patrick.net

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

It sounds like the lily white Dayton Police Department needs to fix their fucking test and hiring practices, not lower the scores. Blaming the problem on Obama and the DOJ is the height of idiocy.

Perhaps they should take a note from the LAPD that recruits heavily in minority communities to increase minority test takers. Lowering the threshold for test scoring is stupid, silly, ignorant, and an attempt to play the race card so media stories like this get out.

The test should require an understanding of Black English Vernacular (you know, the dialect derided as Ebonics by racists). Cops who can't talk the talk shouldn't walk the walk. LAPD requires proficiencies in Spanish, Korean, and dozens of other languages and dialects.

Hey Dayton, join the 21st Century you imbeciles!

SoCal Renter says

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

Very interesting. SoCal Renter quotes the local head of the NAACP and doesn't seem to understand that he is AGAINST the current practice of lowering the test standards in order to qualify Black test takers.

SoCal Renter says

The test should require an understanding of Black English Vernacular (you know, the dialect derided as Ebonics by racists).

I guess there must be a lot of Black "racists" because there were a lot of Blacks referring to "Ebonics" as a particular vernacular used within the Black community.

SoCal Renter says

Hey Daton, join the 21st Century you imbeciles!

At least those "imbeciles" know how to spell "Daton." LOL

RayAmerica says

SoCal Renter says

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

Very interesting. SoCal Renter quotes the local head of the NAACP and doesn’t seem to understand that he is AGAINST the current practice of lowering the test standards in order to qualify Black test takers.

No, I understand that the NAACP is rightly against lowering the standards. That's my point too. The test scores aren't the problem. The test and hiring practices are the problem.

RayAmerica says

SoCal Renter says

The test should require an understanding of Black English Vernacular (you know, the dialect derided as Ebonics by racists).

I guess there must be a lot of Black “racists” because there were a lot of Blacks referring to “Ebonics” as a particular vernacular used within the Black community.

You misunderstand. The name "Ebonics" isn't racist, it was coined by Professor Robert Williams who is black. It's the derision now associated with it in much of the White community that I'm pointing out. This is important because:

Dr. Williams created the Black Intelligence Test of Cultural Homogeneity by drawing from a glossary of African-American vernacular and personal experience.[5] “Danger: Testing and De-humanizing Black Children” Though structured similarly to traditional IQ testing, European Americans scored consistently lower on the BITCH than African Americans. Dr. Williams did not conclude, as had white psychologists, that this proved the intellectual inferiority of European Americans.

I think Dayton needs a test similar to BITCH that accounts for community vernacular and culture.

RayAmerica says

SoCal Renter says

Hey Dayton, join the 21st Century you imbeciles!

At least those “imbeciles” know how to spell “Daton.” LOL

Fixed.

You're entirely missing the point, Ray.

The test did no have to do with performance as a police officer, and that's why they had to settle. The law in question is this:

Title VII prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin or religion. Title VII prohibits not only intentional discrimination, but also the use of employment practices (e.g. written examinations and qualification standards), which result in disparate impact, unless the employer can prove that such practices are job related and consistent with business necessity.

Are you for tests that are not job related? That's whole reason Dayton settled the case. They knew they could not show their test was job related.

What would you think if the test asked questions about hip-hop lyrics that caused blacks to do better, even though it has nothing to do with being a cop? Would that be a fair test?

MarkInSF says

The test did no have to do with performance as a police officer, and that’s why they had to settle.

The test had nothing to do with the law you cite. Discrimination in the test was never even an allegation, so where you get this is beyond me.

Read the story ... in part:

DAYTON -- The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits.

It's a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.

Dayton is in desperate need of officers to replace dozens of retirees. The hiring process was postponed for months because the D.O.J. rejected the original scores provided by the Dayton Civil Service Board, which administers the test.

Under the previous requirements, candidates had to get a 66% on part one of the exam and a 72% on part two.

The D.O.J. approved new scoring policy only requires potential police officers to get a 58% and a 63%. That's the equivalent of an ‘F’ and a ‘D’.

Direct quote from the President of the Dayton NAACP:

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

“If you lower the score for any group of people, you're not getting the best qualified people for the job,” Foward said.

