patrick.net

elliemae says

Just because you assert that “1 in 10,000 patients admitted to the hospital would have lived for 3 months or more had “optimal” care been provided,”

I'm not "asserting" anything (look up the meaning of the word). The "assertion" you claim I quoted is from the Journal of the American Medcial Association. I haved a funny feeling they might know a little more on the subject than you. Take up your argument with them.

LOL.

It's as if Japan, Canada, Singapore, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Italy don't exist in your world.

Hell, even the UK's NHS is better than our system.

Let's get down to brass tacks. You don't want to pay for someone else's medical care. You want our current three-tiered system (nothing for 30% of the country, shitty coverage for 40%, and primo coverage for the privileged 30%) since you personally have got yours in the priveleged group and that's that.

(if you're actually not in the privileged tier -- kudos for being an ideologically-driven idiot)

Me, I've "got mine" too, at least until Blue Shield boots me out or jacks my premiums past to what I can afford when I hit my 50s.

Medical care needs to be "prepaid" like our social security system is. Wage-earners overpay starting out but underpay in their old age. This requires government intervention since people in their 20s think they're immortal. I know I did -- I didn't carry coverage from age 25 to 30 and it never crossed my mind that I needed to.

(actually, since I was a legal resident of Japan at the time I probably didn't need to carry coverage, dunno)

We also need rather stringent profit controls on medical goods and services. Don't look to the free market for this, clown.

Yet bullshitters like you Ray defend the current system.

The problem isn't mandated insurance, it's a poorly regulated market. Kinda similar to the mortgage market of the previous decade if you squint your eyes -- asymmetrical information, impenetrable terms of service, unknown future costs, colossal profit margins, and government agencies insuring against loss that encourages moral hazard.

Market. Failure.

Troy says

We also need rather stringent profit controls on medical goods and services. Don’t look to the free market for this, clown.

Thanks for calling me a "clown." Coming from you, that is a true compliment. If, IF you actually read my post, you would have noticed that I basically TRASHED the current medical system. But of course, actually reading what a conservative posts would get in the way of your predetermined suppositions. Leftists love to tout themselves as “open minded” individuals that think and consider all sides of an issue. Few things could be further from the truth. You’ve provided a very good example to illustrate that truth. Thank you.

RayAmerica says

The “assertion” you claim I quoted is from the Journal of the American Medcial Association.

I tried to look up the "American Medcial Association." It doesn't exist.

elliemae says

I tried to look up the “American Medcial Association.” It doesn’t exist.

You're making this way too easy. Try harder .... like in really, really harder.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

I tried to look up the “American Medcial Association.” It doesn’t exist.

You’re making this way too easy. Try harder …. like in really, really harder.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/

1. You don't need a period after dot-dot-dot
2. "like in" would actually be better served if it were correctly stated as "Like, as in..." or "As in..."
3. "...really, really harder?"
I forgot what you were trying to say.

elliemae says

1. You don’t need a period after dot-dot-dot
2. “like in” would actually be better served if it were correctly stated as “Like, as in…” or “As in…”
3. “…really, really harder?”
I forgot what you were trying to say.

Sorry for the dot dot dots .... back to the real .... issue. Are you willing to admit that you were wrong? LOL

Millions of "intelligent" people don't trust traditional medicine because they're delusional crackpots who believe in homeopathy (who cares about the laws of physics?) and craniosacral therapy (HOLY SHIT YOU CAN MOVE MY SKULL BONES?).

I'm not saying that medical practice is perfect (far from it), but please don't use stupid arguments like this.

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

1. You don’t need a period after dot-dot-dot
2. “like in” would actually be better served if it were correctly stated as “Like, as in…” or “As in…”
3. “…really, really harder?”
I forgot what you were trying to say.

Sorry for the dot dot dots …. back to the real …. issue. Are you willing to admit that you were wrong? LOL

No, because I'm not. FYI, those people who disagree with you aren't wrong. You are talking semantics when you cite studies such as the one above. Your citation doesn't prove anything beyond that you are able to find something on the interweb and use it to support your opinion. You are too fixated on being right all of the time.

Which you are not, by the way.

Yawn.

elliemae says

Yawn.

I happened to notice you didn't admit that the Journal of the American Medical Association exists, after you asserted:
elliemae says

I tried to look up the “American Medcial Association.” It doesn’t exist.

