalin. Now there was guy who knew how to fight obesity!

Dan8267 says

And quite frankly, it's insulting to real doctors when rank amateurs pretend they can do the same task with no training or knowledge.

OK, let's say I'm wrong about the guy having mental and maybe physical problems keeping him in the chair.

Why didn't he, a few hours after he sat down in the chair, get up, take a shower and put on some clean clothes? There's a whole world of fat people who do these things every day,.

If Chair guy didn't have some mental of maybe physical impairments, why didn't he take care of himself?

Was Uncle Sam holding him down?

Dan8267 says

For reference...

Always nice when my discussion group pals confirm what I say.

Obesity isn't peculiar to America.

Cook County resident says

Always nice when my discussion group pals confirm what I say.

I never said that obesity occurs ONLY in America. I said that obesity is epidemic in America as oppose to most of the world. When America ranks #1 in a world of about 200 countries, one might just possible want to look at American culture as being partly responsible for the problem. Hell, if America ranked anywhere in the top 5, I'd stand by that point.

Stop being so concerned about you being right and start being concerned about what is right. You keep changing your position so often as facts roll in that I'm reminded of politicians. If you're so concerned that we end this discussion with me agreeing with your position, then adopt the position that water is wet.

I love to be proven wrong when I am wrong, for that increases my understanding of the universe. However, I cannot stand meritless arguments for the sake of arguing; they add nothing to the understanding of a problem or the search for solutions.

errc says

Could it just be that this guy was fat and lazy?

Yes.

zzyzzx: frickin' hilarious!

I've never understood the mentality of the people who encourage the extreme examples of obesity. The ones who bring the meals of 3 chickens, a ham and 2 loaves of bread (I'm just making shit up, here). They do it even though the obese person can't get out of bed due to (drum roll, please) lower extremity weakness brought on by extreme obesity...

This guy whose girlfriend brought him food as he sat stuck to a chair shouldn't have ever gotten that big, and he didn't do it alone. There are stories like this every few years and it's horrible.

And yes, Americans are too fat. IMHO, of course.

elliemae says

This guy whose girlfriend brought him food as he sat stuck to a chair shouldn't have ever gotten that big, and he didn't do it alone. There are stories like this every few years and it's horrible.

I'm thinking Chair Guy was drawing a disability check and his money was supporting his enablers.

Dan8267 says

You keep changing your position so often as facts roll in that I'm reminded of politicians.

Point out my changes in position. Maybe I can explain.

Dan8267 says

Stop being so concerned about you being right and start being concerned about what is right.

When your point is being challenged, defend your point and stop being so concerned with the presumed qualifications of the challenger.

What I don't understand is how people get fat in the first place. Doesn't everyone at least have access to a mirror? Even if, for some reason you didn't, wouldn't you cut down on your food when your pants started to get tight? Am I missing something here???

zzyzzx says

What I don't understand is how people get fat in the first place. Doesn't everyone at least have access to a mirror? Even if, for some reason you didn't, wouldn't you cut down on your food when your pants started to get tight? Am I missing something here???

Or flip the question. Why doesn't everybody get fat when there's a superabundance of food? If everybody got fat, nobody would care what other people looked like.

There was one great evolutionary advantage to being fat. Fat people had a better chance of getting through a famine. The Pima Indians have a high rate of obesity and a well-accepted explanation is those who could pack on the pounds had the best chance of survival in their harsh environment.

But now, we have easier access to food and calorie dense foods at that. Those with more efficient metabolisms or greater hunger or whatever have a greater tendency to balloon in this environment.

Obviously, there's an issue of self-control. Some people are going to have a harder, but not impossible, struggle with their weight. And there's a few self-righteous people who have turned the obesity issue into their moralizing hobby horse.

The chair guy stories illustrate this. They said, to a large degree, TOO FAT! HOW DISGUSTING! WHATTA FREAK!! There was hardly any consideration that chair guy might have significant mental and/or physical disabilities before he plopped down for the last time or that he was poorly served by his enablers. It's likely that obesity was the least of chair guy's problems.

Cook County resident says

There was one great evolutionary advantage to being fat.

Of course, there are other evoultionary advantages to being lean and, as environments change, there's going to be a give and take between which groups are better off.