Bubble Bobble says

These people recieve a book that goes over all of the required information on the exam. This is information that can and will save your life, and is not something to be trivialized, simplified, or ignored.

Actually, I don't think you know what's on the test. (Neither do I).

Bubble Bobble says

I doubt what you are seeing is a racist conspiracy, it’s that the people who don’t pass, dont study!

What we know is what they (the people doing the hiring) did not do. They did not find a way to hire African Americans who have plenty of potential to be good cops, to balance out the department as it should be.

They did not do that. Maybe this is an honest mistake, and it's not that hard to see how it could happen. Considering that being a cop is such a coveted job because of the huge government benefits, causing so many people to apply. Causing WAY WAY too many to apply. So how do they whittle down the number of applicants, so that they don't have to interview too many ? They write a test that is actually pretty difficult (that is that doesn't have very many easy questions). The test may be overkill, in that it ends up to a degree testing education level, beyond what is needed for the job, but it helps reduce the number of eligible candidates to a manageable level.

I could see this happening, and I can also see way more white applicants than black.

There are many ways in fact that this situation could arise without a conscious or even unconscious attempt to preclude African Americans from being hired.

Still, it is true that what they didn't do is find a good way to balance out the hirees, to slowly bring the racial balance of the department in to balance with the community. OR at least move it in that direction. (the fire dept WENT DOWN TO 3%)

And that is something they should have done, without going through this battle with the federal govt., which is insulting and misleading with its implications.

Ray, is this really that hard to comprehend ( ha,..as if Ray could ever consider such a thing) ? I just hope Ray is at least 76 because in that case I understand. Learning at some point, unfortunately, gets really difficult.

elliemae says

Some people read an article, then make up their mind. Others make up their mind and find articles to support their position - then post it on a real estate forum on the interwebs in an attempt to bait people into a fight.

Extremely accurate.

marcus says

Ray, is this really that hard to comprehend ( ha,..as if Ray could ever consider such a thing) ? I just hope Ray is at least 76 because in that case I understand. Learning at some point, unfortunately, gets really difficult.

Let's leave his IQ out of this!

I'm on the side of the President of the Dayton NAACP. Which side are you lefties on?

Direct quote from the President of the Dayton NAACP:

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

“If you lower the score for any group of people, you’re not getting the best qualified people for the job,” Foward said.

marcus says

What we know is what they (the people doing the hiring) did not do. They did not find a way to hire African Americans who have plenty of potential to be good cops, to balance out the department as it should be.

ROFL !!! The Civil Service Commission administers the test for the Dayton Police Department. As governed by law, the applicants must pass the exam in order to qualify for appointment to the department. What "way" is it that you wanted them to "find a way to hire African Americans?"

RayAmerica says

The test had nothing to do with the law you cite.

Yes it does. That is exactly the law that was cited in the lawsuit.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/February/09-crt-172.html

Discrimination in the test was never even an allegation, so where you get this is beyond me.

You can see exactly there what it alleges:

Justice Department Settles Lawsuit Against the City of Dayton, Ohio, Alleging Discrimination Against African Americans in the Hiring of Police Officers...

The United States’ complaint, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Ohio in September 2008, alleges that Dayton’s use of an internally created written examination......resulted in disparate impact on African-Americans. The complaint also alleges that neither practice has been demonstrated by the city of Dayton to be job related and consistent with business necessity, in accordance with the requirements of Title VII.

All they had to do was show that the test was "job related and consistant with business necessity". What's your objection to that?

Mark ... the test given recently WAS adjusted in order to comply with the settlement with the D.O.J. This test made the necessary adjustments and was approved by the D.O.J. The test was then given, and there were zero Blacks that passed the test. The next move by the D.O.J. was to order the test standards be lowered in order to qualify Blacks. Precisely what the NAACP objected to. Had the CURRENT test reflected "discrimination," do you honestly believe the President of the Dayton NAACP would support the Dayton Police?

I don't think we should lower standards to increase employment. Standards are there for a reason, usually public safety.

Tests shouldn't be based on number of people passing/failing. It's there to prove certain level of understanding and mastery. I remember back when I was in high school only 2 people in our entire school passed the AP test for physics... but those two knew their stuff. If test qualifications were lowered, we'd have engineers that build buildings that would not be structurally safe.

