patrick.net

logic says

I am shitting on Trump's poor and slow response and saying a better response might have caused less debt to be incurred.

How? What response would have been better?

There's no misrepresentation of what you're saying. All you're saying is Trump is bad with zero alternative. What could Congress or POTUS have done different in your mind for a virus response?

My answer is time wasn't an issue. It was here before anyone even knew it. Before the dude in Washington state. We had organizations we give a lot of money to lie to us. Other countries lie to us. I'm not sure what response would have been better? There's also no way to prove that one approach was better than another. You're making a mountain out of mole hill over something that is completely uncontrollable.

logic says

Shaman says

he should have kept everything running and we’d have not needed ANY stimulus bills!

My point exactly a leader might have achieved this. Trump did not.

Meh. Time traveling criticism isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. Just like criticism that depends on mind-reading isn’t worth anything. If you ever develop a valid critique I will listen, but so far you got bupkiss!

WookieMan says

How? What response would have been better?

ORANGE MAN BAD

The consideration that perhaps Trump is not the worst possible president is consistently overlooked by people one might otherwise regard as sane.

Congratulations to Edward Bernays. His techniques have proven amazingly effective on a large segment of the population.

https://academyofideas.com/2017/07/edward-bernays-group-psychology-manipulating-the-masses/

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of…in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons…who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world.

ORANGE MAN BAD
ORANGE MAN BAD
ORANGE MAN BAD

There is literally no other thought in the minds of nearly half of the public. No particular reason that they can point to, but they don't question why they have this obsession and keep on watching the media. All reasoning is shut down with:

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But the world actually did not end when Trump was elected."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But the stock market did extremely well."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"But unemployment hit record lows."

ORANGE MAN BAD

"He didn't start any wars, and in fact led us away from expensive violent foreign entanglements."

ORANGE MAN BAD

It's very sad really. You know the hate is eating them up inside, and you don't really want to see them suffer like that. There are worse things, but to watch such insanity is definitely among the saddest things around.

The best response may just be a gentle skepticism. "Really? He doesn't seem all that bad."

Do you really think there is nothing Trump could have done differently in his response that might have made for a better response?

Sure. Trump could have cut funding earlier that he did for the WHO, like right after the WHO claimed CV-19 could not spread human to human. Trump could have been more vocal pointing out how Pelosi and Cuomo were wrong to encourage mass gatherings after Covid arrived, and especially vocal about how it was a really bad (and possibly criminal) idea for Cuoma to force senior care facilities to accept known CV-9 cases. Cuomo's policies alone is why NY has about half the CV-19 fatalities for the nation.

jazz_music says

the volumes of reasons that have been offered to suggest that Trump is actually the grifting petty liar he appears to always have been as far back as the examples of racial housing discrimination in Section 8 subsidized buildings

Just because Trump has been known to associate with racist grifters doesn't mean he is one.

jazz_music says

So you’re saying that Trump hasn’t been partisan enough.

But the opposition is afflicted by blind hatred?

That's one way to put it. Trump has definitely not been exactly a fiscal or social conservative. His one theme is love for America and Americans. His opponents theme is hate for Trump.

logic says

jazz_music says

imported laborers from Poland which he refused to pay

Trump use illegal aliens, inconceivable

Was that in 1973?

marcus says

marcus says

Misc says

Yes, cancer deaths, pneumonia deaths, deaths from the flu, and deaths from heart issues are all down and can be attributed to blindly ascribing Covid as the cause of death.

Interesting. Would you please share source(s) on this ?

www.youtube.com/embed/K8E_zMLCRNg

I answered back on 377. Sorry I didn't use the quote function, but I figured most would just follow the thread.

logic says

Do you really think there is nothing Trump could have done differently in his response that might have made for a better response?

No, nothing that would have affected the outcome of an airborne virus that was already spreading around before anyone even thought it was here. Anyone's words and actions would have been too late to have made a dent in this virus because the people we paid on things like this flat out lied.

I don't like the way Trump speaks and behaves much the time. But again, it has zero influence on an already spreading virus. Our top "expert" on this said don't wear masks, even once we had a better idea of the extent of the outbreak. WHO lie. China lied. Trump veers left when everyone is telling him go right and everyone would be calling for impeachment 2.0. Fact is Trump listened to his advisors. If he didn't he'd get blasted as fucking up. And when he does, it's too little too late and a fuck up in Trump hating world. Many don't even give him a chance because they got the blinders on and have been brainwashed.

