patrick.net

If we had a representative government, we wouldn't be in this conflict, or have started it. This was began by the CIA who engineered a coup, then the Russian side of Ukraine couldn't handle the new nazi government that illegally seized power, so they turned to Russia for help. Russia came to their rescue, they voted to join Russia, and then the nazis invaded, a jetliner was downed under extremely suspicious circumstances, and the USA shows up to openly condemn Putin for opposing tyranny, and declares tha it will kill the Russian economy in retaliation.
Makes me proud to be an American...

How much did the CIA pay Yanukovych to shoot his own people?

Do you think Obama would be president today if he ordered ferguson protesters to be shot?

Quigley says

This was began by the CIA who engineered a coup

a tiny segment of the government, which you've blown way out of proportion. not unlike the communist and nazi parties of america. why do you hate political freedom?

Quigley says

then the Russian side of Ukraine couldn't handle the new nazi government that illegally seized power

they are all ukrainians, as of 1920's...
there is no 'russian' side...

Quigley says

then the Russian side of Ukraine

actually, russia is not involved at all. didn't you hear??

Quigley says

Russia came to their rescue,

i'll grant you this part. smart of ukraine to put the skinhead segment of the population front and center...they are vicious and will fight well, and they will have their numbers paired down by russian ( oh i mean rebel ) artillery.

Sounds like a win/win for Poroshenko..

Quigley says

and then the nazis invaded

kinda like texas voting to secede...illegal bullshit.
but hey, that never stopped the bluenecks...

Quigley says

they voted to join Russia,

nothing suspicious about this. all damning evidence points to rebels shooting russian provided antiaircraft missiles at it.

Quigley says

a jetliner was downed under extremely suspicious circumstances,

Don't forget the other 98% of the world showing up too...

Quigley says

and the USA shows up to openly condemn Putin for opposing tyranny,

SoftShell says

If you are justifying russian reoccupation of novorussiya because some people don't think it's legit after 94 years and counting....well that brings into play just about every piece of real estate on the planet...

Not reoccupation, correcting a tyrannical land transfer. There was no "reoccupation" because Russia didn't "Occupy" the Crimea anymore than the US "occupies" Texas or California.

As for Donbass, Putin has stated he prefers it to be part of a federal Ukraine that respects the vote, and where Lvov SS collaborators don't have a shit fit and overthrow the government with US help everytime they don't get what they want (which will be often, given the larger population in the east).

SoftShell says

How much did the CIA pay Yanukovych to shoot his own people?

Yankovytch's police were shot at by ultranat/nazi elements within the protesters. Then, snipers of unknown origin - and Yats/Porky don't seem very interested in investigating this mystery - shot protesters on both sides, just like in another US backed coup in 2004.

There's a reason you have seen the "Victims" of the police being paraded around on TV, it's because they are covered in tattoos, and not of flowers and butterflys.

In a Democracy, you have to put up with governments you don't like until the next elections. The Western-Ukrainians can't win an election without US interference. Yankuvytch won the last real election fair and square and certified by international observers.

Even more, Yankuvytch promised to hold early elections just a few weeks after he was ousted.

Duly elected Yankovytch's removal was a coup, and the people who voted for him have every right to oppose the coup regime. As for successive elections, they were done by replacing the Constitution, intimidating the opposition by beatings, and "Lustrations" - banning the opposition from government.

Just google it. There are countless incidents of elected officials being beaten by crowds of ultranats.

bad choice of word by me. not 'reoccupy', but 'reclaim'
as for 'correcting a tyrannical land transfer' that can be applied to most territorial changes....after how many years does a transfer of land become 'valid'?...who gets to make that decision???

I don't see any tyranny in russia 'granting' the territory to Ukraine...it wasn't back then, but people today who don't agree will call it tyranny...
again, this approach can be applied to most countries today.

It would be an everlasting world war....you could have 10 different armies fighting over the same territory, each with a different claim to the land based on some point in history.

