patrick.net

Lofty pie in the sky populist rabble rousing schemes is NOT a solution.

Expecially when you got Monsters like Gruber in the wings waiting to take ownership of those projects the Libs greenlight.
Liberals don't have solutions they have ideas that change based on what needs to be said to win the vote.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/p/briefing/factsheets/2015/08/10/college-compact/

If you have student debt, you will be able to refinance your loans at current rates, with an estimated 25 million borrowers receiving debt relief. Typical borrowers could save $2,000 over the life of their loans.

Hillary just bought my vote. This will save my wife and I $5K to 10K / yr. The fed gov subsidizes the shit out of house refis, and then provides a tax deduction on interest. They inexplicably won't do the same for student loans, which is odd considering an education is a much more noble way to spend money than outbidding someone else for a spot and throwing up an over-sized crap-shack. If the republicans would offer any type of solution, they could play ball. Of course, when it comes to the general election, the anti-Hillary option will be a train-wreck for all sorts of other reasons. So, she would likely be the best option anyway.

CaptainShuddup says

Liberals don't have solutions

Ds have imperfect solutions, which are necessarily crappy compromises with obstructionist toady Rs. Take Obamacare as an instance. It has lowered medical costs and hugely increased the rate of insured people. So, it was a solution that solved some problems with our shitty health-care industry. But, it was a crappy compromise, and inferior to a single payer system. We got it, b/c Obama ran to the right of Clinton (who favored a single payer system), and worked with the obstructionist Rs enough to get something to pass. The Rs of course wanted something private (because public is always inferior), and they wanted to appease their insurance industry buddies.

tatupu70 says

I want to create more schools/programs so there is competition for students and tuition goes down.

There isn't any lack of schools to go to. The competition is for the bill of goods called the good schools. The education industry has sold this sad lie to virtually every parent and high school educator and apparently to you. The education industry has built these gold plated education verseille palaces to sell themselves as a "good school". These edifices to ego can't be undone so the only option is to charge huge amounts of money to support them. Yes student loans and grants are the problem. Tuitions have gone up in lockstep with the rise in federal aid for 35 years. Coincidence, I think not.

There are plenty of options if you don't want to rack up huge loans. Community colleges will get you half way home on the cheap, especially if you live with mommy and daddy. But who wants to admit little johnny is in community college instead of harvard. Bill of goods sold.

You might have to move somewhere and work for a year to establish residency, but there are schools with good reputations that are less than 5k a year or roughly 400 a month. You can still get in state tuition at my alma matter University of Texas Pan Am for 6k a year. Plus living in the Rio Grande valley is dirt cheap. Anyone that can't put aside 400-500 a month isn't really trying very hard. You can do military service. You can do ROTC. You can do public service. You can go overseas, germany has free tuition. Spain, france, and italy is little as 500 a year. I knew someone who at 16 took college courses on an exchange (living with relatives) in europe, stayed for 2 years and transferred back to the US as a junior at 18 into a really high end school on a scholarship because they spoke 3 languages fluently. Never got a high school diploma, just a ged. There are lots of ways to skin a cat.

The whole thing is a gigantic scam that virtually every parent has bought into hook, line, and sinker marching like lemmings through the process without thinking at all. It can't be fixed either. There is far too much money and ego involved for that to happen.

Call it Crazy says

There you have it folks... This is why this guy makes it to the top of Patnet's idiot lists..

He doesn't know the difference between COST and PAY!!

You've really gone off the deep end this time CIC.

bob2356 says

The education industry has sold this sad lie to virtually every parent and high school educator and apparently to you

Nobody has sold anything to me. You didn't see me making an appeal to authority or quoting any supposed expert. I'm just going by data. Cost of secondary education is rising at a rate much higher than inflation. So, supply is not keeping up with demand. bob2356 says

Yes student loans and grants are the problem. Tuitions have gone up in lockstep with the rise in federal aid for 35 years. Coincidence, I think not.

Of course it's not a coincidence. Student loans allow people who couldn't afford to go otherwise, get to University. With no student loans, demand would be lower and prices would follow. The question is why hasn't supply gone up as tuition has risen?? If there was competition among schools for students, tuition wouldn't be rising.

Call it Crazy says

Tat, You are such a fucking idiot!

CIC--you really should know when to shut the fuck up. This conversation has been way over your head for probably the last 25 posts. You clearly don't understand basic economics or why federal aid results in higher prices. Why don't you go post some more Republican polling data.

