patrick.net

BAP - my barbs were meant for Troy - not you. I'm on the side of anyone with common sense, like you. Abe.

=Ready, go.

Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark.

Socialism is spreading poverty equally amongst everyone.

Socialism is a tool. It can be used and abused.

FWIW, as a left-libertarian I only want socialism to the degree that it is necessary to ensure everyone access to that which is needed to become and remain a productive member of society.

Jeffersonian idealocracy can work when there's half a continent to settle and profit from, but once the land is taken independence and malthusian conservatism will not work over the long run.

I am a hyper capitalist and believe in entrepreneurialism and the profit motive. I also think that established, hereditary wealth is a present drag on progress, if and when it pursues rentierism, for rentierism -- speculating in land, profits from natural resource extraction, and abusive skill arbitrage among our professional caste -- is simply leeching on the truly productive members of society who are producing through their labor the wealth of the nation.

The harder the politicians try to satisfy the UNLIMITED demands of tens of millions of government dependents the faster the money will run out.

Money's not the problem. Wealth creation is. We need to create more and consume less. More doctors. More nurses. More factories. More capital formation.

Less "investment" in real estate, less lawyers, less prisons, less military expenditure, all this is just pissing away our wealth.

The problem with non-governmental approaches is that "private equity" is intensely conservative and prefers the status quo, if not the status quo ante of the 19th century unregulated Gilded Age.

FWIW, I think income and sales taxes should be minimal and taxes on land value and resource extraction be maximal. You give me this & I'll support your minarchy.

Troy, thank you.
Would you share just a few details about those countries, please.
1) immigration laws, and rates of immigration from non-anglo countries.
2) demographic of non-Anglo residences and percentage break-down by nationality.
3) Amount spent on Defense, amount sent out in foreign aide, amount spent on FEMA / or Red Cross type of services.
4) Smog laws / EPA equivelant and cost to maintain.
5) Average number of non-citezens giving birth for free in hospitals over the past decade
6) Increase in non-domestic children in schools / on public aide
7) legal system access
8) divorce rate / teen-unwed mother rate

I know that's alot, but I think the details of your point are very important and knowing the details will help me (and others I think) see the whole picture. Thank you.

I'm not a racist or culturalist and I think everyone, given a conducive environment, can become productive members of society. Scandinavian countries are already non-anglo so I don't know what you mean by that.

It is true that the nordic nations have the advantage of a lot fewer mouths to feed and a lot more homogenous, common culture extending back into the mists of time to bolster their sense of common community.

The lack of the latter is one of America's main problems but it's solvable if we address the underlying problems in the current system, most of them simply economics-related IMO. I don't hold the eurosocialist nations to be paradises but there's a lot we can learn from them. America got by on the myths of the wild west and pioneering spirit, but now that all the good land's taken we have to think more about how we become more productive as a people.

Please excuse my ignorance, I thought "anglo-saxon"(sp) was the correct term for the northern region peoples. What is the proper term for the caucozoidial folks that populate the regions you mention?

You say you are not a culturalist, but you mention the lack of common culture as being a possible issue in America, now that all of the good land is gone. Would the good land include areas outside of America?

Would you please give your best try at putting some numbers to my questions? I did a few searches and have numbers, but they will be slanted in my way, so I would like to read yours first. My point will obviously come from the details of the locations and peoples you suggested we follow, so please do not find offence in my questions. Thanks.

Of course Civilization and economic success depends greatly on parentage and culture in the general but like I said above I am more of a "classist" than a culturist or racist, ie. in any country and people wealth begets progress and poverty begets strife.

Humans are naturally more generous to people who share commonality and naturally suspicious of those who don't. Americans have been dealing with these issues since we got off the boats 400 years ago, and the nordic/scandinavian countries are now beginning to deal with the friction as more third-world immigrants flock to their socialist safety-net systems. [to answer your question, Anglo-Saxon refers to germanic tribes that ended up in England, first battling the Welsh & Celts, and later invading nordic peoples]

The original question above was about how eurosocialism can be established without violence, and I gave examples of the nordic countries.

