patrick.net

Strategist says

They are in their right to defend themselves. If that means pulling out a gun and shooting the attacker to stop further punches, yes.

That's not quite how it works. If you have no other options, shooting is justified. You cannot just shoot anyone / everyone who punches you. I'd like to hear what happened before this too. What did this cop do to escalate the situation to the point that the guy got out of his car?

tatupu70 says

No they are not. You can't shoot someone because they "assaulted" you by touching your shoulder.

Ha ha ha. Since when is getting punched by a maniac "touching your shoulder"

I repeat....Society is better off with this criminal being dead.

Strategist says

Ha ha ha. Since when is getting punched by a maniac "touching your shoulder"

I repeat....Society is better off with this criminal being dead.

Do you think he was justifiably in fear for his life?

Ironman says

What else do we know about the Altar Boy, Mr. Small..

No one ever said that he was an alter boy. And no, I didn't read the whole article. I just searched for a video and watched it.
Ironman says

Why do you fucking Libbies always support these behaviors?

No one is supporting the behavior of Small. They are just condemning the behavior of the officer. How come you can't understand that their behaviors could be independently judged?

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

Ha ha ha. Since when is getting punched by a maniac "touching your shoulder"

I repeat....Society is better off with this criminal being dead.

Do you think he was justifiably in fear for his life?

I think it's 50-50 that he feared for his life. The cop gets the befit of the doubt, period.

YesYNot says

No one is supporting the behavior of Small. They are just condemning the behavior of the officer. How come you can't understand that their behaviors could be independently judged?

Why care for the life of a criminal maniac?

Strategist says

I think it's 50-50 that he feared for his life. The cop gets the befit of the doubt, period.

If he feared for his life in that situation he shouldn't be a cop. Period.

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

I think it's 50-50 that he feared for his life. The cop gets the befit of the doubt, period.

If he feared for his life in that situation he shouldn't be a cop. Period.

Easy to play Monday morning Quarterback isn't it? Cops have human reactions too. How would you have reacted in that situation?

Strategist says

Easy to play Monday morning Quarterback isn't it? Cops have human reactions too. How would you have reacted in that situation?

Cops have training in how to deal with situations like this. How to deal with angry citizens. How to reduce the tension and anger rather than escalate it.

I can think of any number of ways to deal with this situation. Drive off. Shut the window. Don't pull over in the first place.

Strategist says

Why care for the life of a criminal maniac?

Because I'm not psychotic, and think that criminals should be arrested and charged instead of shot dead in the street. Ironman says

and there's the problem, you'll just run with the headline and the liberal MSM narrative..

You overuse the fuck out of the word 'narrative.' It's comical. I watched the video and decided for myself. What do you think of the video?

Ironman says

narrative

Narrative is just a trendy word to describe someone spinning a story instead of trying to remain objective. Using it once in a while to make a point is interesting. Using it inappropriately in most of your posts is boring and meaningless, which I guess is just part of your personality.

Ironman says

short videos don't tell the WHOLE story..

When the story is short, short videos can tell the whole story. The only thing that's missing here is what exactly Small did when he got to the window. What you can see clearly is that he was only there for a split second.

blame it all on black lives matter.
chanting 'kill the cops'
now you have all the cops on hair trigger alert.
Thanks BLM!

YesYNot says

Here's a video. That cop should be prosecuted.

He could have just driven off and avoided the whole thing. Instead, it appears he had his gun ready, because he shot the guy right after he got to the window.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Video-NYPD-Cop-Deadly-Shooting-Unarmed-Driver-Road-Rage-Dispute-Brooklyn-386069041.html

You really made all these conclusion from that video? Unless the version showing now is somehow different from what you've seen the video simply doesn't support it. The hands of the attacker are obscured by the car, so there is no way to know whether he was able to lend a punch. As for "driving away" : wasn't the car stopped because of red light? Would you drive away into city intersection with red light on?

errc says

Whatever happened to an eye for an eye? Are you really that much of a pussy that if someone swings on you, your first reaction is shoot to kill?

What would be you first reaction when someone swings on you while you're sitting down restrained by a seatbelt, car door and steering wheel? Cry for mommy?

You might have some chance against even a good puncher when meeting him standing up face-to-face. Sitting in the car - not so much.

Straw Man says

What would be you first reaction when someone swings on you while you're sitting down restrained by a seatbelt, car door and steering wheel? Cry for mommy?