Call it Crazy says

Wait, you've been telling us all along that higher prices were caused by higher demand by students and lack of available colleges and we needed more built....

Why the flip-flop on what causes higher prices??

If he keeps this up he will have to change his name to Krugman.

Call it Crazy says

Wait, you've been telling us all along that higher prices were caused by higher demand by students and lack of available colleges and we needed more built....

Why the flip-flop on what causes higher prices??

You're such a fucking idiot, you don't remember what you previously posted!

You are the most clueless poster on here. Take a step back and think about it for a second. What does all this government loan money going to lower income families that couldn't afford college do? It allows people who couldn't go to school, to now be able to attend. Are you starting to get it?

No? When you have more people wanting and able to buy a service, that is increased demand! Is it starting to sink in now?

tatupu70 says

You are the most clueless poster on here. Take a step back and think about it for a second. What does all this government loan money going to lower income families that couldn't afford college do? It allows people who couldn't go to school, to now be able to attend. Are you starting to get it?

Yea, sure right. That's why the ivies and potted ivies are 2000 per credit and many state schools are 500 per credit because all the poor people who couldn't afford college can now afford to go there instead of a 50 dollar a credit community college or a 150 dollar a credit 4 year school like utpa. It's the same product. The difference in price is image and marketing, not quality. The price demand is about status, not not ability to attend.

Bill of goods sold. Want to buy swamp land in florida? I'll sell it really cheap.

Call it Crazy says

Well, not everybody.... You and Tat are excluded from that list...

This makes no sense. It was a logical stretch even for you.

Tat has it partially right, but the biggest reason is free money and the lack of jobs for uneducated. The choice is hard for an 18 yr old. The best value surely seems to be a 2 yr community college with a transfer to a regular school in Junior year. But that takes a high level of maturity.

YesYNot says

Tat has it partially right, but the biggest reason is free money and the lack of jobs for uneducated. The choice is hard for an 18 yr old. The best value surely seems to be a 2 yr community college with a transfer to a regular school in Junior year. But that takes a high level of maturity.

That's what high school guidance counselors are paid to do, guide students to the best option for them. Except high schools are all caught in the ego trip of having their kids graduate and go to "good schools". When was the last time you saw a high school bragging about how many kids went to community college?

The best value is going to school in germany for free. Even better degrees in europe are 3 years not 4. The rest of the world doesn't believe in this wasting a year core curriculum well rounded student bullshit. Everyone else thinks if students want to learn about rocks for jocks or jacking off in the middle ages they an do it on their own time, not waste expensive education resources.

bob2356 says

The best value is going to school in germany for free.

Is this practical for a kid from the US? It sounds too good to be true. How would a kid go about doing this? Do they need to know German? Do they just apply? Is it as easy to get in as it is for Germans (I understand that it is not easy for Germans either), or is this for the top 0.5% of the population?

bob2356 says

That's what high school guidance counselors are paid to do, guide students to the best option for them.

I'd agree with this. Guidance counselors are probably not doing a good job here. It would be interesting to know, though, if kids that go to CC for two years are very likely to graduate from a 4 yr college (if that was their intent). I think it takes some serious maturity beyond getting the seed planted by a counselor.

lostand confused says

Clinton to propose $350 billion college affordability plan.

What a unique campaign strategy. Promising free stuff to the masses! Next will be tax reform. These are some really out of the box thinkers.

bob2356 says

When was the last time you saw a high school bragging about how many kids went to community college?

Or how many went to a vocational school.

Mom, Dad, guest what? I got accepted at X university. They are going to allow you to give them 40K a year so I can party with the popular kids. Isn't that great?

YesYNot says

Is this practical for a kid from the US? It sounds too good to be true. How would a kid go about doing this? Do they need to know German? Do they just apply? Is it as easy to get in as it is for Germans (I understand that it is not easy for Germans either), or is this for the top 0.5% of the population?