I find Honest Abe's opinion: "Cut spending, lower taxes, sound money, less regulation. WERE HEADED IN THE WRONG DIRECTION" ideologically-driven and not empirical.

Gov't spending, High/low taxes aren't the problem, what this money is going towards is the problem. If gov't spending is accretive -- wealth enhancing -- then it can assist private enterprise. Same thing with regulation. cf. Bhopal, India and present-day China for the natural state of an unregulated economy, not to mention the topic of CRA and how the financial system was allowed to go off the rails this decade.

http://dorkmonger.blogspot.com/2008/11/cutting-red-tape.html

The top 10% of this country own about two-thirds the wealth. The masses toil for them. In a democracy, something's gotta give here.

Back on topic, I find the idea of cutting taxes naive in the extreme because it is ignorant of a fundamental feedback dynamic of our economy, that of land prices and disposable income.

AFAICT, every dollar of less taxes will eventually result in a dollar higher in rents and mortgage payments. And the converse is true, too. Every dollar of increased taxes results in lower land values and lower rents.

This is why I think that without taxing land more we will not really stabilize the system that well. The Eurosocialists address the problem sideways by taxing the crap out of everything, but more targeted taxes are in fact possible.

The problem with a “governmental approach” is they flat out don’t know what the hell they are doing, and care even less about the negative unintended consequences they create in the aftermath. Plus it opens the door to waste, fraud, mismanagement, misallocation of resources, and corruption…

I certainly agree with this 100%. A people get the government they deserve, good and hard, as the wise man said. Only 20% of this country has their head on straight IMO. If that.

Troy the 50 poorest countries in the world all have the same symptoms…low income, grinding poverty, restrictive authoritarian laws, hunger and little hope for the future.

They also have the commonality of too many ~~~~ people and not enough land. The governmental dysfunction IMO is not a cause but an effect of their poverty.

Hereditary wealth does not negate opportunity

In the general I most certainly agree with you. The injustice only comes from wealth crooks acquiring natural wealth and then leasing it out to others who then do the actual work in the system. This is a net drag on equality and advancement and requires 30% or so of our economy to be involved in unproductive tail-chasing of CRE and real estate rentierism.

I have no problem with wealth getting returns from capital risk, the Gates and Googles. We all, however, cannot be billg. Someone has to stock the shelves, rotate the tires, and clean the toilets, and these fungible jobs simply lack bargaining power to become anything other than a race to the bottom in any unregulated economy. Quality of life in the eurosocialist systems is IMMENSELY better for the bulk of the people than here in the states. This is not a failure of our people but due to the fundamental feedback of land economy and rife rentierism the masses are subjected to here.

I live and work in Sunnyvale and have seen ZERO black people as peers here since I got here in 2000. Something is fundamentally screwed up in our system. I'm interested in solutions, not ideological bs that didn't work 200 years ago (hint: Hamilton won that argument) and won't work now.

If they lost their place and missed their “Window of time” they would have to wait for 6-9 months for their next available opportunity to see a dentist.

An NHS dentist. Dentistry isn't even covered by Medicare any more so the US has no socialist dentistry so the wait time for an equivalent in the US is infinite.

The UK still has private dentistry for those willing to pay instead of wait and AFAICT medical services are so critical that I simply don't trust the free market in providing them -- providers have too much pricing power due to there guilding (limiting supply), asymmetrical information (they're the experts), and inelastic demand that is usually not price sensitive (health is wealth).

Wait a minute, to make matters ever worse the Obama Administration is piling on unprecedented massive amounts of debt on the American people while at the very same time stating that “debt accumulation is unsustainable”.

Obama's administration is responsible for two months of gov't spending now since the fiscal year started last month.

Therefore Thomas Jefferson was right after all.

Jefferson was right about a lot of things, but it's not longer the 18th century and his agrarian-centered outlook isn't going to work now.

