patrick.net

libero says

Now Ukraine and Belarus for example are specifically not in NATO because they are considered more or less part of the Russian sphere of influence. They have large Russian minorities because they have been part of the Russian Empire for centuries. Their languages are closely related.

The Ukrainians want to be part of NATO. The only reason why they don't is because of Russian objections (which I would expect to be ignored going forward). Why do you think the Ukraine has military exercise with NATO? I would expect to see Ukraine in NATO at some point. Besides that, if Russia did try invading the rest of Ukraine, I would expect other countries, some of the NATO countries to help Ukraine, so we would get sucked into ti eventually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
Relations between Ukraine and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1995. Ukraine is as of January 2008 a candidate to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP).[1][2] On December 3, 2008 NATO decided it will work out an Annual National Programme of providing assistance to Ukraine to implement reforms required to accede the alliance without referring to MAP.

Yanukovich fled Ukraine amid the Euromaidan uprising in February 2014. As a result of this revolution, an interim government came to power in Kiev with more favorable views on Ukraine–NATO relations. NATO officials vowed support for Ukraine and worked to downplay tensions between the bloc and Russia, which refused to recognize the impeachment of Yanukovich and formation of a new government in Kiev.[56] Anders Fogh Rasmussen reaffirmed NATO membership is still an option for Ukraine.

Since Ukraine isn't likely to have another pro-Russian president any time soon, partially due to a big chunk of Russian voters no longer being in the country, it just seems more likely.

First of all, Germany never had a true global empire, like the British, French, and the USA, to some extent. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in the 1920s. He'd laid out his Imperial plans, to expand Germany into eastern Europe, long in advance of actually attempting it in the mid-30s.

Putin, on the other hand, has a very simple agenda ... restore Russia to its original power, during the height of the Soviet Empire. Thus, his friends, like Nazarbayev, the dictator of Kazakhstan, and Karimov, the dictator of Uzbekistan, are already in the fold. Central Asia and Putin are already into cahoots. The Ukraine thing, however, didn't work as originally expected so he's flexing his muscles in the region.

What does the history of Austria have to do with this thread. Austria was one of the earliest parts of the first German Empire in the middle ages and the language is German. Are you saying Austria is like Crimea?

libero says

What does the history of Austria have to do with this thread

This thread is about ... if we don't stop Putin now, next he'll invade Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic plus Slovakia), Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria, ala re-play of WWII, but replace Hitler with Putin.

Sorry, but that ain't on Vlady's agenda. He wants the Soviet Union back and he'll get it, because for the most part, it never really ended. Many current heads of state of ex-SSR republics were either former communist party members, ex-Red Army types, or ex-KGB. Basically, the current setup is a privatized version of the former USSR but without a party ideologue but with a lot of oligarchs, reporting to one Czar (or Shogun).

What happened with Yuko's oil? The rich guy didn't do as he was told. Putin sent him up the river. That's old Soviet stuff, just re-defined for a new generation.

Rin says

He wants the Soviet Union back and he'll get it, because for the most part

Not all of it. I think the Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and the rest of the Ukraine will fight back, and get help doing it. I think those 4 countries they hate Russians as much as Poles do.

SoftShell says

You are lost and confused...

Is it not better to be thrown in jail than to just 'turn up missing'??

lostand confused says

America cannot talk about freedom to any country in the world-because we throw way more people in jail than any of them.

You are so far gone, that your bloodlust blinds you to anything but your position

zzyzzx says

Not all of it. I think the Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and the rest of the Ukraine will fight back

I don't think he cares, so much for the first three nations. The Crimea region gives him a year long port, for his petrol ventures and so forth.

Realize, this is a privatized version of the USSR. They don't need *to save* the Estonians from capitalism anymore.

In a more privatized SSR, it's about capital controls and commercial links. Kazakhstan, right now, is an oil rich nation. Putin and Naz', are best of political friends. There isn't a single force in Kazakhstan, who'll challenge Nazarbayev, outside of a few token picketers.

If you use the same simile, the nations of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, are basically non-strategic, former colonies on the Baltic. From the US's p.o.v., it's like wanting the Philippines back, just because we'd won the Spanish-American war.

zzyzzx says

Doesn't sound like Russia has a long history in the Crimea.

What do you consider long. The ottomons had a long rule and as they declined Russia grabbed it from them close to 300 years ago. Khrushchev "gifted it to the Ukranians a few decades ago-when they were still part of the Soviet Union. So that would be like moving the border of FL to include the rest of the SE coast line. When it split up, Russians were left there. The Tartars had nothing to do with Ukraine-but were there from the ottoman days. Ukraine has no history there-except the recent gift.

lostand confused says

What do you consider long.