It's very practical. My son is probably going there for university in a few years (I'm pushing hard for spain, spanish would open up more opportunities than german and he's already studied spanish). He sure as hell isn't going to college in the US, even we are still living in the states then. Many courses are taught in english, but that would negate one of the biggest advantages of going overseas in the first place, becoming fluent in another language. I've hosted a lot of germans, mostly college students, over the years and talked about the university system with them extensively. None have said getting into a university is hard. Getting into highly competative programs like medicine (it's a 6 year combined college/medical school program) is hard, but that's everywhere. Universities that I've seen in europe are nothing like universities in the US. Basically big buildings with classrooms. No dorms, no sports stadiums, no student union, etc., etc.. You go to class and leave. If you really want some information this is a start. https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/en/

bob2356 says

If you really want some information this is a start. https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/en/

Thanks for posting all of this stuff. It sounds like a fantastic deal if there are no restrictions. It's like getting cancer and finding out that you will just die in the US, but that you can move to Canada and get nearly free care.

Not saying that taking Germany up on their offer isn't advantageous. But Germany's reasons for doing it aren't exactly super noble. They are having a problem with their negative growth. So they don't have enough younger workers to pay into the system. The free university offer is made in the hopes that the working population will swell enough to pay the bill left by the older generation. They are offering education in the hopes that you will stay and pay into their system.

bob2356 says

Yea, sure right. That's why the ivies and potted ivies are 2000 per credit and many state schools are 500 per credit because all the poor people who couldn't afford college can now afford to go there instead of a 50 dollar a credit community college or a 150 dollar a credit 4 year school like utpa. It's the same product. The difference in price is image and marketing, not quality. The price demand is about status, not not ability to attend.

Bill of goods sold. Want to buy swamp land in florida? I'll sell it really cheap.

I don't really disagree with you. It probably would be better to make government grants or loans require community college for the first 2 years and low cost state schools for the last two years. That would be fine. Although this would probably lead to community college prices going up instead of/along with Universities.

Certainly we shouldn't be subsidizing high cost private unis.

But that's really different than my point that ability to attend college shouldn't be based on your family's wealth.

Call it Crazy says

The government money that goes to the lower income families is EXACTLY why the cost of college has gone up. If these families didn't have this money available and had to pay out of pocket, guess where the cost of college would be? It's the same thing you've been preaching about how demand controls product prices, not cost the businesses have to pay.

Seriously--you are without a doubt the biggest idiot on pat.net. No shit. I've said this about 10 times on this very thread.

Your plan is to keep half the population so poor that they can't buy anything. That way demand is low so prices go down. It's basically the personification of "got mine, eff you". We can be like all the other 3rd world countries with gated communities of mansions surrounded by homeless camps. Somalia is your wet dream.

Keep voting Republican and we'll get there. Just don't come to my mansion when your at the homeless camp.

Call it Crazy says

Forget about lowering college costs, you think the costs are just fine!!! All those professors should be paid $400K a year to teach one class....

$400k and one class? You're going to make a lot of professors awfully happy.

tatupu70 says

Your plan is to keep half the population so poor that they can't buy anything.

That's your plan, since we already having too many college graduates, having even more is going to depress salaries for people who already have them (it's called supply and demand, look it up). That plu all the disgruntled people who will have wasted years of their life in a school that took their money and really didn't help them out in life.

Call it Crazy says

Forget about lowering college costs, you think the costs are just fine!!! All those professors should be paid $400K a year to teach one class....

You're so fucked in the head it's scary!!!!

wtf is wrong with you. I've said costs are too high and I've said how it should be fixed. You're just too stupid to understand how economics work so you can't understand. Like I said earlier, why don't you leave this thread to the adults so we can have a real discussion without your continuous trolling posts.

zzyzzx says

That's your plan, since we already having too many college graduates, having even more is going to depress salaries for people who already have them (it's called supply and demand, look it up). That plu all the disgruntled people who will have wasted years of their life in a school that took their money and really didn't help them out in life.

If you look at the chart I posted earlier, unemployment among college grads is half or a third of that of non-college educated people. So, the reality is we have too many non-college grads.

Call it Crazy says

That's a lie, you just want more easy money...

I'm not even sure what that means. My kids won't qualify for any government loans.

Call it Crazy says

Yeah, build MORE colleges... that's really smart

That's typically what happens in the free market when a particular subset of service providers are making high profits. That attracts more competition. My question is why isn't that happening? Since the free market is obviously failing, yes, I propose building more state schools.

Call it Crazy says

Oh, your having a real discussion alright...

your. lol

Call it Crazy says

Yep, so let's load MORE college grads with $100K of debt so they can sit in mom's basement and play video games all day....

You're so clueless, I can hardly wait for your kids to get to college age..

Or we can create more college grads with little to no debt that are productive members of society. Instead of unemployed and/or turning into criminals.