What the teabaggers ignore is that private corporations and concentrated wealth can be just as tyrannical as the worst collectivized hellhole.

stop managing our great country in a “loosey-goosey” manner which has lead us to the brink of economic collapse

I agree with this, however. As a left-libertarian I'd like to see DC focus on national issues and my state government focus on everything else, like it should be. The problem with this is that California is about the optimal size but most states are just a bit too small to be independent states in the full sense of the word.

Addendum:

"I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1785

heh.

This is an addendum to the addendum dated November 18, by Troy.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

This is EXACTLY what's happening today in America. END THE FED. Support The Campaign For Liberty. Vote for Ron Paul and Peter Schiff.

or vote for someone who will make sensible changes over a phased approach, like what Obama is doing now. All this talk about destroying our current system is getting a bit silly...as if any of us are expert enough to know what we are talking about.

Yes, sensible changes like Ron Paul suggests. Obama is NOT making sensible changes. He is a financial illiterate. He has never owned a business nor was he even in the Boy Scouts. He (and Bush) are spending us into a black hole with no escape. OK, well there are several ways out: (1) Default on all the debt that government has created (and the Chinese won't be loaning us any more money (2) continue to devalue our currency until hyperinflation (3) massive tax increases and confiscation of everyones assets (Bank savings accounts, 401K plans, safe deposit boxes, etc.) There of course the possibility of two or all three of the above to happen at the same time. This is where government becomes tyrancial.

I am expert enough to know what I am talking about because: I read, I have common sense, I understand history repeats itself, I understand incorrect "cures" of the past, repeated again now, will NOT solve our problems. I understand if too much spending and debt got us into this problem, more spending and more debt is not the correct answer. I understand the value of sound money is necessary for the financial health of individuals, businesses, and the country as a whole.

There are solutions to our problems and the government is doing EXACTLY the opposite. The government is preventing the economy from fixing itself, which it would, WITHOUT more government intervention. The governments "solutions" will extend process and make it more painful for all (except the political class).

Honest Abe says

He has never owned a business nor was he even in the Boy Scouts.

Wait a second. He wasn't in the Boy Scouts??? Can I change my vote??

elvis says

I’ve heard that reference before. I think it means even though Obama wasn’t even a boy scout…he’s now the Commander and Chief of the most powerful military in the world. It is kind of ironic when you think about it.

How is that ironic? Does being a Boy Scout have any relevance to being Commander in Chief? Does he often find himself in a situation where he needs to set up a tent? Or help old ladies cross the street?

From memory, so errors may be found:
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law
To help other people at all times
To keep myself physically strong mentally awake, and morally straight.

yea .. that's just horrible stuff.

It reads like an anti-lib campaign. lol

Hey all, long time since I've checked in a note a few old timers still here. Interesting to me how the conversation has evolved to it's current state. I wonder if there are any folks here whose actually get paid to post here and influence the "community". Some dubious and supicious posting going on.

Hope this finds you all well.

Cheers! :-)

Honest Abe says

Yes, sensible changes like Ron Paul suggests. Obama is NOT making sensible changes. He is a financial illiterate. He has never owned a business nor was he even in the Boy Scouts. He (and Bush) are spending us into a black hole with no escape. OK, well there are several ways out: (1) Default on all the debt that government has created (and the Chinese won’t be loaning us any more money (2) continue to devalue our currency until hyperinflation (3) massive tax increases and confiscation of everyones assets (Bank savings accounts, 401K plans, safe deposit boxes, etc.) There of course the possibility of two or all three of the above to happen at the same time. This is where government becomes tyrancial.
I am expert enough to know what I am talking about because: I read, I have common sense, I understand history repeats itself, I understand incorrect “cures” of the past, repeated again now, will NOT solve our problems. I understand if too much spending and debt got us into this problem, more spending and more debt is not the correct answer. I understand the value of sound money is necessary for the financial health of individuals, businesses, and the country as a whole.
There are solutions to our problems and the government is doing EXACTLY the opposite. The government is preventing the economy from fixing itself, which it would, WITHOUT more government intervention. The governments “solutions” will extend process and make it more painful for all (except the political class).