There's been some interesting research on the relationship between adenoviruses and obesity:

"Not only were obese children more likely to have antibodies to the virus — 22 percent of obese children had antibodies compared with 7 percent of normal-weight kids — but the obese kids with evidence of prior adenovirus-36 infections were on average about 35 pounds fatter than obese children who hadn’t caught the virus."

"And the timing is right for adenovirus-36 to be one factor stimulating the obesity epidemic, he says. The virus, one of 55 different types of adenovirus, was first isolated in the late 1970s. Obesity rates began to climb at about the same time, with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention documenting increases starting around 1980."

As a comment, it's unclear from the story if the virus is a new mutation, or if it's always been around in smaller populations and just recently broke out or if it's always been around and just escaped notice.

"The 10 percent of lean people with antibodies against the virus may have gotten infected recently and have not yet gained weight, or they may have had a mild infection that never reached fat cells, "

As another comment, some of these 10% may just be working harder staying lean.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/63507/description/Obesity_in_children_linked_to_common_cold_virus

The adenovirus connection is just a part of the obesity mosaic. But the research is increasing our understanding and may lead to a vaccine which will protect against that part.

You assholes are still worried about what people eat?
The day people eat sensible meals will be the day we will pay through our teeth for that sensible meal.

I think all of the hubub over what people eat, is because it's hard for investors to compete with 99 cent menus and it just pisses them off, that BK spends so much of their profits on menu items that cost less than a can of Alpo.

You all should be thankful Fat people don't vote. They can't be bothered to get out, but you know what? On second thought maybe it is good idea bashing and picking on and just generally bullying fat people. That will get them out in droves to vote the smug Democrats out of office. Fat people get irate over shit like that. Yeah that's good politics go tell fat stuff how to live, tell them you're going to tax the dollar menu.

Tenouncetrout says

I think all of the hubub over what people eat, is because it's hard for investors to compete with 99 cent menus and it just pisses them off, that BK spends so much of their profits on menu items that cost less than a can of Alpo.

You can stay slim on the 99 cent menu, just don't overeat.

There was some study recently with fast food for a month in REASONABLE PORTIONS with lost weight. University of Illinois? Can't find it right now.

Vicente says

There was some study recently with fast food for a month in REASONABLE PORTIONS with lost weight

Oh because "STUDIES" are always accurate and done by people that don't have agendas or have no stake in the outcome.

Right?

Vicente says

There was some study recently with fast food for a month in REASONABLE PORTIONS with lost weight. University of Illinois? Can't find it right now.

Is this what you are thinking of (junk food diet study done at Kansas State University)?
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Or was there another similar study at the University of Illinois?

I did see the Twinkie diet but that's not the one.

Same basic conclusion though, the CALORIE COUNT is what really matters.

The ultimate lesson of "SuperSize Me" should have been about overeating, and instead it became about fast food is bad.

Vicente says

Same basic conclusion though, the CALORIE COUNT is what really matters.

Actually this is not true. The calorie count that you read on the nutrition label is an approximation based on a standard burning of the ingredient. However, what your digestive system does is far more complex.

A recent Princeton University study demonstrates this:

A Princeton University research team has demonstrated that all sweeteners are not equal when it comes to weight gain: Rats with access to high-fructose corn syrup gained significantly more weight than those with access to table sugar, even when their overall caloric intake was the same.

The calories eaten do not translate one-for-one into calories absorbed by the body. Some chemical forms take much less work for a digestive system to process even if the chemical bonds contain the same amount of energy.

OK you got me on the use corn syrup thing, there is more to CALORIES than just a number on a label.

However it's still true that few people can get grossly overweight if they eat reasonable portions. As a nutritionist said, look at your hand. Your stomach is about the size of your fist, and if you are eating more than that you WILL have a weight problem. I worked with a guy that ate healthy-ish food always had veggies as part of his meal but my GOD every time I joined him for lunch the quantity was unbelievable. Dead at 45 of a heart attack.

Obligatory:

Vicente says

OK you got me on the use corn syrup thing

It's not about proving someone wrong. It's about refining our understanding of nature. Kepler tried for years to explain the orbits of the planets as concentric Platonic solids. The idea was wrong, and Kepler had invested much time in this pursuit.

“When Kepler found his long-cherished belief did not agree with the most precise observation, he accepted the uncomfortable fact. He preferred the hard truth to his dearest illusions; that is the heart of science.” - Carl Sagan

But perhaps, Richard Dawkins explained it best in one of his stories...