I believe that the Russian majority in Crimea only goes back to after WW2. That's not very long. And yes I do think Russia is responsible for undoing everything that Stalin did.

zzyzzx says

I believe that the Russian majority in Crimea only goes back to after WW2. That's not very long. And yes I do think Russia is responsible for undoing everything that Stalin did.

I would have to dig deeper to get the population stats. But Crimea has been part of Russia for over three centuries and the Tartars are people left over from the Ottoman days-Ukraine has nothing to do with either side. Today's Russia is not responsible for what Stalin did-that is like saying every white is responsible for the actions of the slave owners and the cruelties to blacks and so are responsible for undoing all the wrongs. The present is what matters.

The Tartars have been there for a very long time yes-but if anything then Turkey would have a claim -not Ukraine.

Are you guys missing the point?

Is it up to the US and NATO allies (basically the UK & Netherlands), to sort out the issues with the former Soviet Union?

For one, I don't think so. Western Europe and the Americas come first. And then afterwards, we can worry about eastern Europe.

I doubt this if the targets were the baltic states...
Russia walks through those in a day or two....
what is NATO's move? What move is there without the risk of getting nuked?

libero says

If Ukraine and Georgia were they would be protected from such aggression because any military operation on their territory would trigger automatic military response from all 28 member countries.

No.
This thread is about if we don't stop putin now then the reconstitution of the Soviet Union will happen, along with the loss of all the gains achieved as a result of it's dismantling under Reagan.

Rin says

libero says

What does the history of Austria have to do with this thread

This thread is about ... if we don't stop Putin now, next he'll invade Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic plus Slovakia), Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria, ala re-play of WWII, but replace Hitler with Putin.

What bloodlust?
I recommended a major financial attack on Russia and the ruble.
You interpret that as war with all the blood and guts...
Better for you to lay off the Stallone flicks for awhile...

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

You are lost and confused...

Is it not better to be thrown in jail than to just 'turn up missing'??

lostand confused says

America cannot talk about freedom to any country in the world-because we throw way more people in jail than any of them.

You are so far gone, that your bloodlust blinds you to anything but your position

SoftShell says

What bloodlust?

I recommended a major financial attack on Russia and the ruble.

You interpret that as war with all the blood and guts...

Better for you to lay off the Stallone flicks for awhile...

Well according to you bloodlust means someone taking about sex. of course you start a thread calling this a redux of Hitler /Nevin .

You keep twerking back to this off-topic prison theme.
You sound like a bitter old ex-con whose forfeited a good portion of his years behind bars...

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

You are lost and confused...

Is it not better to be thrown in jail than to just 'turn up missing'??

lostand confused says

America cannot talk about freedom to any country in the world-because we throw way more people in jail than any of them.

You are so far gone, that your bloodlust blinds you to anything but your position

SoftShell says

You keep twerking back to this off-topic prison theme.

You sound like a bitter old ex-con whose forfeited a good portion of his years behind bars...

You are so far gone and lost deep in the republican talking points that you do not know what freedom means-sad.

The first step back to normalcy is to stop 'liking' your own posts...

Tim Aurora says

SoftShell says

Maybe we should gauge our spelling skills first....

Ad hominem. The first thing the right wingers do is to get in Personal attacks. "Spelling", is that all u want to argue

You are so far gone in this 'prison' theme you've forgotten how Freedom is achieved and preserved.

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

You keep twerking back to this off-topic prison theme.

You sound like a bitter old ex-con whose forfeited a good portion of his years behind bars...

You are so far gone and lost deep in the republican talking points that you do not know what freedom means-sad.

All you talk about is 'prison' and 'freedom'...
Where'd you serve your time??

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

You keep twerking back to this off-topic prison theme.

You sound like a bitter old ex-con whose forfeited a good portion of his years behind bars...

You are so far gone and lost deep in the republican talking points that you do not know what freedom means-sad.

SoftShell says

You are so far gone in this 'prison' theme you've forgotten how Freedom is achieved and preserved.

What a sad pathetic example of a human-unless you make your living with the prison industrial complex or the military industrial complex. Then everything you post makes perfect sense. Your livelihood is based on destroying people's lives and families and coating it under "freedom".

What a naive childish mind you have, thinking the world is full of easter bunnies and santa clauses who want nothing other than to shower you with Rights and a glorious constitution.

Oh look! Someone posted about the similarities of current day events, and events leading up to WWII....BADBADBADBAD!!!!

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

You are so far gone in this 'prison' theme you've forgotten how Freedom is achieved and preserved.

What a sad pathetic example of a human-unless you make your living with the prison industrial complex or the military industrial complex. Then everything you post makes perfect sense. Your livelihood is based on destroying people's lives and families and coating it under "freedom".

