patrick.net

Bap33, I'm feeling left out. You respond to tatupu, ellie, and nomo, why not me:O(

well .. I skipped you because your response was really really really really lacking in reality. I understand you are not in California, so your opinion of the invasion is not the same as it is here, and in Arizona and NM. Also, I'm pretty sure you will not read the links I share and if you do, you will blame me for what they share. Anyways, here's a couple to 'splane the invasion and it's impact on California.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

http://www.theminorityreportblog.com/story/steve_foley/2009/07/02/illegal_aliens_health_care_reforms_dirty_little_secret

now, when you read these things and your anger overcomes your thought process, please take just a few seconds and google the sources they site and you will find them to be correct based on actual numbers of actual reports and studies.

Do you now agree that Prop 187 was a pivot point in California and America as a (w)hole?

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/12/26/170334.shtml

hey, here's one from Ore:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2009/10/illegal_immigrants_burden_port.html

still disagree?

Bap33 says

tatupu, read my point about dieing after your last post. Everyone dies, not just unisured cancer people.

Sorry--I'm still missing your point. Are you trying to say that we shouldn't try to heal sick people? Because they are going to die anyway at some point?

Leigh says

Bap33, I’m feeling left out. You respond to tatupu, ellie, and nomo, why not me:O(

Bap33 says

well .. I skipped you because your response was really really really really lacking in reality

Leigh - what the hell could an RN possibly know about healthcare, health insurance, or basically anything? Anyone with a grin like that wearing a diaper on her head couldn't possibly understand...

Happy New Year!

miss ellie, knowing about apples and oranges was not the question. Why must you keep compairing them? Knowing how libs have allowed an invasion into the orange and apple bins .. that was the issue.

tatupu, no no, not my point at all. I know all docs in America take a hippo oath that says thay will only do good and will treat all who need them. I'm suggesting they are made to follow the oath they took. I did not take an oath to pay for the hyper-breeder crankster or active sodomite, should their personal life style choices result in unhealthy conditions. Did you? Docs did.

My exact point about death and health care is this: No amount of money will buy enough health care to avoid death. None. If we can agree on that point, we can then find out why "A" has figured out "$$$" to take from "B" and start spending on "A's chosen few" to pay for the services of docs and pharms. It is all arbitrary welfare crap, and has nothing to do with a healthier America. The welfare state has created more unhealthy people and "poor" people (whatever poor means, anyways) - so why make a bigger welfare system for docs and pharms to get insta-rich?

I support free public clinics, in a building owned by THE STATE, staffed by FREE VOLUNTEERS - ran as a non-profit under a public elected board of directors. And the only qualification to get care would be, must be HUMAN.
All current private hospitas and clinics and insurnces would remain and flex to whatever market forces are there - absent Gov force.

I support free public housing in a building owned by THE STATE, and maintained by FREE VOLUNTEERS (or, non-violent criminal workforce). The accomidations would be Spartan be design and dorm style. Only married people would be housed in married dorms. All others would be segragated by sex. No smoking, drugs, or drinking allowed. No pets. The only qualification would be, must be HUMAN.

I support free food at a building owned by THE STATE and staffed by FREE VOLUTEERS (the idiots supporting welfare now could give directly of their own time), or staffed by non-violent criminal workforce. All food will be donated, second hand, blimished, or otherwise not market based food. The only rule is no selling of the food, and no hording. And ANYONE that wanted the free food could get some.

No more invisible guidelines between "poor enough" and "too wealthy". That is all crap. If THE STATE is to provide anything for FREE, then it should be free to ALL. It's just as bad when libs talk race. How "black" must a person be to be called "black" and get to move to the front of the line? Bullcrap, is all it is. I only use black as an example, do not get all race-baitor on me. I actually $upport ethnic based head-start programs that focus on family -- yes, Focus on the Family - google it.

Bap33 says

I support free public clinics, in a building owned by THE STATE, staffed by FREE VOLUNTEERS - ran as a non-profit under a public elected board of directors. And the only qualification to get care would be, must be HUMAN.
All current private hospitas and clinics and insurnces would remain and flex to whatever market forces are there - absent Gov force.

And where do you volunteer to provide "free" to help the world?

BTW, I'm not sure why you asked me about "compairing" (sic) apples & oranges - although the obvious answer might be that we're discussing healthcare and you're discussing perishable food. Remember that if you become ill from eating said fruit, you'll have to go to the "hospita" (sic) or have your "insurnces" company pay for it.

Bap33 says

Knowing how libs have allowed an invasion into the orange and apple bins .. that was the issue.

I certainly hope that you understand the meaning of your comments, because I doubt anyone else could make sense of them. The only thing that comes through time & time again is that you are conservative, hate liberals, don't like Mexicans because they live in your California, and consider every thread to be a battle that could be won by whining about your awesome ideas if anyone would just listen.

lol ... dang. You pegged me. Cheers.

Unless 'those illegals' are working under the table then they are paying taxes and their employers are paying taxes even if it's under a dead persons SS#. From what I witness, I'd hire a Mexican any day over a most white people I meet in the same profession, skill. They are hard working, they come here to earn money to support their families here and back home. Heck, go to your nearest meat processing plant and tell me what you see (but not too many details as I'd likely puke).