I do remember one formative influence in my undergraduate life. There was an elderly professor in my department who had been passionately keen on a particular theory for, oh, a number of years, and one day an American visiting researcher came and he completely and utterly disproved our old man's hypothesis. The old man strode to the front, shook his hand and said, "My dear fellow, I wish to thank you, I have been wrong these fifteen years". And we all clapped our hands raw. That was the scientific ideal, of somebody who had a lot invested, a lifetime almost invested in a theory, and he was rejoicing that he had been shown wrong and that scientific truth had been advanced. - Richard Dawkins

This is my philosophy on life, and I'd be happy if you could return the favor by showing any errors in my beliefs. In the end, the messenger is irrelevant. Only the message matters.

Dan8267 says

It's not about proving someone wrong. It's about refining our understanding of nature. Kepler tried for years to explain the orbits of the planets as concentric Platonic solids. The idea was wrong, and Kepler had invested much time in this pursuit.

Are you saying that some of these fatties are so fat, that they have their own gravitational pull?

zzyzzx says

Are you saying that some of these fatties are so fat, that they have their own gravitational pull?

Actually, every massive (non-zero mass) object has a gravitational pull, even a single neutrino. However, I wouldn't bother trying to measure it. Gravity is by far the weakest of the four fundamental forces.

[Physics is one of my interests.]

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/a-new-name-for-high-fructose-corn-syrup/

Y'all have it wrong - it's not high-fructose corn syrup. It's corn sugar. Duh.

Tenouncetrout says

You all should be thankful Fat people don't vote.

Nomination Time!

zzyzzx says

What I don't understand is how people get fat in the first place. Doesn't everyone at least have access to a mirror? Even if, for some reason you didn't, wouldn't you cut down on your food when your pants started to get tight? Am I missing something here???

zzyzzx says

What I don't understand is how people get fat in the first place. Doesn't everyone at least have access to a mirror? Even if, for some reason you didn't, wouldn't you cut down on your food when your pants started to get tight? Am I missing something here???

zzyzzx says

What I don't understand is how people get fat in the first place. Doesn't everyone at least have access to a mirror? Even if, for some reason you didn't, wouldn't you cut down on your food when your pants started to get tight? Am I missing something here???

People get fat because of the food pyramid. Because doctors and nutritionists as a whole, are confused. They get fat because of their diets. They stay fat because of the ill advised solution, to eat less and exercise more. Fat people are fat because of eating carbohydrates

The hormone insulin regulates how the body decides to store fat. People on a diet that includes carbohydrates, may become insulin resistant. Then their body cannot properly regulate fat storage

As vicente wrongly stated, its the CALORIES that matter. This is the false paradigm the majority of the citizenry operates under. That fat people are fat because they are lazy and eat too much. That the solution is to eat less, and move around more. I thought like this myself for the longest time. And I was fat! So I did what any other reasonable person would do, I ate less and moved around more. This worked to a point, but I was always hungry, and would always feel that I didn't have energy

Then I asked myself, what if we are all wrong? What if its not a matter of limiting caloric intake and increasing physical activity. After all, that makes us hungry. What if the solution could be found in my dietary inputs. What if there was a way to safely satiate my hungers. In february, I found the answer. I cut carbs out of my diet, began eating more meat and especially animal fats. I stopped trying to exercise as much, outside of the occasional couple mile hike with my dog. Magically, I lost 50lbs in four months, with relative ease. On a diet of bacon and eggs for breakfast, grilled chix on a salad w/ blue cheese for lunch, and a big fat steak for supper (16+ oz with a healthy amount of fat on it, yum!)

Its the carbohydrates, stupid!

Gary taubes wrote an excellent book recently, as a follow up to Good Calories, Bad Calories, titled Why we get Fat, and what to do about it. Xxyxxz, if you want answers, they are contained in that book. Slightly over 200 pages and very easy to read (less then ten hours), I strongly reccomend. He makes connections to the majority of modern mans health issues to our dietary inputs and exclusions. Low fat, high carb diets, make you stupid. Literally. Insulin resistance (or metabolic syndrome) may be to blame for not only obesity and diabetes and the array of problems that accompany, but also hypertension, heart attacks, cancer, alzhiemers, crohns disease,,,,,,,,

Ask yourself, what are the nutritional benefits of carbohydrates?
How can the body properly function without animal fats?
How does the brain get its food, in a diet with inadequate animal fat?
How can someone lose 50lbs by removing carbs from their diet and replacing them with bacon and cheesy eggs, and fatty cuts of steak?

as much as possible. which is most of the time. lunch on the go sometimes

In the post-debt-crisis America, fat Americans will be judged an asset.