It must be very difficult for Leftists to admit they're WRONG. LOL

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Yawn.

I happened to notice you didn’t admit that the Journal of the American Medical Association exists, after you asserted:
elliemae says

I tried to look up the “American Medcial Association.” It doesn’t exist.

It must be very difficult for Leftists to admit they’re WRONG. LOL

Yawn.

Just wondering if you get it, yet.
You spelled "Medical" as "Medcial." Therefore, to all of you keeping score, Ray Ray was wrong. But I'm guessing that the only one keeping score is Ray Ray. The rest of us have lives.

elliemae says

Yawn.

elliemae says

Yawn.

It appears being WRONG makes you very, very sleepy.

elliemae says

The rest of us have lives.

Judging by the number of posts and comments you've made in here, you've spent a lot more of your life in here than I have.

Yea - I've been posting here about 3 years, give or take (FYI, the date by the icon is the date signed onto the new forum, not the old one). Since a chunk of my professional life is spent online, I check patnet several times a day. In fact, there are several of us who've been here for quite some time. What's your point?

Arguing with you is like arguing with a small child - the only difference is that, at some point, a child matures. You sure are fixated on wishing you could be right.

I guess that now is the time that you stoop to making a personal attack. But none of it supports your original argument, which was difficult to understand at best.

I don't want our government to pass any healthcare bill, because it will be totally in favor of the corporations. I hate the way it is and I would hate the way it might be. Basically, we are totally screwed.

There is no way out. Head for the hills. It's everyone for themselves now.

This entire thread strikes me as slightly ironic. The poster complains about how many problems we have with our current health care system, but then ends it by saying he doesn't want to change it. How does that make sense?

The Little Guy Lobby made that comment.

Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

That, and I questioned why he insists upon calling me names, which detract from his message, whatever it might possibly be.

And then there's his constant childish demands to have others admit that he's right.

After which, the original message, which most of us have forgotten and with which many of us disagreed due to his failure to factually substantiate his position, was lost.

Yep, that'll about sum it up.

I'm not saying that alternative treatments don't work - but sometimes they're no replacement for modern medicine. I've seen a lot of people die trying ozone treatments and vegetarian diets and vitamins and - well, you get the picture.

Some people say that natural is the only way to go. I wouldn't be walking right now if I listened to them. It's important to understand that some treatments work for some, but there isn't any one treatment that works every time.

People who are critically ill grasp at any type of cure possible. I've seen people spend thousands of dollars trying to get better right before they die.

elliemae says

That, and I questioned why he insists upon calling me names, which detract from his message, whatever it might possibly be.

LOL !! Please copy and paste exactly where and when I "called you names."

elliemae says

And then there’s his constant childish demands to have others admit that he’s right.

More LOL !! Again, copy and paste where and when I ever "demanded" others to admit I'm right. LOL

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I'm coming from. Modern "medicine" usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma ... listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered "crackpots." To illustrate that point read Kevin's comment.

RayAmerica says

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I’m coming from. Modern “medicine” usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma … listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered “crackpots.” To illustrate that point read Kevin’s comment.

Your problem is that you're equating anything not involving surgery or controlled medications as "alternative", which isn't remotely true. Medical professionals routinely prescribe what they feel is the best way to treat an ailment -- sometimes that means a prescription, sometimes it means surgery, sometimes it means "stick some ice on it", sometimes it means "get more sleep", sometimes it means massage, sometimes it means eating better.

However, things like homeopathy *ARE* crackpot bullshit with absolutely no basis in reality, and the people peddling them should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh, but of course whatever treatment that you want to advocate that has never shown results in any scientific study *MUST* just be getting covered up by the pharmaceutical lobby.

RayAmerica says

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I’m coming from. Modern “medicine” usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma … listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered “crackpots.” To illustrate that point read Kevin’s comment.

You forgot to mention Physical Therapy, Occupational Therapy, Speech Therapy...

RayAmerica says

I asked you to provide proof that I’ve called YOU names …. and you answer by writing a book. Nice to know you’ve spent the better part of a nice day wasting your time on this. LOL

Okay, I'll bite. "bitter" and "xonophobic" (sp) aren't names?