RayAmerica says

Mark … the test given recently WAS adjusted in order to comply with the settlement with the D.O.J. This test made the necessary adjustments and was approved by the D.O.J. The test was then given, and there were zero Blacks that passed the test. The next move by the D.O.J. was to order the test standards be lowered in order to qualify Blacks. Precisely what the NAACP objected to. Had the CURRENT test reflected “discrimination,” do you honestly believe the President of the Dayton NAACP would support the Dayton Police?

I looks like you're right. Dayton already hired a firm to design a test that would reflect knowledge needed for the job. I think I have to agree with you on this one. I'm all for efforts to integrate society and give opportunity to those that may not otherwise have it, but this does look like the misapplication of a law designed to prevent discrimination.

http://www.ohio-share.coxnewsweb.com/News-share/Local_News-share/more-than-1-000-show-up-for-dayton-police-exam--1009296.html

Out of 3500 that applied to take the test, only 21% were minorities. I don't know what other cities have done in the past to deal with this situation. I don't like them dumbing down the test, but they have a problem if their police dept is 10% back and fire dept is 3% black. It goes beyond left vs right or political correctness. Police are a very unique city employee because of the way that they interface with the community.

Other cities have dealt with this in more intelligent ways.

Recruiting seems to be part of the problem, or rather the solution that they couldn't find.

Also, it's worth noting that lowering the test scores bar is lowering the standard for ADMISSION in to the police academy. IT should be easy enough to then maintain high standard for getting through the academy. It is sad that Dayton couldn't recognize the problem and deal with it as all other major cities have, without the feds feeling they had to come in.

Most major cities were doing much better with this kind of thing by 1980. What are they, Neanderthals over there ?

If the fed did over step their bounds, it's only because Dayton was so unable to recognize and deal with the problem.

And yes, not having a diverse police force in a diverse city is a big problem, as I said, because of the way that the police interfaces with the community, including of course the black community.

I really found the posts on this thread fascinating even though I wasn't surprised by their content. It took some time, but eventually people put their "it has to be racism" accusations on hold due to the fact that the President of the Dayton NAACP criticized the lowering of test standards. What I found fascinating is how long it took for that fact to finally sink in.

Quotas and affirmative action does nothing but provide artificial opportunities for a very limited number of people that benefit from such policies. What it does a very good job at is in further dividing, unnecessarily so, Blacks and Whites due to these unfair, polarizing practices. MLK had the right goal; level the playing field for all people and basically let the market take it from there.

MLK was a rarity. I haven't seen many folks out there who try to do that. Everyone just attempts to divide and gain market share. Even Obama for first 2 years kept on dividing the country riding the wave of discontent. It backfired finally so he is now trying to get back to the middle.

Ray,

Fess up, you have no sincere interest in Dayton Ohio police force and it's efficacy. All that matters is the conclusion:

"Just another example of radical liberalism at work."

Nothing new here. In fact many of your posts are just THAT, and work backward by picking out some tempest in a teapot to throw above it.

Be careful about all that patting yourself on the back you might take a nasty spill climbing down from your soapbox.

Vicente says

Ray,
Fess up, you have no sincere interest in Dayton Ohio police force and it’s efficacy. All that matters is the conclusion:
“Just another example of radical liberalism at work.”

You are partially correct. Dayton is nothing other than a microcosm example of what happens when Liberalism forces its will upon American citizens in order to achieve a social goal they favor. While it is a noble effort to attempt to hire minorities on the force, it is not noble to do so in such a way that results in the denial of more qualified people (citizens) from being hired ... strictly because their skin (White) is the wrong color, precisely what MLK was against. Radical Liberalism has a certain amount of appeal to the emotions; I'll grant that. But where it fails is in real world practices. To deny people employment solely because they are not Black is offensive to the goals we should all strive for; a society that is truly color blind.

Bubble Bobble says

I hate this logic.

But I said:

marcus says

It goes beyond left vs right or political correctness. Police are a very unique city employee because of the way that they interface with the community.