Some folks act like 'those illegals' don't contribute to society. How much would your produce cost if the farmers had to pay 'someone else'. How much would lawn care, construction, kitchen and hotel help cost, meat...?

So let's look at this another way, say one of 'those illegals' comes to the ED via ambulance after an accident caused by no fault of his own. Do we let him bleed out and die because he is 'illegal'. You'd stand there and watch some one die because they are 'illegal'...WTF?

Leigh says

Unless ‘those illegals’ are working under the table then they are paying taxes and their employers are paying taxes even if it’s under a dead persons SS#

The scam that no one wants to talk about. Employers know if a SS# is bad with the first paycheck. They have 12 months to ask for a correction. The person then hands them another phony SS# and can work 12 more months. Again and Again. These people pay millions (perhaps billions) into SS and medicare knowing that they will never see anything from it. So in actual fact the wealthiest group of people (seniors) in the wealthiest country in the world are stealing from the poorest, the illegal immigrants. Perfect.

No one in government or business wants to clean up illegal immigration. There is way too much money for businesses to make and way too many campaign contributions from these business for politicians to ever fix the problem. Start putting business owners in jail for hiring illegals and the estimated 12 million illegals would be gone in a couple of months. Everyone likes to complain about the illegals, but everyone also loves cheap produce, childcare, and lawn/pool care.

Leigh says

So let’s look at this another way, say one of ‘those illegals’ comes to the ED via ambulance after an accident caused by no fault of his own. Do we let him bleed out and die because he is ‘illegal’. You’d stand there and watch some one die because they are ‘illegal’…WTF?

The uninformed who believe that they have all the answers because they know how to google and vent their anger at the illegals don't get it. Healthcare is a human issue. Our system is broken. Instead of offering any realistic answers, they'd rather whine, point fingers, demean other posters and represent themselves as victims of the system that pays for illegals to receive minimal healthcare.

We've beat this thread to death. Rather than acknowledge the problem, posters continually link the problem to their political party and views. Let's let it rest - I hope that the whiners and self-imposed victims never experience a healthcare emergency beyond their ability to pay. I hope that they never encounter a disease that they can't beat, no matter how awesome their insurance might be. But most of all, I hope that age & experience will change their mindset from being bitter about someone receiving healthcare partially subsidized by their tax dollars to understanding that healthcare should never be an option.

Elliemae over & out on this one. No sense beating a dead horse with someone who thinks it's a donkey they can kill a million times to make their point.

Sorry WIWL, not referring to you. I'll try to be more clear in my hurriedness.

So here I am at work and two of my patients today are in for health problems related to heroine and crack, long time welfare, on Medicaid. I think I'd rather be giving free care to my fellow human beings who work hard at the orchards than sit at home doing crack and Old English, just my opinion though.

^ this is why mandated health insurance is such a great idea. Plus we need to throw people who hire under the table into jail -- that's the only way to solve the illegal immigrant problem.

Troy says

^ this is why mandated health insurance is such a great idea. Plus we need to throw people who hire under the table into jail — that’s the only way to solve the illegal immigrant problem.

Mandated health insurance, the beacon of hope for the "free world"

AdHominem says

Mandated health insurance, the beacon of hope for the “free world”

The rest of the free world has universal health care so I'm not sure what you mean with that statement. But mandated health insurance is really the only way to try to lower costs by eliminating the "free rider" problem.

^ hey man, being a free rider is what freedom is all about in the free world.

Troy says

^ hey man, being a free rider is what freedom is all about in the free world.

And here I thought it was free riders that bring collapse of freedom. Whoops my bad. Pass the free health care koolade please.

Ad--

Here's an article for you to consider:

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/the-platform/published-editorials/2010/01/an-individual-mandate-is-fairest-way-to-protect-health-care/

AdHom, every system has a problem with free riders. In laissez faire utopias, they are the rentiers, the landed class. In medieval economies, it is known as the tragedy of the unmanaged commons. In Stalinist dystopias, it is the Party apparat.

The only society without free riders is caveman society whose only fixed capital was the firepit. Once we became human and a social animal free riders became everyone's problem.

wish i was lucky says

There should probably be an option of some type of public work program where a person who lacks money - but who has some time - could trade some labor for their health care. And maybe a reward system for people who can manage to stay healthy.

I agree with alot of this idea

^ I think that particular jobs program is already run by the DOD.

wish i was lucky says

How about we figure out a way to turn some of those McMansions into Boarding Houses?

That's already happening.

Troy says

AdHom, every system has a problem with free riders.

Good thing we have a government to protect and enable the free riders. Both poor and rich alike.

AdHominem says

Good thing we have a government to protect and enable the free riders. Both poor and rich alike

Yes, good point. I almost forgot that everything is the government's fault. Good thing you are here to remind everyone..

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Good thing we have a government to protect and enable the free riders. Both poor and rich alike

Yes, good point. I almost forgot that everything is the government’s fault. Good thing you are here to remind everyone..

There there tatu, you don't have to speak for me all the time do you?

Government is not to blame. Big government ideology is. Government should not be big enough to enable freeloaders.

AdHominem says

Government is not to blame. Big government ideology is. Government should not be big enough to enable freeloaders.

That's just it. Free-loaders exist with big government, small government, and even with no government.