You might have some chance against even a good puncher when meeting him standing up face-to-face. Sitting in the car - not so much.

But we're talking about a cop here. Someone who should be an expert at defusing these types of situations first, and an expert at getting control of such situations without resorting to deadly force, second. If cops can't handle a simple road rage incident without shooting to kill, we're doing something wrong.

tatupu70 says

But we're talking about a cop here. Someone who should be an expert at defusing these types of situations first, and an expert at getting control of such situations without resorting to deadly force, second.

"Diffuse" how? He was rushed by some guy from what seems less than 30 ft. There is barely time to pull a gun (21 feet is the widely accepted minimum distance for self-defense), what kind of "diffusion" do you propose in situation like this? Anybody without a gun would most probably be knocked-out while still sitting in the car.

Straw Man says

"Diffuse" how? He was rushed by some guy from what seems less than 30 ft. There is barely time to pull a gun (21 feet is the widely accepted minimum distance for self-defense), what kind of "diffusion" do you propose in situation like this? Anybody without a gun would most probably be knocked-out while still sitting in the car

Well, for starters, you don't need a gun to diffuse this situation. It's a wonder what can happen if a cop stays calm and de-escalates the tension of a situation. I know that's the opposite of what they are taught these days. They pull out the gun immediately now.

And your statement is idiotic. You think someone sitting in a car is going to automatically be knocked out by a guy who has to try to punch through a window?? And how about rolling up the window until he settles down?

tatupu70 says

But we're talking about a cop here. Someone who should be an expert at defusing these types of situations

Training can only go so far. Emotions will take precedence over training.

tatupu70 says

Well, for starters, you don't need a gun to diffuse this situation.

Pointing a gun at someone is the best way of diffusing a situation like this. The second best is to just shoot.

tatupu70 says

Well, for starters, you don't need a gun to diffuse this situation. It's a wonder what can happen if a cop stays calm and de-escalates the tension of a situation. I know that's the opposite of what they are taught these days. They pull out the gun immediately now.

And your statement is idiotic. You think someone sitting in a car is going to automatically be knocked out by a guy who has to try to punch through a window?? And how about rolling up the window until he settles down?

No, it's you who make idiotic statements. I asked you specifically, what exactly you propose to "diffuse" the situation and all you got is "roll up windows". That's it or you have something else?

PS. I'll address "roll up defense" after I get an exhaustive list of your "diffusion remedies" for a situation when someone rushes to punch or stab you from 20-30ft while you're sitting in the car.

Cops never LIE!
Trust but verify!
Got a clear video of the punches.

The deceased seemed to be acting irrationally, and certainly behaved unwisely. Do black males have a greater tendency to do so?

Disrespect seems to be a justifiable killing offense in some communities. That likely comes from a low sense of self-worth.

Straw Man says

so there is no way to know whether he was able to lend a punch.

Yeah, I conceded, that you can't tell what happened in the split second he was there. He could have thrown a punch as soon as he got there. What I think you can conclude is that he saw the guy coming and had his gun out. He could have just as easily rolled up his window and glanced at the light to see that it was changing. The other car drove off as the gun went off. So, the cross traffic light would have been yellow as Smalls was approaching the car. My point is only that the officer immediately went for his gun when he didn't have to. Of course, I'm not saying he's guilty, but I do think it ought to be settled in a trial.

Ironman says

If Small didn't have a disregard for the law and better moral values, which is ALL 100% under HIS control, he would be alive today.

I agree, but you are missing the point 100%. His transgressions did not merit the death penalty by judge, jury, and executioner. Smalls should have avoided getting killed by just tapping the brakes and moving on with his life instead of road raging. The officer could have avoided killing the guy by avoiding conflict rather than going directly for the gun.

Straw Man says

No, it's you who make idiotic statements. I asked you specifically, what exactly you propose to "diffuse" the situation and all you got is "roll up windows". That's it or you have something else?

PS. I'll address "roll up defense" after I get an exhaustive list of your "diffusion remedies" for a situation when someone rushes to punch or stab you from 20-30ft while you're sitting in the car.

You're missing the point. I haven't been trained as a cop. But, just for you, here are some links:

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylc=X3oDMTFiN25laTRvBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEaXRjAzEEc2VjA3NyY2hfcWEEc2xrA3NyY2h3ZWI-?p=how+to+diffuse+violent+situation&fr=yfp-t&fp=1&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

https://ca.ctrinstitute.com/on-site-training/dpvs-onsite/

http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2011/04/25/police-diffuse-violent-situation-using-lollipops/

I like the last one. Lollipops are more powerful than guns.