And in another comment, I said:

marcus says

And yes, not having a diverse police force in a diverse city is a big problem, as I said, because of the way that the police interfaces with the community, including of course the black community.

It's the police.
It's the police.
It's the police.
It's the police.
It's the police.
It's the police.
It's the police.
It's the police.
And fire department.

I didn't say all corporations, although most do this voluntarily, for the good of the community. Increased role models etc., and for the good of their own community, and their own future community.

And I said that I don't believe in this kind of affirmative action for law schools or medical schools.

RayAmerica says

But where it fails is in real world practices. To deny people employment solely because they are not Black is offensive to the goals we should all strive for; a society that is truly color blind.

I still say that you're making a big deal out of this is an expression of your racism.

And basically I still believe that Dayton's inability to do what major cities like Chicago did thirty five years ago, is a reflection of racism. It's just more subtle because the racists (like you) use what sounds like a reasonable argument, to justify their racist tendencies.

You are arguing basically, "Sure in this all black neighborhood, we could see the benefit of having maybe even half of the cops black. But oh, sorry there were too many white applicants that scored higher, on the entrance test to the academy." It's not a "noble" goal in this case, it's downright practical for many reasons.

Also, there is a chicken and egg aspects to this (way beyond Ray's consideration or comprehension). The longer the percentage is held low, the longer too many in the back community will see cops as "pigs." Once the issue is forced a little, with more good role model black cops, and a more open friendly image to the Dayton PD, the more black applicants you will get.

Dayton Police is where major US cities were in 1970.

Are all the white folk in Ohio, Neanderthals ?

RayAmerica says

to deny people employment solely because they are not Black is offensive to the goals we should all strive for; a society that is truly color blind.

IF over 40% of Dayton is African American, then I have to believe there are many HUGE neighborhoods that are all black, or nearly all black. Do you think that the white police in those neighborhoods or the African Americans encountering the white cops in those neighborhoods are anywhere near color blind ???

You sound like you are Archie bunker, stepping right out of 1970.

marcus says

You are arguing basically, “Sure in this all black neighborhood, we could see the benefit of having maybe even half of the cops black. But oh, sorry there were too many white applicants that scored higher, on the entrance test to the academy.”

Your inability to comprehend is astonishing. It wasn't that "there were too many white applicants that scored higher," it was in fact ZERO blacks passed the test!

RayAmerica says

Your inability to comprehend is astonishing

Okay, then maybe you should just call me meathead.

elliemae says

As a troll, rayray’s purpose is to write incendiary posts and then personally attack anyone who responds. He’s not interested in a conversation - and the valid points about the bias of the testing and the lack of diversity in the police/fire departments are probably fluff to him.

LMAO....I somewhat agree though with Ray that testing standards should not be lowered. Maybe the parenting standards and socioeconomic decisions in the Black community need to be raised?

RayAmerica says

Like me, these people had nothing to do with the injustices that took place in this country and therefore feel these injustices should not be perpetrated upon other innocent people; in this case, the White people that took the test and passed. The goal in this country, in my opinion, should be equal opportunity. By lowering test standards in order to achieve racial balance is perpetrating the same type of racial injustice that was committed against innocent people in the past. We should be striving for unity based on equal opportunities for all. Achieving quotas by punishing innocent people should be recognized and disdained by all that seek a more equal and just society.

99.999998% in agreeance...Six Sigma.

I do say that we need to force educational systems to give low income children some preference. Regardless of race or sex or height or weight...to quote BAP33. LOL

RayAmerica says

marcus says

You are arguing basically, “Sure in this all black neighborhood, we could see the benefit of having maybe even half of the cops black. But oh, sorry there were too many white applicants that scored higher, on the entrance test to the academy.”

Your inability to comprehend is astonishing. It wasn’t that “there were too many white applicants that scored higher,” it was in fact ZERO blacks passed the test!

If the white applicants scored higher on a test for a job in a black neighborhood then why should they not get the job?....I took an IQ test for a job 2 years ago and scored at a genius level, well above other applicants. Had I of not received the job I would have proclaimed racial discrimination to the high heavens.