I didn't spend the better part of a nice day with those examples of your rudeness and inability to participate in a discussion, although I did spend about ten minutes on it. And the books that I write are substantially longer than 264 words.

I believe that your posts are laughable based on your inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to your lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions you come up with. I forgot to mention that you YELL alot, too. You are difficult to take seriously.

Nomo - I can't figure what it's about. I shoulda cut bait long ago. But I cannot look away.

elliemae says

Okay, I’ll bite. “bitter” and “xonophobic” (sp) aren’t names?

uhhhh, no, they are not names. LOL

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Okay, I’ll bite. “bitter” and “xonophobic” (sp) aren’t names?

uhhhh, no, they are not names. LOL

Yes, yes they are, I named my Parrot 'Bitter', because he always says: "Squaaaak. . . Crappy food. . . SQUAAAAAK!', and I named my red Gunea Pig: 'xonophobic', (actually xenophobic) because he does not get along the tan ones.

elliemae says

Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

elliemae says

The OP is saying that he/she trusts the Realtor even tho he lives in another state; we’re merely pointing out that our experience is that Realtors’ jobs are to sell houses. Their salary depends upon someone buying the property, and I don’t trust them because that makes it that they’re working for themselves.

Great "command" there elliemae, particularly that last sentence. LOL !!

Well, if frodo says they're names, that's good enough for me.

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

elliemae says
The OP is saying that he/she trusts the Realtor even tho he lives in another state; we’re merely pointing out that our experience is that Realtors’ jobs are to sell houses. Their salary depends upon someone buying the property, and I don’t trust them because that makes it that they’re working for themselves.
Great “command” there elliemae, particularly that last sentence. LOL !!

yea, well, I wrote the book...

Wait, I thought Right-Thinking Americans trusted corporations. I'm all confused now.

Nah - I'm not saying that alternative treatments can't be effective. It's just that for every one that's effective (chiropractic, accupunture, accupressure, Ayurveda, etc), there's a pie-in-the-sky treatment that's touted as the latest, greatest thing. People want to be cured so badly that they'll buy anything, and there's always someone waiting in the wings to take their money. For example:

http://www.healthcastle.com/coralcalcium-scam.shtml
According to the coral calcium infomercial, taking coral calcium can cure up to 200 human diseases including heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html
Antineoplastons, Protocel, CSCT, Gerson Method (coffee enemas plus low sodium diet including more than a gallon a day of juices made from fruits, vegetables, and raw calf's liver), hyperoxygenation therapies, laetrile, psychic surgery... and the latest, greatest - the acai berry. It "cures" everything, makes you lose weight, etc. It slices, dices, chops & purees!

Let's talk weight loss:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/01/trudeau.shtm
A federal judge has ordered infomercial marketer Kevin Trudeau to pay more than $37 million for violating a 2004 stipulated order by misrepresenting the content of his book, “The Weight Loss Cure ‘They’ Don’t Want You to Know About.”

http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/2007/11/14/7_ways_to_spot_a_weight_loss_scam.php

Our modern system isn't perfect and I've seen some horrible stuff - people treated for diseases they didn't have, surgeries performed on the wrong limb, people who died... But it does help many, many people. We need to offer payment for certain treatments, but where does one draw the line?

Zlxr says

Pay attention to Drs. who discover what works instead of trying to put them out of business.

Many docs will prescribe antibiotics rather than have to deal with angry moms who want a pill for little Johnny. I get that. I also get that we don't lend enough credibility to alternative medicines. But we need to fix healthcare overall, and this means a honest dialog.

I've yet to hear one.

Zlxr says

What, in your opinion is an honest dialog?

one by & for those who make the laws. I don't think any of them are reading patnet.

Ugh!

I'm so tired of allegedly "intelligent" people from Berkeley, San Francisco, Marin County, and Santa Cruz throwing out science for superstition.

Look, vaccines work and they don't cause autism. Look up the actual scientific studies, not the ones that use fear mongering and "woo-woo pseudo-science." I can't wait to see the children of these Marin/Santa Cruz "genuises" wiped out by Measels, Mumps, Diptheria, Tetanus, and Whooping Cough. Most likely they'll still find a way to demonize Western Medicine as the villian that killed their children somehow when the fault will lie squarely on their shoulders.