Now on to Cuomo to balance this out. He fucked up with the nursing homes, but in all honesty where the hell was he going to put them? And again China and WHO lied about the who, what, when and where of this virus for months. I'm actually pretty balanced politically (Independent) so it's hard for me to bus toss Cuomo for a new virus everyone was lying about. It'll go in the mistake column for sure, but the way NYC is built, it was likely to spread in the places it hit anyway.

There's zero correlation to Trumps words and actions to the number of cases and deaths. None. Show me some proof that Trumps words and actions changed the outcome and spread of CV-19?

logic says

It's the speaking and behavior that I question and how it calms the fears of a country.

Who the fuck said anyone is afraid or fearful? Who is afraid of something they cannot control? That makes no sense. I don't look to some other individual to take care of me or calm my fears for me. I deal with the situation. If you're afraid of this virus, stay the fuck home. Trump has nothing to do with the topic and can't do anything for you anyway. Government is the absolute last place you should put your trust in.

logic says

Did I say there was?

Then WTF does Trump have to do with a virus!!! You keep bringing him up, not me. The OP is a discussion about the death rate of a virus! Yet somehow Trump has something to do with a naturally occurring virus? There's not an argument to be had here and you keep arguing about how to argue... Huh?

You're correlating the behavior of Trump and some weak people's fears. What is the point in that exercise? Just bash Trump in the many other threads that are readily available for that type of thing. Especially after AF's outburst. We're talking the death rate for this virus and that lead to discussion of over counting natural cause or comorbidity deaths with regards to COVID-19. COVID-19 had nothing to do with Trump. Zero. If you're afraid, then vote in a better leader, go to church, find a therapist or whatever. You don't like Trump, we get it. We don't care. Especially with regards to a topic that doesn't involve him.

logic says

Is that the year? So 40 plus years of using illegal labor.

Sad😢

Sometimes TDS makes you not see the facts of a situation and makes one look really hard for confirmation even if it is tangential and half a century old.

jazz_music says

. (Trump was also found to have improperly withheld compensation in the undocumented Polish worker controversy.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/donald-trump-scandals/474726/

logic says

The posted article doesn't address why or if over counting is happening It's really not a source for the argument trying to be made.

logic says

I referred to straw man fallacy

logic says

I had to endure straw man after straw man

logic says

with the same straw man.

logic says

the straw men keep coming out to play.

You do know that straws are illegal in many leftist enclaves, don'tcha?

logic says

Those who try to argue Trump doesn't lie are obviously deranged.

Hyperbole and exaggeration, yes. Tell us what you think Trump's biggest baddest lie is?

logic says

Do you honestly believe that this country got shut down without people having fear?

Yes. Because we have affluenza and alienation, millions of Karens saw this as a fantastic opportunity to actualize their sense of superiority.

Additionally, millions of school teachers and government workers saw their chance to get paid without working.

And most of all, the virus is incredibly overhyped in the desperation to find a crisis to stick on Trump.

Which is why we never hear about Pelosi and DeBlasio and Fartwell pushing the Lunar Festival, encouraging Mass Transit use, and explaining the Xenophobia behind masks.

logic says

Trump is just not cut out for the job.

What makes your guy Biden better?

Not expecting cogent answers.

socal2 says

WookieMan says

It's a virus. Trump, Bush, Obama, etc. ain't gonna stop it. It's going to kill who it's going to kill. But hey, Trump bad.

It would be one thing if the US was doing uniquely bad compared to other Western Countries in Wuhan AIDS fatalities.

If we removed Cuomo and DeBlasio's fuck-ups in New York, America would be the envy of the world in combating this Pandemic.

One of the main reasons for Germany's low reported death rate is their reporting methodology. They report only COVID-19 deaths that can be attributed solely to the virus. Other countries, like the USA, have less strict guidelines, and report more cases. When all the data are in, there will be a lot of revisioning, but only to match the narrative of the respective agency (CDC, WHO, etc.) They will all want to look "right" so they can say they made the "right" decisions.

News agencies will massage this revised data to greatest effect: to generally make Trump look bad, and that "he made the wrong decisions" and "can't handle a crisis." I would dispute this based on his performance so far in many areas: Economy, Jobs, War, and Foreign Affairs. I think voters in November may remember these things. The Left seriously wants this "crisis" to extend into the fall, when they will undoubtedly be calling for Trump's removal as the virus "bounces back." This will, of course, be due to Trump's mishandling of -- everything.

logic says

Hate to break it to you bro but Cuomo is not the President

Three Weeks Ago: Governors, not Trump, have the power to decide for their States! TRUMP DOESN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO TELL GOVERNORS WHAT TO DO!