Straw Man says

PS. I'll address "roll up defense" after I get an exhaustive list of your "diffusion remedies" for a situation when someone rushes to punch or stab you from 20-30ft while you're sitting in the car.

I'm waiting with bated breath.

tatupu70 says

You're missing the point. I haven't been trained as a cop.

Oh, the fact that you have no clue about the shit you're trying to proselytize about is painfully apparent.

tatupu70 says

: But, just for you, here are some links:

Fuck links. Tell in your own words how you propose to "diffuse" a guy suddenly charging to punch/stab you from 20-30 ft while you're sitting in the car at a red light.

tatupu70 says

Lollipops are more powerful than guns.

So you'd offer him a lollipop? That would make him go from full attack to BFF in 3 sec, guaranteed. LOL.

Straw Man says

PS. I'll address "roll up defense" after I get an exhaustive list of your "diffusion remedies" for a situation when someone rushes to punch or stab you from 20-30ft while you're sitting in the car.

tatupu70 says

I'm waiting with bated breath.

Any police officer (and CCW holder) is aware of Tueller Drill:

"The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being accused of murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat."

So, I went into garage and timed how long it takes to raise driver window on two of my cars.

For the first one - a newish sedan - it took slightly more than 4 sec (in auto mode). At 2 sec mark the opening was plenty wide enough to throw a series of successful punches. At 3 sec mark it becomes more difficult but still plenty doable, especially with a knife.

Then I timed an older convertible. For that one it took 6.5 sec to close the window completely (no auto mode, so I had to keep pressing the button). Since the window is much narrower in that car, I would say that the driver would be in relative safety at about 4 sec mark.

Now, back to our video: the driver obviously doesn't have the luxury of 3-4 seconds (+ reaction time) it would take to notice the attacker and roll up the window high enough to somewhat mitigate the threat. He reacted to the attacker in 21ft zone as he was trained to (and in only realistic way).

You with your lollipops would probably be brain-dead from the punches. But it's OK, not much difference anyway.

Straw Man says

Oh, the fact that you have no clue about the shit you're trying to proselytize about is painfully apparent.

I have no clue about what? That cops should be trained to defuse situations without resorting to shooting unarmed civilians? No, I'm pretty sure I do have a clue about that.

Straw Man says

Fuck links. Tell in your own words how you propose to "diffuse" a guy suddenly charging to punch/stab you from 20-30 ft while you're sitting in the car at a red light.

Let me rephrase that for you. "I don't want to read things that might disagree with my viewpoint."

Straw Man says

So you'd offer him a lollipop? That would make him go from full attack to BFF in 3 sec, guaranteed. LOL.

Yes, that's exactly right. That was clearly the point of that link.

Straw Man says

Any police officer (and CCW holder) is aware of Tueller Drill:

Great-so your plan is to shoot anyone with 21 feet that might be violent?

Straw Man says

So, I went into garage and timed how long it takes to raise driver window on two of my cars.

For the first one - a newish sedan - it took slightly more than 4 sec (in auto mode). At 2 sec mark the opening was plenty wide enough to throw a series of successful punches. At 3 sec mark it becomes more difficult but still plenty doable, especially with a knife.

Then I timed an older convertible. For that one it took 6.5 sec to close the window completely (no auto mode, so I had to keep pressing the button). Since the window is much narrower in that car, I would say that the driver would be in relative safety at about 4 sec mark.

Now, back to our video: the driver obviously doesn't have the luxury of 3-4 seconds (+ reaction time) it would take to notice the attacker and roll up the window high enough to somewhat mitigate the threat. He reacted to the attacker in 21ft zone as he was trained to (and in only realistic way).

Why doesn't he? Is the cop utterly defenseless without pulling his gun? Does he know any self defense skills? wtf--they teach 40 year old women joggers basic self defense. This guy can't do anything without pulling his gun?

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

Ha ha ha. Since when is getting punched by a maniac "touching your shoulder"

I repeat....Society is better off with this criminal being dead.

Do you think he was justifiably in fear for his life?

