patrick.net

I don't recall criticizing President Bush for signing original Patriot Act. Perhaps you should check your facts. You seem to have some obsession with signatures. There's a lot of stuff that happens before anything goes onto the Presidents' desk to be signed.

I might have an obsession with signatures, since usually they are an important part of the process, but that's besides the point. While I think it's absurd to entirely exonerate a President for any accountability whatsoever for signing a bill into law, I'm glad that at least you are consistent in that you hold neither Obama nor Bush responsible whatsoever for the Patriot Act, and have never criticized Bush about it, since their signatures were "irrelevant." As far as which facts I need to check... perhaps you can tell me which ones I may have missed?

That you "made me uncomfortable to acknowledge President Obama signed the Patriot Act".

I don't know how you would assess my discomfort through a screen, but feel free to keep diagnosing me!

He's a politician and like all of them has to pick his battlefields, or to use football analogy "take one for the team". Just today I had to sign off on a program that I think is utter garbage. I tacked on some negative comments but that train is leaving the station whether I'm on it or not, I do what I can to make it less evil and I move on to something else. Clearly Obama is critical of the Patriot Act and thus only key popular provisions were extended. We are moving in the right direction.

Interesting, and too bad for you about the program, but I'm still curious what facts you think I should be checking....

So since we're on the subject of FEELINGS and signatures, how do you feel about George Bush Junior signing off on MediCare Part D?

Since I didn't directly accuse you of criticizing Bush, but used it as a relevant example, I'm not sure what FACTS I misstated or violated. I can only speak of Medicare Part D superficially - having not followed it closely then or now to speak of it with any authority. But on its face, I "feel" like it was the wrong thing to do: fiscally liberal and probably Constitutionally as well. Bush was fiscally no different than today's typical Democrat. Of course, while folks like Paul Krugman (Enron advisor) called Bush's spending dangerous back then, he thinks Obama's spending isn't enough. It seems like just as with the Patriot Act, many things that Democrats/liberals thought was bad with Bush are just A-OK when done by Obama. You can certainly point to many Republicans as hypocrites on the spending/social entitlement matters as well, but not many conservatives. Wouldn't you agree?

Paralithodes says

You can certainly point to many Republicans as hypocrites on the spending/social entitlement matters as well, but not many conservatives. Wouldn’t you agree?

I'm not sure what I'd agree to there. I thought Republicans were supposed to be conservatives. At least so it says on campaign literature. I must have misread.

Paralithodes says

Of course, while folks like Paul Krugman (Enron advisor) called Bush’s spending dangerous back then, he thinks Obama’s spending isn’t enough

And Krugman is correct. Don't you agree that our economy is in a slightly different state now than it was under Bush? When the economy is growing and tax revenues are strong, you should be running a budget surplus. On the other hand, when the economy is in the tank, you need to add demand back into the system to make up for what is lost in the private sector. That's Econ 101.

Paralithodes says

It seems like just as with the Patriot Act, many things that Democrats/liberals thought was bad with Bush are just A-OK when done by Obama.

I've read all the posts here and have found no one who said it is A-OK that the Patriot Act was renewed. The posts I've read all are sad about it. Please try not to misrepresent... That's a typical Rush or Beck trick--I'd expect more from you.

Paralithodes says

You can certainly point to many Republicans as hypocrites on the spending/social entitlement matters as well, but not many conservatives.

Is there a conservative party? Which politicians are members of this party?

That was in Econ 101? And the economy was strong under Bush? Odd, I can find plenty of links to Speaker Pelosi and others stating otherwise! Were they just posturing?

I've claimed no where that the posts within here were all A-OK with the Patriot Act renewal, and even if so, I would not have a problem with it, since it contains some very important provisions. However, generally speaking - there was much protest among liberals and the media regarding the Patriot Act when passed and when renewed before. It did not let up until Obama took office. And now it has. Why? What exactly have I misrepresented?

"A typical Rush or Beck trick..." I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, but do understand that it is a "typical trick" of many on the liberal side of things to throw that out as a general smear. And why would you expect more from me? It's very obvious I'm conservative... Probably even a "NeoCon" (though I'm not Jewish), probably a "birther," and I should join the Tea Party. And it's quite obvious that some people here very much dislike conservatives.

"Is there a conservative party? Which politicians are members of this party?"