Today: Everything that happened, and all the cases in NYS, are Trump, not Cuomo's, fault. TRUMP IS THE PRESIDENT, NOT CUOMO!

logic says

Onvacation says

logic says

Trump is just not cut out for the job.

What makes your guy Biden better?

He's not Trump

So you would rather have a demented old groper who can't be trusted not to pick a fight at his town halls?

Trump Derangement Syndrome built that!

logic says

Onvacation says

. Tell us what you think Trump's biggest baddest lie is?

My point exactly 😂

So you got nothing. I have yet to see a TDS sufferer come up with an actual lie that Trump told. They twist his hyperbole into untruths but they can't come up with an actual lie.

logic says

When the shit hits the fan if people need there fears calmed by the government who else would they look to?

They look towards themselves, family, friends, church if you're into that type of thing, sports, activities, etc. Government is the absolute last place you should be looking to calm your fears. The main and really only function of federal government should be to protect us from physical harm from other enemies/countries in my opinion. All the other stuff is bullshit. I also don't know when "shit hit the fan" with regards to this topic. If you're under 65 you have something like a 0.09% chance of dying from it once you have it. Factor in those that don't have it and you'r talking a tiny fraction of people. That's not something to fear.

logic says

That is the problem with logical fallacies they lead to mistakes in reasoning. If you would simple debate the argument I'm making you might be able to make more sense of it. Maybe you don't even realize that you continue to misrepresent my argument.

Your "argument" is a moving target for fucks sake. First it was deaths are not being over reported with no evidence. NoCoup gave you evidence and I have 100% truthful evidence that you're more than welcome to not believe, but that doesn't take away that it's true. It then shifts to Trump is a shit leader and the country is scared. That has nothing to do with the topic. I just addressed what you were saying has nothing to do with the topic or a virus. I'm moving in whatever direction you're taking this. It's an online forum, so there are no formalities, but just admit you started arguing deaths being miscategorized to Trump is a shit leader. That's what happened. You did that, not me.

WookieMan says

The main and really only function of federal government should be to protect us from physical harm from other enemies/countries in my opinion. All the other stuff is bullshit.

Sounds like Trump is doing his job. The days of president's mandating third sex bathrooms are over!

Onvacation says

WookieMan says

The main and really only function of federal government should be to protect us from physical harm from other enemies/countries in my opinion. All the other stuff is bullshit.

Sounds like Trump is doing his job. The days of president's mandating third sex bathrooms are over!

It's also not his job to make my feelings better. It's a virus. How about people get pissed at Trump because he's not making it 75 and sunny year round. That pisses me off. Fucking Trump. What a loser.

If that's the expectation of an elected official than our society if more fucked than I thought.

logic says

That is the problem with logical fallacies, they lead to mistakes in reasoning. If you would simple debate the argument I'm making you might be able to make more sense of it. Maybe you don't even realize that you continue to misrepresent my argument. Take a step back clear your mind, maybe that will help for you to understand my argument. Until you want to debate my argument there isn't really much left to say.

🤦‍♂️ You're literally are arguing with yourself at this point. This isn't debate club for Christ's sake. Stop the lecture on arguments and reasoning. This got off the rails when you decided to bring Trump into it with no basis for doing so.

Death rates have nothing to do with Trump. Cases have nothing to do with Trump. Misreporting of natural cause deaths as COVID-19 has nothing to do with Trump. The fact I know deaths are being falsified as COVID-19 has nothing to do with Trump. The fact you've brought no evidence to counter my point has nothing to do with Trump. For the 10th time, you don't have to believe me, but that doesn't make what I know false. You seem hung up on that fact. Then shifted the conversation (not argument because there is none) to Trump. Who cares about Trump!

This has spiraled into nonsense at this point. Your argument is a moving target, so there's no discussion really being had here.

logic says

WookieMan says

It's also not his job to make my feelings better. It's a virus. How about people get pissed at Trump because he's not making it 75 and sunny year round. That pisses me off. Fucking Trump. What a loser.

If that's the expectation of an elected official than our society if more fucked than I thought.

Unfortunately I disagree, it's not an easy job and there are many aspects to it but to say one of those is not to calm the fears of the nation is just wrong. You are welcome to prove I'm wrong but please don't change my argument, no more straw men.