Bottom line: possession is all that really matters.

thunderlips11 says

SoftShell says

If you are justifying russian reoccupation of novorussiya because some people don't think it's legit after 94 years and counting....well that brings into play just about every piece of real estate on the planet...

Not reoccupation, correcting a tyrannical land transfer.

So where did you get this information?
The BBC report does not coincide with yours at all...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26868119

He identified Maj Dmytro Sadovnyk as commander of a unit suspected of shooting dead at least 17 protesters.

"From the side of the the Zhovtnevy Palace, a special squad from the riot Berkut police, wearing yellow armbands, opened fire at the protesters. Much of this fire was targeted. We are carrying out ballistics tests on the weapons," Mr Avakov said.

thunderlips11 says

Yankovytch's police were shot at by ultranat/nazi elements within the protesters. Then, snipers of unknown origin - and Yats/Porky don't seem very interested in investigating this mystery - shot protesters on both sides, just like in another US backed coup in 2004.

"Bottom line: possession is all that really matters."

If that's true, then why should we interfere with possession or any transfer of possession? Why not let Kim Jong Un possess the Crimea? Who gives a shot what the people there want. Why should they get the government they want when Americans don't even get that?
Have I made your point, Softshell?

No. You've missed it completely.
my point is that it is foolish to use 'correcting a 90 year old tyrannical land transfer' as an excuse to invade another sovereign country as that same claim can be made for just about any country on earth, be it by 'land transfer', 'by force', or whatever...

Now, taking action against a country invading another one is a different subject matter and is what you are referring to below.

Quigley says

"Bottom line: possession is all that really matters."

If that's true, then why should we interfere with possession or any transfer of possession? Why not let Kim Jong Un possess the Crimea? Who gives a shot what the people there want. Why should they get the government they want when Americans don't even get that?

Have I made your point, Softshell?

this can be argued ad nauseam either way. it all boils down to which source of information you believe..

thunderlips11 says

Yankovytch's police were shot at by ultranat/nazi elements within the protesters. Then, snipers of unknown origin - and Yats/Porky don't seem very interested in investigating this mystery - shot protesters on both sides, just like in another US backed coup in 2004.

SoftShell says

this can be argued ad nauseam either way. it all boils down to which source of information you believe..

Who cares who is right or wrong? Wars are never about right or wrong, it always turns into millions of innocent people dying for the causes of the wealthy aristocracy.

When I was young, nobody wanted wars, nobody liked wars except for governments. Today, I see way too many with very adolescent view of bloody conflicts, they see it as a video game, they don't understand the misery these things cause to human race at the end.

Merry Christmas from the Donbas.

Stevie Wonder, as sung by a Siberian "Polite Green Man" Volunteer.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/qfwo7JHvLMM

And the causes of the wealthy aristocracy are either right or wrong.
you are employing circular logic.

FortWayne says

Who cares who is right or wrong? Wars are never about right or wrong, it always turns into millions of innocent people dying for the causes of the wealthy aristocracy.

They better be prepared to wait a long, long time.

bgamall4 says

SoftShell says

if they were to use any kind of nukes in ukraine, they'd get their Swift badge revoked faster than dan can post naked dude pix..

They are setting an alternative system to swift, and they can wait.

UnionPay is rolling out, the SWIFT alternative is being placed, and there's going to be yet another system introduced for the Shanghai Cooperation Organization next year (China, SE Asia, Central Asia, Russia and I believe, New Zealand).

No, they are never right. Ends justifying the means are nazi and modern politics philosophy, none of that is right. sacrificing poor for political plots of entrenched aristocracy is not human.

SoftShell says

And the causes of the wealthy aristocracy are either right or wrong.

you are employing circular logic.

FortWayne says

Who cares who is right or wrong? Wars are never about right or wrong, it always turns into millions of innocent people dying for the causes of the wealthy aristocracy.