I agree that Obama is not making the changes he promised, however, it has only been 8 months so we must understand that he will need time. In regards to your political and financial policy expertise, I highly doubt that you or I can obtain the experience necessary to influence an economy simply by reading. I am sure that Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke know exactly what the root of our issues are, however, due to political gamesmanship they are not free to act upon actions that would resolve our issues. Neither of us can read newspaper clippings and become experts, we can be knowledgeable but never experts.

If that were the case, we could simply read a scholarly journal and become a doctor or lawyer.

Nomograph says

Bap33 says

It reads like an anti-lib campaign. lol

You forgot a line:
To pay my own way and not take government housing welfare
It reads like an anti-conservative campaign. lol

Oops, but BAP33 is planning on taking out a FHA loan with that 8K tax credit he is getting on his house. He is not a conservative, we dont accept welfare checks because we get out and work for what we believe in.

northernvirginiarenter says

Hey all, long time since I’ve checked in a note a few old timers still here. Interesting to me how the conversation has evolved to it’s current state. I wonder if there are any folks here whose actually get paid to post here and influence the “community”. Some dubious and supicious posting going on.
Hope this finds you all well.
Cheers!

What you do mean by that?

holly crap .... someone put up something that 4X didn't know everything about!!??!! I am flabbergasted.
To be fair to 4X, understanding what is wrote is tuff for him, as it would appear his extreem hate effects his reading comprehention, or he has spots and stains on his monitor that obscure key words in the posts of others. 4X needs pity and understanding, or some Windex, so please be kind to 4X.
Cheers!

LOL...nice! I know you have been waiting for that one since I got so close to your heart with the 8K tax welfare and FHA loan you are preparing to accept. Just dont mention it at the Republican convention, we will look at you very funny if you do.

Democrats like yourself have to go on the attack to prove a point, I was simply saying that you dont need the tax credit to buy a house.

elvis says

And finally this: BAP took advantage of a government program that shouldn’t even exist. He didn’t create it, but he took advantage of it. I sure don’t hear you criticizing the tens of millions of actual government dependents milking the system on a daily basis…and constantly demanding more. Could this be a bit of hypocrisy on your part?

No, I am not for the tax credit because it only works to temporarily put off the inevitable. I am against anyone taking advantage of the program. Consevatives need to put their money where their mouth is, stop taking funds from programs if you dont need it as a last resort. If we cannot do that, then we should stop downtalking the liberal policies and preaching about what liberals represent as if we wont take the money ourselves. Joe the plumber, even though Obama program saved him tens of thousands in tax breaks this year, still wont vote for the man that put money in his pockets. He would rather vote for the man who put us into a endless war based on conservative principles that are no longer followed by the Republican party.

In regards to the tens of millions you refer to I am for dropping them from the system completely if they have not worked in the past 3 years. If a person is mentally ill enough to not want to work to sustain themselves then they deserve to be dropped with no reason given to them.

The letter should read;

"Get back to work, relocate your family to another area of the country, take up another trade, because we are no longer enabling you to sit at home waiting for your industry, community to bounce back from the blowback of NAFTA, WTO and GATT."

The blowback being the lost of manufacturing jobs to countries with wages 40 times less than here in the US. Now, how can I compete with a slave worker in China making 1 dollar a day.

Bap33 says

holly crap …. someone put up something that 4X didn’t know everything about!!??!! I am flabbergasted.
Cheers!

I know, I also hate it when someone is more articulate than me...I get flabbergasted too. Republicans were flabbergasted when they realized that putting Mccain up against Obama was a mis-match in intellect, wit and good looks. It wasnt a fair match, especially when obama came with the MLK, JFK speachisms of HOPE, CHANGE and PROGRESS that won over the hearts of many voters. Unfortunately, he has not transformed his articulate rhetoric into a call to action for our citizens...he is too busy manipulating numbers on how well tax credits, economic recovery spending is working to help our citizens. He is too busy working with congress to write up the next economic recovery act so he cant focus on the blowback of NAFTA, WTO and GATT.

So, I make this point because I dont want you to be too impressed with my articulation of the English language nor my intellect because my actual policies might run our country into the ground. But then again, I do what I say ....so if you are in support of the 10 points above you should vote for me in 2012 and continue to be impressed with my good wit.