Absolutely, don't be obtuse. A thug suddenly shows up at your car door during running traffic and starts punching you, fuck yeah you should fear for your life, there's plenty of other things that can go wrong in traffic besides him delivering a blow that may have lasting effects. Absolutely justified, no doubt whatsoever.

mell says

Absolutely, don't be obtuse

He didn't suddenly show up. There was obviously a run-up to the incident.

But regardless, when is a shooting not justified in your mind. Keeping in mind Tueller's Drill--anyone within 21 feet is a potential killer. Running at you aggressively? Is that justification? Sneaking up on you from behind? A shove in the back followed by cocking ones arm? What's your criteria?

And, fyi--you don't get to shoot someone because "things might go wrong"

Remember, turnabout is fair play.

You sissy fuck nerds cowering in the corner hoping that a cop will come and let you blow him, are making the case that everytime a person comes in earshot of a cop, that they should justifiably shoot said cop, to kill. Because fear

errc says

Remember, turnabout is fair play.

You sissy fuck nerds cowering in the corner hoping that a cop will come and let you blow him, are making the case that everytime a person comes in earshot of a cop, that they should justifiably shoot said cop, to kill. Because fear

Cops cannot operate this way, they may have older officers or females and they don't have the luxury to assess whether they are up for "eye for an eye". You could argue that they should carry tasers and use those first, but the moment somebody steps out, walks over to a car and starts beating the person inside that person has every right to defend themselves, by any means, which includes lethal force, cop or not. Also your point about shooting a cop because fear is not valid IMO because you can predict that if you act in a most complying way the cops will never harm or shoot you, because they have their orders. You can still file charges later and try pressing charges and prosecute the cop if they treated you unfairly. With so few exceptions that they are not worth talking about you do not have to fear for your life when you encounter a cop. You may be harassed and they may be abusing their authority, but they will not shoot you. There is a way of being critical of the police state and militarization of cops and at the same time review most of these cases being brought up and conclude clearly that the person brought that onto themselves. On the rare occasion of an encounter with the cops I show my hands at all times and indicate when I am reaching for the glove compartment to get my license and registration, and I don't tell them to fuck off. I also felt harassed once or twice without reason but it wasn't worth getting shot, it pretty much never is. How hard is that to understand and follow, and not get shot? Don't let your ego get in the way, you may have family to care for and you're no good to them dead.

tatupu70 says

He didn't suddenly show up. There was obviously a run-up to the incident.

But regardless, when is a shooting not justified in your mind. Keeping in mind Tueller's Drill--anyone within 21 feet is a potential killer. Running at you aggressively? Is that justification? Sneaking up on you from behind? A shove in the back followed by cocking ones arm? What's your criteria?

And, fyi--you don't get to shoot someone because "things might go wrong"

I'm a pretty strong guy and somewhat self-defense trained but I would never pick a fight unless absolutely necessary. The moment this guy started beating the cop the shooting was justified, period. Again, you could argue for taser use instead, but questionable if you can make that decision in that situation and if you have one at hand. It could have been a female or older officer or he could have simply felt completely overpowered by the assailant. If you do decide to fight for whatever reason and it's not among friends and you cannot determine whether the person is armed, on drugs or otherwise determined to badly harm you, then assume the worst and fight as if your life is at stake, it may very well be.

Ironman says

tatupu70 says

Straw Man says

So you'd offer him a lollipop? That would make him go from full attack to BFF in 3 sec, guaranteed. LOL.

Yes, that's exactly right.

This comment by Tatty has to be repeated, it's so fucking clueless, words can't describe it...

So Tatty thinks at Midnight in Brooklyn when a unknown guy charges your car and your window is open, all you need to do is offer him a lollipop and he'll calm down....

Un-Fucking-Believable..

If Tatu was a cop he would be dead.

I used to keep a set of Groucho Marx funny face/ glasses in my car to diffuse road rage situations. Using humor or doing something unexpected is pretty effective at calming someone down.
You really can't tell how upset that guy was or wasn't. He didn't seem to be moving that fast to me though. It looked like he walked up to the window, and was shot pretty soon after. Did the guy land a good punch? It's not clear at all why he was shot.

Strategist says

This comment by Tatty has to be repeated, it's so fucking clueless, words can't describe it...

So Tatty thinks at Midnight in Brooklyn when a unknown guy charges your car and your window is open, all you need to do is offer him a lollipop and he'll calm down....

Un-Fucking-Believable..

If Tatu was a cop he would be dead.

Wow--Add inability to understand sarcasm to the list of Ironman's deficiencies.