patrick.net

FP says

There is some small chance for the political pendulum to swing meaningfully to the left.

Wasn’t it the Clinton Presidency that gave us the quote: “It’s the economy, stupid!”?

If we get four years of escalating economic gains under Trump, he will be IMPOSSIBLE to replace in 2020. People will be like, “its working well so far, and the next guy could screw it up! My portfolio needs more Trump!”

@reality that was a very interesting post full of ideas I hadn’t considered! Thanks for posting!

Quigley says

four years of escalating economic gains

In a late stage business cycle? Dream on. At best a blow off top stock market.

FP says

In a late stage business cycle? Dram on. At best a blow off top stock market.

I guess I’m not educated enough about economics to understand your point. However, economists have been absolutely horrible at predicting the economy for the past forever, so I’m not going to second guess myself based on some academic exercise.

What I’ve seen from years of paying attention to markets is that people’s TRUE opinions on the market are what drives it up or down. When people (who are investors) genuinely believe there’s money to be made by participating in the economy, they invest and the economy improves. When they don’t, the opposite happens.

Right now everyone seems to believe the economy is improving and will continue to do so under our GEOTUS.
So the economy will continue to improve.
QED

anon_a8630 says

Bob, renters never pay property taxes. Those are the taxes that pay for county services, like schools and roads.

This has been beaten to death in another thread. Landlord pays the prop taxes. Never the renter. Renter pays to use the space to live. Landlord's balance sheet is irrelevant.

I know what property taxes are used for thank you very much. I write checks for plenty of them and have done so for a very long time. Unless the landlord is very, very stupid the renters pay everything. Mortgage, property taxes, insurance, maintenance, plus a reasonable rate of return. I would strongly suggest you stay out of rental real estate if you believe otherwise.

anon_a8630 says

Landlord pays the prop taxes. Never the renter. Renter pays to use the space to live.

Wow, just wow.

What do you thing the landlord spends that money on that he collects from the renter? Hookers?

bob2356 says

I would strongly suggest you stay out of rental real estate if you believe otherwise.

Great suggestion.

Quigley says

FP says

In a late stage business cycle? Dram on. At best a blow off top stock market.

I guess I’m not educated enough about economics to understand your point.

We've been in the late stage business cycle for an additional 3 years or so compared to normal cycles. Normally the bottom comes out every 6 - 8 years. The last bottom was 2008. One of my financial guys can't explain it either, so he says "just ride the wave".

Let me ask you real estate experts another question - say a landlord has many properties which are rented out, plus some other investment income. What happens if the landlord chooses to pay the property tax rolls using the income from the investments? Did the renters pay for property taxes in this case?

What if a landlord tries to set his rental price based upon the fact that his mortgage and interest payments are very high. What will happen to this landlord if comparable properties are only fetching much less in rent?

anon_670d2 says

Let me ask you real estate experts another question - say a landlord has many properties which are rented out, plus some other investment income. What happens if the landlord chooses to pay the property tax rolls using the income from the investments? Did the renters pay for property taxes in this case?

Yes the renters still pay for property taxes. How exactly it's paid is just a technicality.

anon_670d2 says

What if a landlord tries to set his rental price based upon the fact that his mortgage and interest payments are very high. What will happen to this landlord if comparable properties are only fetching much less in rent?

The property will remain vacant until he adjusts the rent to market.

Wrong - the renters IN ALL CASES only pay for use of the dwelling.

When you buy a car - you only pay for the car, not the auto company's expenses for making the car. How an auto company funds their expenses is irrelevant to the car buyer. The car buyer simply now has a car to use.

Your guy's logic is crazy: by your own definition, because car consumers and renters all pay taxes, then neither landlords nor auto companies should be subject to any tax whatsoever. Obviously, the government is not this retarded.

The government is not just retarded (IQ < 80); the IQ of government is Zero! Only individual human beings can think. "Government" is a made-up concept. There are individuals wearing costumes and claim to work on behalf of government, just like there are individuals wearing costumes and claim to speak on behalf of God. Most sheeple worship at the altar of one or the other. Just like the primary beneficial function of a government is keeping away other more despotic governments, the primary beneficial function of most religion is reducing the sheeple's worshiping of the government-god as default.

Tax on businesses may be able to rob business owners in the short run, but in the long run the cost gets passed onto the consumers . . . just like literal robbing of a corner store may in the short-run hit the bottom-line / cash register of the owner/operator, but in the long run that cost works into every item sold in the store. Fundamentally, it's the natural human beings that have to live. The businesses don't have to continue or stay in the hostile environment; they can pack up or close down if continuing business is not profitable.