"You wont be left with shit, without my good wit" will be my campaign slogan.

I like you BAP, I just want you to put your money where your mouth is....into conservative programs like savings accounts, IRA, conventional loans. Remember those program?

elvis says

4 X - I couldn’t help but notice that your response to ABE left out any reference to the 3 different ways our countries economy could end. I’d like to know your thoughts on this.
You didn’t address the statement that “repeating incorrect cures of the past won’t solve today’s problems.
You didn’t comment on the statement “if spending and debt caused the problem, how could more spending and more debt be the solution?”

I have been reading on Japans 15 year downturn and what they have done to turn things around, none of the policies included allowing jobs to go offshore, tax credits, or economic recovery plans. They increased regulation and decrease building standards to allow builders to construct taller buildings.

My point to Abe was that we are not experts, I agree with his points but that doesnt mean that I would be successful at pulling us out of this downturn.

My policies are too extreme, best used when shoved down the citizens throat with a baseball bat. Read them again so that you can see that Obama's slow, methodical and cerebral approach might be the more sensible option:

1. Cut off welfare recipients after 18 mos
2. Place a DMZ around Iraq and Afghanistan, then pull out
3. Allow to large to fail banks to reorganize into smaller units and/or fail, no more bailouts
4. Allow home prices to plummet until the prices match the wages, no more 50K annual salary buying 300-400k homes. Limit the services of Fannie, Freddie and FHA to hope those banks start to lend monies out, which they probably wont which is not always good for the economy....no need for taxpayers to lend money to high risk borrowers, right?
5. Provide tax incentives for businesses to keep jobs local, rework NAFTA, WTO agreements to prevent any jobs from going offshore unless for foreign production. Require any goods coming in form local companies be produced by Americans. Match each and every country on their tariffs on foreign imports, play their game the same way.
6. Legalize drugs, and tax its usage heavily. Keep workplace limits on drug use in effect, we cannot have a bunch of dopers on the job. The effects of drugs are too heavy in comparison to alchohol.
7. Drill, Drill, Drill...then use the profits to find another source of energy so we are no longer dependent on the middle east.
8. Require parents to participate weekly in their childs education with onsite homework assignments, shut down no child left behind.
7. Mortgages cannot be sold or securitized, meaning banks could not loan you money then turn around and sell it to FANNIE MAE and FREDDIE MAC
9. Require fluent english for entry into our country, stop printing pamplets in 2 languages. Deport anyone found here illegally, next day air. Lock up second time offenders for life.
10. Lock up gang members for life, if one committs a crime charge the whole gang as a unit. Build more prisons for the people who just dont get it: We dont want to live around your stupidity!

All of these are policies that I have developed, dialoguing with BAP and yourself on what it will take to bring America back to prominence. These are cost cutting measures that would help the middle class, raise our standards of living, and keep the riff-raff away.

4X, you know I agree on your points ... especially the one under your hat.

I add stuff about borders, and I do not advocate any dependant behavior. I also like dead murderers and alive babies, but we can get to that.

I want weapons training offered as an elective in HS ... and auto-shop, wood-shop, and metal-shop should be there too.
Computers should be reduced to elective only.

If you care for the details, I do not "need" the tax credit to make the purchase. I do not "need" FHA either. But, I am FORCED to supply the funds to support the programs, so I "need" to do what is best for me. Me avoiding the FHA loan on principle is alot like the green freaky libs that bought Prius .. they made ZERO difference, and only hurt themselves trying to prove a point. I am not as stupid as a lib w/Prius when it comes to proving a point.

Cheers

elvis says

4X - I LOVE your 10 “Commandments” above. It looks like you are a right wing conservative after all. Those changes would go a long way in healing our economy and bringing back some sanity to our ailing country. Well done.

Of course you love them, you wrote #7 in another post...I am using this site as a learning tool. The dialogue and banter we engage in only serves to open my eyes to different views.