Good questions. It's a good thing I never implied there was such a party because I would be unable to answer them (I hope you're not implying I claimed such a thing because that would be misrepresenting me, and I'd expect more of you). Perhaps we should ask Vincente: he has read the campaign literature, though I'm not sure if he's referring to Republican or Democratic literature. Then again, since he implies he believes the information in campaign literature to be accurate, maybe we shouldn't ask him.

elliemae says

yea - ’cause if McCain were in office, it never woulda happened…

Vicente says

Did I criticize Bush Junior for signing Patriot Act? You seemed to think I did, but I don’t see it. So since we’re on the subject of FEELINGS and signatures, how do you feel about George Bush Junior signing off on MediCare Part D?

Liberals aren't ready to admit that Obama and the Democratic party are lying thieves. They still feel that the Democrats are here to save us from the evil republicans. Therefore instead of admitting when the democrats are horribly wrong, like they are in passing Patriot Act #2, they deflect attention by flaming the republicans.

The neocon supporters did this for 15 years before they were able to admit that their political leadership had sold them out. Let's all hope that the democratic supporters are much smarter than this.

tatupu70 says

I’ve read all the posts here and have found no one who said it is A-OK that the Patriot Act was renewed. The posts I’ve read all are sad about it. Please try not to misrepresent… That’s a typical Rush or Beck trick–I’d expect more from you.

I must have missed the post where a democratic leaning individual criticizes Obama for this atrocity. The Patriot Act was horrible when Bush passed it. Back then the Dems agreed with me.

It is horrible that Obama passed this extension.

Of course the Dems are now silent. The democratic voters and leadership alike are collectively oozing hypocrisy.

"Back then the Dems agreed with me."

Not the Dems in Congress. Almost every Dem Senator, and the vast majority of Dem Reps voted for it. Only AFTER, when their base started making noise, did they change their tunes and start blaming Bush (except for Vincente, that is... He totally excuses Bush for signing the original Patriot Act).

Paralithodes says

That was in Econ 101? And the economy was strong under Bush? Odd, I can find plenty of links to Speaker Pelosi and others stating otherwise! Were they just posturing?

Yes, and yes. Show me the links and I'll answer.

Paralithodes says

I’ve claimed no where that the posts within here were all A-OK with the Patriot Act renewal

Really. I think I quoted you as saying otherwise. I'll refresh your memory

Paralithodes says

It seems like just as with the Patriot Act, many things that Democrats/liberals thought was bad with Bush are just A-OK when done by Obama.

Paralithodes says

“A typical Rush or Beck trick…” I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean

I'll help you out. What it means is that you make a statement saying--Democrats or liberals think ......, and then proceed to explain why it's wrong. The problem is that Democrats or liberals don't think that at all. It's a logical fallacy that conservative talk radio hosts often use.

Paralithodes says

“Is there a conservative party? Which politicians are members of this party?”
Good questions. It’s a good thing I never implied their was such a party because I would be unable to answer them (I hope you’re not implying I claimed such a thing because that would be misrepresenting me, and I’d expect more of you).

Hmmm.. You said that you're not a member of the Republican party because you're a conservative. How should I have interpreted that? Should I take that to mean that you don't vote for Republicans?

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says
It seems like just as with the Patriot Act, many things that Democrats/liberals thought was bad with Bush are just A-OK when done by Obama.
Paralithodes says
“A typical Rush or Beck trick…” I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean
I’ll help you out. What it means is...

Tat,

Why are you turning this into a childish word game?

Paralithodes has brought up a valid point. Why is there not a democratic backlash against the Patriot act extension? Why are all dems not grilling Obama for signing an almost unedited bill?

It seems very hypocritical. Do you have an explanation? Something to add? Or are you going to accuse me of using Fox news tactics? (FYI: Except during the daily show clips, I haven't watch fox news in years.)

Or i suppose you could just use this old criticism deflection trick:

elliemae says

yea - ’cause if McCain were in office, it never woulda happened…

Is it really that hard to just admit that the Democrats are a bunch of liers and thieves, just like the republicans?

RayAmerica says

4X says

Name one piece of social legislation presented by Republicans in the past 60 years?…..you cant beause all we focus on is legislation for the rich.