I agree that anti-biotics get over prescribed. However, allowing your child to live with strep throat and allow his/her immune system to fight it off with "homeopathic/naturopathic supportive medicine" will most likely lead to that child developing Scarlet Fever which is deadly. Heck, strep throat could be deadly, and it spreads like wildfire in schools where your children congregate.

I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills. And instead, now we have doctors who are afraid to prescribe narcotic pain relievers to patients who really need it due to the "War on Drugs" and our geniuses from Marin/Santa Cruz feeding irrational fear over addiction and possible side effects. Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui, traditional chinese herbal medicine, tens units, tiger balm, Reiki, heating pads, ice packs, meridian balancing, massage, prayer, meditation, cupping, breathwork, shamanistic practices, yoga, tai chi, rebirthing, sound and vibrational healing, herbal cleanses, visualization, hypnosis, fasting, psychotherapy, changes in diet, crystal healings, accupressure, exercise, magnets, copper bracelets, and aura cleansing don't provide enough relief. That's why we have pain medicine.

And these geniuses who are so quick to take herbal supplements and homeopathic drugs should remember that herbs, plants, and animals are the sources for the "dirty" "chemical compounds" that our prescribed medications offer. These herbal supplements and homeopathic drugs have similar side-effect profiles and require you to take massive doses to get a benefit, usually. And an herb usually includes compounds that aren't necessarily the compounds you need, rather than being able to separate out the compound that treats your particular ailment. So you could be "over medicating" with herbs. And you don't know how the herbs were grown (with or without pesticides and polluted soil and water) and you don't know the true potency of the herbs you're taking because they don't undergo any regulatory testing for potency.

Pain is the 4th vital sign. People have pain, and it's important to treat it.

simchaland says

I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills. And instead, now we have doctors who are afraid to prescribe narcotic pain relievers to patients who really need it due to the “War on Drugs” and our geniuses from Marin/Santa Cruz feeding irrational fear over addiction and possible side effects. Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui, traditional chinese herbal medicine, tens units, tiger balm, Reiki, heating pads, ice packs, meridian balancing, massage, cupping, breathwork, shamanistic practices, yoga, tai chi, rebirthing, sound and vibrational healing, crystal healings, accupressure, exercise, and aura cleansing don’t provide enough relief. That’s why we have pain medicine.

Medications should be used in conjunction with other treatments. But sometimes drugs are all that will work. That's why we have drugs.

I know someone who's a Reiki "master;" she is so good at it she can do it for someone hundreds of miles away. She's also a homeopathic healer of some sort, loves herbs and tells people how to treat themselves naturally.

She's sick alot.

elliemae says

Pain is the 4th vital sign. People have pain, and it’s important to treat it.
simchaland says

I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills... Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui... That’s why we have pain medicine.

Medications should be used in conjunction with other treatments. But sometimes drugs are all that will work. That’s why we have drugs.
I know someone who’s a Reiki “master;” she is so good at it she can do it for someone hundreds of miles away. She’s also a homeopathic healer of some sort, loves herbs and tells people how to treat themselves naturally.
She’s sick alot.

Yeah, I find that many people who chose to be "holistic" without using any "Western Medicine" at all have many physical and sometimes mental complaints. I was educated in the holistic healing arts as a psychotherapist on a graduate school level. "Holistic" means looking at the ENTIRE person to help that person to acheive balance to allow for healing to happen. In my view "Holistic Medicine" includes all of those so-called "Alternative Treatments" and "Western Medicine." If you are going to go holistic, go all the way and exclude nothing that could be of assistance.

A friend of a friend believes that drinking vitamin juice supplment will cure his brain cancer. This has not worked out too well to date.

Most credible stats I have read put malpractice injuries under 1% and death far below that. No system is perfect it just needs to strive to be.

Vicente says

A friend of a friend believes that drinking vitamin juice supplment will cure his brain cancer. This has not worked out too well to date.

I had a professor at that holistic studies school who was using hot springs, "watsu" (Shiatsu massage in a hot spring), living "in tune with nature," herbal supplements, a vegan diet, and shamanistic practices to cure his cancer. He refused any treatment by "Western Doctors." He died of cancer within the year or two that the "Western Doctors" told him he'd live without treatment when they diagnosed him. He was only in his 60's.