They will be judged "yummy".

Vicente says

In the post-debt-crisis America, fat Americans will be judged an asset.

They will be judged "yummy".

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

Bankster boiled with ham and green beens (go figure all this time learning to plant and grow potatoes and all for what, just to eat oneself sick)

"There's nothing with being fat as long as I don't have to cut your sorry ass from a maggot infested chair. It scars my life."

There are more health problems associated with being overweight as one grows old - more joints need replaced, chronic pain, chronic disease processes....

The trick is to eat well but not too much - and get your sorry ass up to exercise. We've become too sedentary.

elliemae says

and get your sorry ass up to exercise. We've become too sedentary.

I blame the predators. They have not been doing their jobs. When was the last time you ran from a lion? 'Nuff said.

errc says

Fat people are fat because of eating carbohydrates

This is so simplistic it's ridiculous. It really is moderation and staying active, and eating REAL foods. I have never been fat, but I did balloon up to nearly 150lbs when my proper weight is between 115-125. I tried everything. The no-carbs, high fat and protein diet made me extremely ill. The only thing that finally worked for me was Weight Watchers, which through the point system made me really think about portion sizes. I lost nearly 30lbs in 4 months and have kept it off for over a year. I also only eat real foods, mainly cooked at home. I still eat loads of bread, pasta, and rice, but in moderation. I also eat meat, dairy, and drink quite a bit of beer. For me, the enemy was wine, fruit juice, basically any fruit sugars, I have to really watch how much of that I eat.

It's very individual. But the ONE constant is eating real foods in moderate portions.

The trick is eat in the morning after you wake up, not at night, before you go to bed.

As far as what you eat, the different people in the world and the myriad of diverse diets they eat, stand testament to people are full of shit, when they say this is good and that is bad.

We're in a different place with respect to evolution than we were 500, 1000, or even 5000 years ago. There used to be an advantage to having attributes which allowed you to store fat better than the next person. You might even make it through the times of scarcity (which killed the type A dude who was getting all the women), and then you get to reproduce.

So having a metabolism or other factors causing one to get fat easily used to be a good thing.

But now we are trying to live way past 78 years of age, and fat is no longer as much of a good thing. Now we might start being rewarded for not storing fat well.

I'm rambling here, but I think someone might be able to put together an argument from all of this that there is still some upside in our longevity. That is not in the near term necessarily, but I can see average life expectancy being over 100 eventually.

That is if we ever get past the political infancy related bs we (myself included) spend so much time talking about in this form.

Then again, I'm not very overweight, and being in my mid fifties I'm feeling my age. So I might be wrong.

Besides, we don't reproduce when we are old. Another reason my theory above might be lacking. I can see it now, "I'm so attracted to you because you're great grandparents are all still alive." (sorry digressing too far from the subject of calories and what not)

I lost 30lbs in two weeks before..light construction (mostly steel), switching from beer to jack and diet coke..

Years later I'm back to the same weight but it is more muscle than fat. Weight alone is not what should be targeted.

I try to eat a ton of protein in the morning. toast w/ peanut butter, greek yogurt, black coffee, fruit, cereal, egg whites... it adds up to have less of a lunch.

If you eat well then eating junk feels more toxic. I cannot eat fast food (mcdonalds, burger king etc). Subshops can be ok. I tried spam for the first time in decades and I could feel my blood pressure going up.

I can taste the salt in food.. restaurants are filled with it (probably to get you to drink more). I try to avoid HFCS..there's been a backlash actually..more products advertise that they are not made with it.

Dan8267 says

elliemae says

and get your sorry ass up to exercise. We've become too sedentary.

I blame the predators. They have not been doing their jobs. When was the last time you ran from a lion?

I tested my fight or flight defenses recently when I was in a bar & a good looking younger guy came up and bought me a drink. I was chased off by two cougars.

They're mean when you encroach on their territory. Next time I'll bring some fresh meat to toss to the side as a diversion. USDA Grade Prime Choice Select on the hoof - my son and a couple of his friends.