Just one? OK …. uhhhhh what about Bush’s Senior Drug Bill? What about “No Child Left Behind?” Bush’s $80 Billion African AIDS giveaway?? Bush and the Neocons expanded social spending more than any other president since LBJ. That’s precisely why I say when it comes to spending, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the 2 major parties.

Ray, you are very impressive....I am glad that I finally found a arch-conservative that is open to admitting that Bush was a socialist. No other conservative on this board could note any socialist agenda within the Republican party, but you my friend have outed them as socialists.

RayAmerica says

tatupu70 says

I think the better question is–”what aren’t conservatives complaining about?”

I think the better question is - ” are there any conservatives in the GOP??” If so …. who?

Both parties are 1 and the same...we have a 2 party system: The People vs. The Government

CBOEtrader says

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says
It seems like just as with the Patriot Act, many things that Democrats/liberals thought was bad with Bush are just A-OK when done by Obama.
Paralithodes says
“A typical Rush or Beck trick…” I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean
I’ll help you out. What it means is…

Tat,
Why are you turning this into a childish word game?
Paralithodes has brought up a valid point. Why is there not a democratic backlash against the Patriot act extension? Why are all dems not grilling Obama for signing an almost unedited bill?
It seems very hypocritical. Do you have an explanation? Something to add? Or are you going to accuse me of using Fox news tactics? (FYI: Except during the daily show clips, I haven’t watch fox news in years.)
Or i suppose you could just use this old criticism deflection trick:
elliemae says

yea - ’cause if McCain were in office, it never woulda happened…

Is it really that hard to just admit that the Democrats are a bunch of liers and thieves, just like the republicans?

Both parties are OBSTRUCTIONISTS....it just depends on who is in office.

CBOEtrader says

tatupu70 says

I’ve read all the posts here and have found no one who said it is A-OK that the Patriot Act was renewed. The posts I’ve read all are sad about it. Please try not to misrepresent… That’s a typical Rush or Beck trick–I’d expect more from you.

I must have missed the post where a democratic leaning individual criticizes Obama for this atrocity. The Patriot Act was horrible when Bush passed it. Back then the Dems agreed with me.
It is horrible that Obama passed this extension.
Of course the Dems are now silent. The democratic voters and leadership alike are collectively oozing hypocrisy.

There is nothing horrible about being able to spy on terrorists, then going out and enslaving them and torturing them. They deserve this treatment for the simple fact that they wont lie down after we won the war.

I mean, really, how much longer do we have to fight these nuts before you realize we need to shut em down?

....maybe we should bring vaseline and have em lube themselves before we enter their country. Last I remember when a war was won all the women were raped and the men were murdered. We havent done enough to shut them down, which is why they feel obliged to set booby traps and blow up our national landmarks. The Patriot Act does nothing to limit our freedoms, as I say we should follow suit with raping and murdering the men of the countries whom we have invaded. I am only speaking hypothetically, but in war these are tactics that put all the non-sense to rest. After a war is won the people need to be shocked with gruesome acts of violence else they will get all bold and start revolting like in Afghan and Iraq of today. Sadaam shut all this down with his helicopter gunships, we are attempting to shut it down with a panzy Patriot Act so we can spy....its just silly. We either should pull out or man up and start cutting down some people with our gunships until the suicide bombing stops.

Which is worse for the people of these countries...RAPE or the PATRIOT ACT?.........I say only rape/pillaging will end this war.

4X says

….maybe we should bring vaseline and have em lube themselves before we enter their country. Last I remember when a war was won all the women were raped and the men were murdered. We havent done enough to shut them down, which is why they feel obliged to set booby traps and blow up our national landmarks. The Patriot Act does nothing to limit our freedoms, as I say we should follow suit with raping and murdering the men of the countries whom we have invaded. I am only speaking hypothetically, but in war these are tactics that put all the non-sense to rest. After a war is won the people need to be shocked with gruesome acts of violence else they will get all bold and start revolting like in Afghan and Iraq of today. Sadaam shut all this down with his helicopter gunships, we are attempting to shut it down with a panzy Patriot Act so we can spy….its just silly. We either should pull out or man up and start cutting down some people with our gunships until the suicide bombing stops.
Which is worse for the people of these countries…RAPE or the PATRIOT ACT?………I say only rape/pillaging will end this war.

That is the nuttiest most disjointed post I've ever seen. I might point out that the second largest terrorist attack on America was by a couple of redneck morons from Kansas. Gunships to Kansas anyone? Where in the don't ask don't tell army are you going to get volunteers to rape all these men anyway?