Also please tell me how calming fears and controlling weather are related. I don't follow. Why can't you argue my points? We could have wrapped this up a long time ago but you seem to continually misrepresent me. They have a term for this.

Latest numbers clearly confirm the long known observation that every highly contagious respiratory virus follows a similar curve with a sharp increase, plateau, then sharp drop-off, no matter what actions are taken. Trump did the only thing he could actually do, got gear and tests and talked up the economy and re-openings, as a president should.

logic says

My argument has not changed 1 bit.

What is your argument here? What is your point? It's not just me. Every time someone addresses you, you move the goalposts.

rocketjoe79 says

One of the main reasons for Germany's low reported death rate is their reporting methodology. They report only COVID-19 deaths that can be attributed solely to the virus. Other countries, like the USA, have less strict guidelines, and report more cases. When all the data are in, there will be a lot of revisioning, but only to match the narrative of the respective agency (CDC, WHO, etc.) They will all want to look "right" so they can say they made the "right" decisions.

News agencies will massage this revised data to greatest effect: to generally make Trump look bad, and that "he made the wrong decisions" and "can't handle a crisis." I would dispute this based on his performance so far in many areas: Economy, Jobs, War, and Foreign Affairs. I think voters in November may remember these things. The Left seriously wants this "crisis" to extend into the fall, when they wil...

You completely ignore data presented. NoCoup has posted stuff as well. I have anecdotal, yet 100% truthful data. What is your actual point/argument?

And why did Trump even get involved in this topic? But hey, keep arguing about how arguments should be argued....

Is this a new Iwog alt?

logic says

Lol, I've been here a long time. I've had multiple accounts but now this is my only one. No one has ever outed my original user name. I'm not iwog. Ive had the names hearding cats, starsky, hutch elgatouno and others but never Iwog I'm not Dan either. I did do a play on Dan's account so people would think I was him. Are you an alt account for Patrick?

Wasn't accusing you necessarily of being iwog. Your argument style is to argue about the conversation and how the other person is arguing the topic. Iwog was notorious for that and complaining about straw men. He'd create his own straw man by talking about rules of arguing/debating every time he was wrong. He was right a lot, but you could tell when he was backed into a corner every time.

I do feel like this topic has run it's course between us. I know what I've seen is true and I have no interest in ruining careers of my friends. Others have posted evidence to back up my claims from different sources. Without evidence that deaths are being accurately labeled, I believe we're at an impasse on this subject.

And again, topic has nothing to do with Trump.

logic says

My argument has not changed 1 bit

What is your argument? Orange Man Bad?

logic says

. I did do a play on Dan's account so people would think I was him.

Quack! Quack!

logic says

I'm arguing about how arguments shouldn't be made

Glad you clarified. It all makes sense now.

logic says

. You are trying to say I'm iwog, right?

No. He was smarter.

Your arguing about the argument is reminiscent of the duck's style of never admitting they was wrong ( no gender assumptions on whether drake or hen).

logic says

Again, I can only argue my argument not an argument I'm not making. Not sure how that doesn't makes sense.

Did you know that mallard's are known gang rapists?

logic says

Remember that time when you tried to say Star wars was in the genre of comedy? I do.

Was it not in a Star Wars thread about Kennedy or whatever her name was? Totally on topic. And of course, there's zero humor in the original trilogy, like none.... Guardians of The Galaxy is also a Sci-fi flick. Zero parts of that movie(s) are funny or could be categorized as comedy because it's labeled Sci-fi. That's your stance, you understand? I'm sure you've never heard of a "romantic comedy" or some other label. You just enjoy putting square pegs in round holes.... You've got to be tired of ducking with all the things flying over your head at this point.

You've been asked multiple times to lay out your argument. You keep saying straw man. That you can't argue something you didn't type or say. You haven't made an actual argument about anything to this point. We can only make straw men because we have zero clue what your actual argument is. You've yet to state your idea, position or argument. You keep resorting to "nah, straw man. I didn't say that, so I'll just continue to say nothing."

I'll ask one last time, what position that has been presented in the thread, do you disagree with? What is your disagreement? All we're doing to at this point is trying to read your mind as you shift from the stats are accurate to Trump is a bad leader, with not a link to back any of it up and just saying everyone is wrong.

WookieMan says

You've got to be tired of ducking

HeHe

logic says

Remember I'm winning

Yep! Your a winner!

jazz_music says

Hey

Orange man bad to the corps



nuff said

I'm glad Trump is letting these part time soldiers go back to work.