Think about it, if a store gets robbed once every 3 months just like quarterly property tax collection, be it a robber wearing ski mask or a mafia owning the turf/neighborhood or a guy claiming to be the town tax-collector . . . if the robbing is that regular, you don't think the cost of the regular robbery gets worked into the price of goods sold at the store? especially if every competitor is robbed the same way every quarter hence having the same level of cost for doing business?

anon_0c821 says

Wrong - the renters IN ALL CASES only pay for use of the dwelling.

So what does the landlord do with the dollars he collects as the rent payment?

anon_ad0c3 says

anon_0c821 says

Wrong - the renters IN ALL CASES only pay for use of the dwelling.

So what does the landlord do with the dollars he collects as the rent payment?

You guys are just arguing semantics here.

Strategist says

Yes the renters still pay for property taxes. How exactly it's paid is just a technicality.

Right! It's technically correct to say that landlords pay the property tax, but they pay it with money they get from the tenants, so the tenants are in effect paying the property tax if not personally paying it to the government.

I will wait for when we discuss this again in a few months to comment. I know many renters are still not satisfied with the consensus.

anon_670d2 says

Let me ask you real estate experts another question - say a landlord has many properties which are rented out, plus some other investment income. What happens if the landlord chooses to pay the property tax rolls using the income from the investments? Did the renters pay for property taxes in this case?

Let's ask another nonsense question while we are at it - Is the moon actually made of green cheese? It is a nonsense question. If the properties are in an LLC then it's all separate and accounted for in the LLC. If you are not in an LLC all the money is just income and expenses no matter what the source or destination. It all goes into and out of a bank account.

anon_670d2 says

What if a landlord tries to set his rental price based upon the fact that his mortgage and interest payments are very high. What will happen to this landlord if comparable properties are only fetching much less in rent?

What if the moon were actually made of green cheese?

The tenant is paying the taxes no matter what silly semantic games you want to play.

Patrick says

Right! It's technically correct to say that landlords pay the property tax, but they pay it with money they get from the tenants, so the tenants are in effect paying the property tax if not personally paying it to the government.

It is semantics, but it is an important distinction and a fundamental law of economics--price is set by supply and demand and is independent of the cost of the good or service except in the very long run (which we never reach).

anonymous says

Tax overhaul deal sweetens for working class

Here's how to sweeten the deal. Every person saves $1 before anyone saves $2. Every person saves $100 before anyone saves $101. Simply lower everybody's taxes the exact same amount until their taxes reach zero. Now that would be tax reform.

Better yet, keep taxes where they are and give everyone an equal tax-free income based on what's available from spending cuts.

anon_1d1b8 says

Here's how to sweeten the deal. Every person saves $1 before anyone saves $2. Every person saves $100 before anyone saves $101. Simply lower everybody's taxes the exact same amount until their taxes reach zero. Now that would be tax reform.

I’m guessing you flunked math.

Higher earners would pay hardly anything under your system, even if everyone else’s taxes under $200k are reduced to zero.

Quigley says

I’m guessing you flunked math.

Higher earners would pay hardly anything under your system, even if everyone else’s taxes under $200k are reduced to zero.

Nope--everyone starts at today's level of taxes and any reductions are made equally in dollar terms. It would be much better than the current tax plan.

anon_8f378 says

Patrick says

Right! It's technically correct to say that landlords pay the property tax, but they pay it with money they get from the tenants, so the tenants are in effect paying the property tax if not personally paying it to the government.

It is semantics, but it is an important distinction and a fundamental law of economics--price is set by supply and demand and is independent of the cost of the good or service except in the very long run (which we never reach).

Supply and demand? WTF does that have to do with tenets paying rent which is used for paying taxes.

bob2356 says

Supply and demand? WTF does that have to do with tenets paying rent which is used for paying taxes.

The point is that rent is independent of the landlord's cost. Like I said--semantics.

anon_8f378 says

Nope--everyone starts at today's level of taxes and any reductions are made equally in dollar terms. It would be much better than the current tax plan.

Here's who benefits in the new plan:


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/here-are-the-winners-and-losers-of-the-final-version-of-the-republican-tax-bill-2017-12-18

In practice tenants pay for all expenses and more. Landlord don’t get into this business to lose money. They can sell the property at anytime, unlike most tenants who are stuck renting due to credit, qualification, etc.