CBOEtrader says

Paralithodes has brought up a valid point. Why is there not a democratic backlash against the Patriot act extension? Why are all dems not grilling Obama for signing an almost unedited bill?

I answered his point about 10-20 posts ago and he ignored it. So, I figured that he wasn't really looking for an answer.

"Really. I think I quoted you as saying otherwise. I’ll refresh your memory"

Thanks... The piece you seem to be missing is that I never specifically said liberals "here" and I meant liberals in general. You specifically responded with the "liberals HERE" argument. While certainly I may not be able to "prove" my general opinion and observation, I also don't accept you attempting to reframe or reinterpret my position into something more narrow or broad, depending upon the context, so that you can try to refute it and paint me into some type of hypocrite either way. But I do understand your attempt since it is a very common "trick."

"Hmmm.. You said that you’re not a member of the Republican party because you’re a conservative. How should I have interpreted that? Should I take that to mean that you don’t vote for Republicans?"

I'm fairly certain that I NEVER claimed that I was not a member of the Republican Party. The probelm, unfortunately, is that while agreeing or disagreeing is one thing, you and Vincente seem not willing to acknowledge that many conservatives make the distinction in the first place. You don't argue against the position, you just deny that there is one.

That is why, similar to what you imply of me, you should perhaps just admit that there is no possible point that I, or any other conservative, would make, that you would find valid. How many times did it take Vincente before he would even indirectly acknowledge that Obama signed the Patriot Act? And why won't he clearly say he does not fault Bush for the first one (rather than merely saying I have no proof that he did)? I know you cannot speak for him, but apparently his inconsistency or unwillingness to answer questions clearly doesn't bother you. I take it you agree: A President signing a bill like the Patriot Act, when the bill theoretically could be veto-proof, is irrelevant and the President bears no accountability for it?

Which point did I ignore 10-20 posts back, that there is no backlash now because it was new then and it is old news now? LOL! Or did I not show enough sympathy for your poor dog? When Bush was in office, whom did you yell at: Bush or your dog?

tatupu70 says

CBOEtrader says

Paralithodes has brought up a valid point. Why is there not a democratic backlash against the Patriot act extension? Why are all dems not grilling Obama for signing an almost unedited bill?

I answered his point about 10-20 posts ago and he ignored it. So, I figured that he wasn’t really looking for an answer.

You did no such thing. You misdirected the question into some childish word game, which has unfortunately become very common practice in this forum.

Let's try this again, shall we? I am interested in hearing opinions from anyone that voted for Obama. Please either express your distaste for the current crop of democrats, or explain why the backlash against Obama has been muted.

Please keep your republican misdirection tricks out of this. I am most closely aligned with the libertarians, and generally disagree with both major parties equally.

It is always the supporters of the newly-in-power party who refuse to admit their leaders' faults. For whatever reason, this mental disease affects even the well-written, seemingly intelligent supporters of the newly minted power party. (See Elliemae, Vicente, Tat, and 4X for examples.) Kevin may be the lone voice of liberal reason in this thread (I am assuming he voted for Obama, which may not be true).

CBOEtrader says

You did no such thing. You misdirected the question into some childish word game, which has unfortunately become very common practice in this forum.

OK--I'll quote from my own earlier post.

tatupu70 says

This whole discussion is a bit ridiculous though. Of course there was more outcry when the bill was first written and passed. It was controversial and fresh. Now, it’s old news. Doesn’t mean anyone feels differently about it–just the way America works…

You may not agree with my opinion, but I answered the question.

CBOEtrader says

It is always the supporters of the newly-in-power party who refuse to admit their leaders’ faults. For whatever reason, this mental disease affects even the well-written, seemingly intelligent supporters of the newly minted power party. (See Elliemae, Vicente, Tat, and 4X for examples.) Kevin may be the lone voice of liberal reason in this thread (I am assuming he voted for Obama, which may not be true).

That is not true either--I've expressed my disappointment with Obama on several occasions on these boards. It may appear that I defend him only because others blame anything and everything on him...

"You may not agree with my opinion, but I answered the question."

I think he's right, CBOEtrader, he did answer the question. I will rephrase it, however, by adding the relevant timelines:

"It was controversial and fresh [until January 2009]. Now, [since January, 2009] it’s old news."