Just because a job is in a black community does not mean it is reserved for black people who are not capable of passing the tests required for duty. Now, that being said, Elliemae made a good point about the tests not accurately reflecting the applicants ability to do the job. I dont think IQ equates to work ethic very well.

marcus says

Dayton Police is where major US cities were in 1970.

I think it has to do with the "all boys network" syndrome, maybe the Dayton Police prefers to higher familiar faces. Which, is not right but if the test results are the 1 deciding factor black people in the area need to step up their education levels.

Apparently Marcus must have flagged several of my posts and Patrick removed them, even though there was absolutely nothing offensive in any of them. Not only does Marcus indicate racism against white people, he also is in favor of silencing them as well. Way to go Marcus. Apparently the President of the Dayton NAACP should be silenced by you as well, because I am in complete agreement with his position.

I wonder why this offensive post wasn't removed? Actually, I'm not offended because I know it isn't true. LOL

marcus says

Are all the white folk in Ohio, Neanderthals ?

Attention Marcus .... read it very slow and try to think what is being said:

Clarence 13X says

If the white applicants scored higher on a test for a job in a black neighborhood then why should they not get the job?….

nastyorcjealousgreenmonster says

Rayray says

Apparently Marcus must have flagged several of my posts and Patrick removed them

More than one person has to flag (according to the flag text that comes up) and then it gets placed into moderation for Patrick to review.
You can find out how many of your posts are in moderation here: http://patrick.net/wp-admin/moderation.php

Together forever.

RayAmerica says

Attention Marcus …. read it very slow and try to think what is being said:

Clarence 13X says

If the white applicants scored higher on a test for a job in a black neighborhood then why should they not get the job?….

I understand your point. As it stands now they get what 3500 applicants 1/5th of whom are minorities. The article I posted above had 1000 people taking that test at once, for a small number of openings. What you people don't realize is that we don't know whether 68 is a reasonable cut off (that is we don't know how hard the test is).

You could write a test that every literate person will get a 100% on, or you can write a test where even geniuses will get a zero. We just don't know where 68% actually is. But we do know the test is used to screen the 1000s of people who want to be Dayton cops.

I get your point about the test. And I will say this again slowly for you Ray, Shrek and anyone else who can't fathom my point. I understand that they use this test now as a bar. I am only saying that if they wanted to, over the years, (maybe even long ago) they could have figured out some way to hire more black cops.

If they had done so, they would have been doing a huge service to their community on many levels. And if they had done so, I guarantee, that here in modern times (2011) there would be many more black applicants, and many more scoring over whatever their cut off is.

Congratulations. Well done Dayton !!

RayAmerica says

Apparently Marcus must have flagged several of my posts and Patrick removed them, even though there was absolutely nothing offensive in any of them. Not only does Marcus indicate racism against white people, he also is in favor of silencing them as well. Way to go Marcus. Apparently the President of the Dayton NAACP should be silenced by you as well, because I am in complete agreement with his position.

I work during the day when you posted whatever.

I've said a lot here, but this summarizes my point of view.

marcus says

Out of 3500 that applied to take the test, only 21% were minorities. I don’t know what other cities have done in the past to deal with this situation. I don’t like them dumbing down the test, but they have a problem if their police dept is 10% back and fire dept is 3% black. It goes beyond left vs right or political correctness. Police are a very unique city employee because of the way that they interface with the community.

Other cities have dealt with this in more intelligent ways.

simchaland says

More than one person has to flag (according to the flag text that comes up) and then it gets placed into moderation for Patrick to review.

Yup, and I deleted some direct insults.

Hard to keep up though. I think people actually enjoy insulting and being insulted in some weird way.

Hard to keep up though. I think people actually enjoy insulting and being insulted in some weird way.

I think some people just love to argue over internet, it is strange, but it's some sort of new generations phenomena.

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/how-win-any.php

ChrisLA says

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/how-win-any.php

LOL. That article is hilarious.

shrekgrinch says

Clarence 13X says

Maybe the parenting standards and socioeconomic decisions in the Black community need to be raised?

Praise Bill Cosby!

LMAO...I love Bill Cosby. After 40 years of affirmative action and welfare states the community needs to move past the civil protest era of WEB Dubois and start following Booker T Washington to the schoolyard.