I'm laughing--do you think you "got" me? If there are 100 widgets and 500 people wanting them--you can decrease the demand by 5%, there still isn't enough supply.

And, maybe things are getting better over the last 2 years. If so, I'd expect that tuition prices would start leveling off and not increasing so quickly. That would be a welcome change.

The bottom line is that you are basically arguing against basic economics. If the price of a product or service is increasing faster than inflation, then by definition, demand is outstripping supply.

affordable college with more students as output is absolutely worthless, no wait - damaging in fact, without an adequate supply of good paying jobs to support it.

weak wages and weak wage growth coupled with loan debt (even if smaller) across an increasing amount of "students" is HORRIBLE for the economy.

but it is great for "educators" and the "administrators" of those "institutions"

Call it Crazy says

tatupu70 says

If the price of a product or service is increasing faster than inflation, then by definition, demand is outstripping supply.

Have you ever had an Economics class?

landtof says

affordable college with more students as output is absolutely worthless, no wait - damaging in fact, without an adequate supply of good paying jobs to support it.

weak wages and weak wage growth coupled with loan debt (even if smaller) across an increasing amount of "students" is HORRIBLE for the economy.

but it is great for "educators" and the "administrators" of those "institutions"

I fail to see how having a better educated population is bad for the economy or society.

We have too many high school educated folks now. How is adding to that population better? We certainly need to find a way to add more jobs in this country, and I don't think denying education to people who want it is a logical way to help things.

Call it Crazy says

You definitely need one.... Once again, you've shown yourself to be the BIGGEST idiot on Patnet!!

Congratulations!!!

Would you care to explain why you think the basic Economic law of supply and demand is wrong? I'm sure everyone is very interested to hear this pearl of wisdom.

Call it Crazy says

The situation with college costs has NOTHING to do with supply, which you claimed over and over above.... I showed that...

But, keep on going and making yourself out to be an even BIGGER idiot... I'll just continue to slap you down...

You didn't show anything of the sort. But, regardless, please explain why prices are rising if demand isn't greater than supply. This is potential Nobel prize winning work here. I'm waiting with bated breath.

tatupu70 says

But, regardless, please explain why prices are rising if demand isn't greater than supply.

Demand is only high for certain colleges, the ones perceived as "good schools". Prices aren't rising, or barely rising for many other schools. The demand is so low they are going out of business. Why is that hard to understand for you? Why do any products that are pretty much the same have great cost disparities? Why would people buy pet rocks? Marketing and perception. Bill of goods sold and you bought it.

Call it Crazy says

It's been noted multiple times in this thread above

Yes, and I've showed you that you're incorrect. You can note all you want, but it helps when the note is actually correct.

bob2356 says

Demand is only high for certain colleges, the ones perceived as "good schools". Prices aren't rising, or barely rising for many other schools. The demand is so low they are going out of business. Why is that hard to understand for you? Why do any products that are pretty much the same have great cost disparities? Why would people buy pet rocks? Marketing and perception. Bill of goods sold and you bought it.

I think there is some truth to that---it's similar to housing in that respect. Everyone wants to live in the same "good" cities/neighborhoods. I disagree that the vast majority of colleges haven't had tuition increases that far outpace inflation, but probably not worth the time it takes to research it.

So, would you be for a government program designed to help low income students attend community colleges and low cost colleges?

And I'm not sure why you keep saying a bought a bill of goods. I'm not telling people to go to overpriced private Universities. I went to the state school and my kids will be going to a state school.

Call it Crazy says

So, you're planning on spending roughly $25K a year to have each one go to a state school?

I doubt it. I'm assuming there will be choices available at less than that. Especially if either doesn't want to study engineering.

Oh--did you forget there most states have several state schools to choose from?

Call it Crazy says

Such as? What's the average cost that you'll pay at a state school?

I don't know-why don't you look it up.

Call it Crazy says

I know nothing about the schools near Chicago. Since you're the EXPERT on college education, you should have that information at your fingertips.

Well, state schools would be all of Illinois, not just near Chicago. Do you always treat people who you think are experts in this way? I would expect a bit more respect.

But, alas, I haven't memorized tuition costs at all Illinois state schools. Especially since I just moved here 6 months ago.

Call it Crazy says

Sorry that I asked such a difficult question of an "expert".... You seemed to have all the answers further up in the thread... Apparently you're NOT the expert economist and college guru that you think you are...

Does an expert Economist know the cost of every college in the country?