Hope you don't mind, Tat, I'm just trying to help make your statement more accurate.

Paralithodes says

“It was controversial and fresh [until January 2009]. Now, [since January, 2009] it’s old news.”
Hope you don’t mind, Tat, I’m just trying to help make your statement more accurate.

lol--I'd say you're twisting words to fit your purpose. If only you were as clever as you think you are...

"lol–I’d say you’re twisting words to fit your purpose."

True. But I'll give myself credit for at least being extremely obvious and upfront about it.

"If only you were as clever as you think you are…"

I agree! I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time posting in Internet chat forums (and no, that is not a swipe at anyone else here)! LOL!

tatupu70 says

OK–I’ll quote from my own earlier post.
tatupu70 says
This whole discussion is a bit ridiculous though. Of course there was more outcry when the bill was first written and passed. It was controversial and fresh. Now, it’s old news. Doesn’t mean anyone feels differently about it–just the way America works…
You may not agree with my opinion, but I answered the question.

Spoken like a true partisan. Your explanation is not rational. More than an actual rational explanation, this is your brain justifying your Democratic affiliation. The human psyche has an amazing capacity to justify and rationalize that which is neither justifiable, nor rational.

Paralithodes says

“It was controversial and fresh [until January 2009]. Now, [since January, 2009] it’s old news.”

It is indeed unfortunate, but Pralithodes is EXACTLY CORRECT in his sentiment.

CBOEtrader says

Spoken like a true partisan. Your explanation is not rational. More than an actual rational explanation, this is your brain justifying your Democratic affiliation. The human psyche has an amazing capacity to justify and rationalize that which is neither justifiable, nor rational.

No offense--but I really don't consider myself a Democrat at all. I've only voted for 1 Democrat in my life actually, compared with 2 Republicans and an Independent (for President).

I think you tend to look at things through your own political viewpoint so an Independent probably looks like a liberal to you.

Looks like Tat's voting record is to the right of mine! LOL! : Clinton, Clinton, Gore, Bush, McCain.

See--we're not that different!

http://xkcd.com/386/

Patriot Act bad then, bad now. Fin!

Which parts are bad (in your opinion)?

All of them. Next!

"All of them. Next!"

My hidden question was: Have you ever read it? Thanks for answering!!!!!

bob2356 says

4X says

….maybe we should bring vaseline and have em lube themselves before we enter their country. Last I remember when a war was won all the women were raped and the men were murdered. We havent done enough to shut them down, which is why they feel obliged to set booby traps and blow up our national landmarks. The Patriot Act does nothing to limit our freedoms, as I say we should follow suit with raping and murdering the men of the countries whom we have invaded. I am only speaking hypothetically, but in war these are tactics that put all the non-sense to rest. After a war is won the people need to be shocked with gruesome acts of violence else they will get all bold and start revolting like in Afghan and Iraq of today. Sadaam shut all this down with his helicopter gunships, we are attempting to shut it down with a panzy Patriot Act so we can spy….its just silly. We either should pull out or man up and start cutting down some people with our gunships until the suicide bombing stops.
Which is worse for the people of these countries…RAPE or the PATRIOT ACT?………I say only rape/pillaging will end this war.

That is the nuttiest most disjointed post I’ve ever seen. I might point out that the second largest terrorist attack on America was by a couple of redneck morons from Kansas. Gunships to Kansas anyone? Where in the don’t ask don’t tell army are you going to get volunteers to rape all these men anyway?

I was attempting to show that we are fighting the wrong war, laws dont apply to this situation because we cant fight a country which is lawless. Prior to our invasion, the people of Iraq refused to uprise because they knew Sadaam was willing to send his gunships in to gun them down. They have no fear of us because we are unwilling to do such a thing. What we need to do now is install fear in them, not attempt to befriend them and help them setup their government.

Paralithodes says

Looks like Tat’s voting record is to the right of mine! LOL! : Clinton, Clinton, Gore, Bush, McCain.

Anyone who voted for Bush, Mccain needs a reality check or a shot of pragmatism. Neither of these individuals are capable of making decisions based upon improving the welfare of the people. So I have to assume you are a millionaire with no concern for the common Joe the Plumber because Mccain, Bush, Republicans only want to deregulate and increase profits.

Social improvements are secondary if at all.