Bap33 says

4X, you know I agree on your points … especially the one under your hat.
I add stuff about borders, and I do not advocate any dependant behavior. I also like dead murderers and alive babies, but we can get to that.
I want weapons training offered as an elective in HS … and auto-shop, wood-shop, and metal-shop should be there too.
Computers should be reduced to elective only.
If you care for the details, I do not “need” the tax credit to make the purchase. I do not “need” FHA either. But, I am FORCED to supply the funds to support the programs, so I “need” to do what is best for me. Me avoiding the FHA loan on principle is alot like the green freaky libs that bought Prius .. they made ZERO difference, and only hurt themselves trying to prove a point. I am not as stupid as a lib w/Prius when it comes to proving a point.
Cheers

To be honest, if I were buying right now I would accept the tax credits also. Its your tax money being returned to encourage first time buyers and slow the decrease in home prices. I have taken out FHA, SALLIE MAE so its not that I dont think the programs are effective it is that they are being used to sucker people into buying at a time when housing prices are continuing to fall.

The parachute has been pulled, however prices are still falling...just more slowly now.

Bap33 says

Me avoiding the FHA loan on principle is alot like the green freaky libs that bought Prius .. they made ZERO difference, and only hurt themselves trying to prove a point. I am not as stupid as a lib w/Prius when it comes to proving a point.
Cheers

That is funny, LOL.....plus I hear it causes more harm to our environment to ship batteries all over the nation for hybrids than it would if everyone bought 8 cylinder vehicles.

CRA caused the housing crash, with the help of Congress.

CONGRESS - none of us is as dumb as all of us.

If you can't read...run for Congress !

I am John Galt.

The CRA was an insignificant factor in the housing bubble.

It was the Fed's artificially low interest rates (2002-2005) that fueled the bubble blaze.

With such strong interest rate incentives, the usual market cycle greed was on steroids.

It was a stampede for easy profits. Lenders ignored the risk in their rush to capitalize on the interest rate margins. And buyers were caught up in an exuberant mania that drove housing prices to unsustainable levels.

Like all bubbles, it was the greedy excesses of the individual and collective participants that set the stage for the financial panic and collapse. But it was the Fed's excessively low interest rate policy that fueled the bubble beyond the typical cycle magnitude, making it worse than prior cycles.

um .. negative. Lending standards were reduced, buyers pool was increased, stupid people got access to money, homes artificially inflated, other stupid people pulled out fake-equity, bubble popped, the end. The rates on those loans made no difference to the idiots getting the loan, they were just playing Monopoly anyways. Heck, they made very few payments anyways.

BAP, I'm going to recommend the kindergarden version of Econ 101 for our economically illiterate friends here on Patrick.net, what do you think...too advanced for them? Abe.

This just in from Reuters, [the Venezuelan version of the Community Reinvestment Act, CRA].

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said "if banks don't want to extend credit to the poor, and comply with the law (CRA ?), he could nationalize them." Gee, that sounds kinda what like what happened here...and Chavez is a Socialist, isn't he?

The same news release said "funds for insurance should go directly to the people"...(national health care?), and Chavez is a Socialist, isn't he?

And for the kazillionth time, the CRA had no requirements on income or wealth. It was only targeted at geographic locations. If a millionaire wanted to rehab an apartment building and make it into condos in a CRA designated location, the loan would qualify under CRA guidelines.

does anyone know why/how/by what law the lending standards were reduced from 20% down to the crud we seen in 1998 -2007? That may help remove the target from the CRA and place it on the correct entity. Was is due to the actions of ACORN? B.Frank? Can anyone pin point what allowed the lenders to engage in irresponsible lending?

Bap33 says

WHere does Fanny / Freddy and ACORN and B. Frank come into this?

Wait--where do Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh fit in? And Michael Savage?

I didn't mean it like that. lol. Besides, those guys don't play any role in policey. Mine was a serious question, not a leading question (but I do understand your reason for such a response). I'm sure you have an intelligent answer. Give me it. I was (intentionally) not taking a hard-line conservative role in my question. I would imagine your answer will show that you are not simply thinking politically either. Or, maybe you are. Either way, mine was just a question. Where do they fall into this mess?