So you are saying it's ok to let the baltics join NATO, but come crunch time tell them to go fuck off....they ain't worth it...

What does that tell the other members of NATO about your commitment to come save their collective asses??

Rin says

Are you guys missing the point?

Is it up to the US and NATO allies (basically the UK & Netherlands), to sort out the issues with the former Soviet Union?

For one, I don't think so. Western Europe and the Americas come first. And then afterwards, we can worry about eastern Europe.

SoftShell says

What a naive childish mind you have, thinking the world is full of easter bunnies and santa clauses who want nothing other than to shower you with Rights and a glorious constitution.

Alright then so you make your money by destroying lives and need people to be dumb and compliant and never ask questions.

I ask a logical question-how can we be the country that arrests the most people in the whole world and yet go around the world preaching about freedom. I thought it flew right over your head, but I now wonder if this is your livelihood and so you refuse to see the truth-because you would lose your pension. But hey -I guess you need a bogeyman to keep the charade going and any body who questions the status quo must be terrifying to you. No matter, keep going on. You thrive in hypocrisy-it is your way.

And I answered as I did because you are talking apples and oranges.

People lose their freedom through the 'arrest' process due to performing illegal activities.

Countries lose their freedom through the militaristic acts of tyrants.

Your question is an intentional diversion from the thread topic. Very troll-like, I might add....

lostand confused says

I ask a logical question-how can we be the country that arrests the most people in the whole world and yet go around the world preaching about freedom.

You are kinda right.
I program the phones that deliver the social media that take people off into an electronic wonderland never to be seen or heard from in the flesh again...

lostand confused says

Alright then so you make your money by destroying lives and need people to be dumb and compliant and never ask questions.

I guess I must be freaking myself out then, as I am the one questioning the status quo of the Russia/Crimia situation.

lostand confused says

But hey -I guess you need a bogeyman to keep the charade going and any body who questions the status quo must be terrifying to you.

SoftShell says

along with the loss of all the gains achieved as a result of it's dismantling under Reagan.

Sorry, the berlin wall came down under Bush I. History isn't your strong point I guess

au contraire..
The wall did indeed fall under bush, but the dismantling of the Soviet Empire occurred under Reagan.

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

along with the loss of all the gains achieved as a result of it's dismantling under Reagan.

Sorry, the berlin wall came down under Bush I. History isn't your strong point I guess

SoftShell says

And I answered as I did because you are talking apples and oranges.

People lose their freedom through the 'arrest' process due to performing illegal activities.

Countries lose their freedom through the militaristic acts of tyrants.

Your question is an intentional diversion from the thread topic. Very troll-like, I might add....

Nope. Your mind is so closed that you can't see the obvious. You get all worked up about Crimea-which was a part of Russia for 300 + years and is majority Russian and you compare that to hitler. Yet our country makes up laws against personal freedom-drugs and throws millions and millions in jail. States legalize marijuana and republicans push Obama to enforce federal laws and arrest all those people in those states that have legalized marijuana-state rights be damned. yeah the party of small govt.

Then when I question that you assume I must have been in jail. Then you talk about tyrants and foreign countries. Step outside and see how illogical your position is. We can arrest people for their personal choices-even when it harms no one-but by golly Putin does something -oh he is more evil than Hitler.

Oh you think tyrants just toss people in jail for no reason. In some countries criticizing the dictator is a crime or not crying enough or not going to communal grieving sessions and crying in public is a crime punishable by labor camps. By your argument they deserved it, because the act they commited was illegal.Yet more people are thrown in jail here than in any nation on earth.

me-I refuse to believe that Americans are the worst, most criminal people on the earth. I believe the govt has run amok and made a wide variety of victimless crimes as crimes and it time to take a look a serious look at ourselves and get OUR FREEDOM back.

But your kind will fight tooth and nail-because for many that is their livelihood. if drugs were made legal, the DEA would be disbanded and a huge chunk of police, jails, lawyers, courts, judges would be out of a job with no alternative career. They have everything to lose and actually want the status quo.

if they could turn the public's attention on Putin or some other issue-they can continue heir charade and keep lying that freedom is what they support-while they arrest and destroy even more folks and families.

SoftShell says

au contraire..

The wall did indeed fall under bush, but the dismantling of the Soviet Empire occurred under Reagan.

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

along with the loss of all the gains achieved as a result of it's dismantling under Reagan.

Sorry, the berlin wall came down under Bush I. History isn't your strong point I guess

au contraire times 2. protests started in summer 1988. the first countries pulled away in the summer of 1989 and dissolution was complete in december 1991. Reagan is highly overrated as the architect of the fall of the soviet union. It would have happened if Jimmy Carter had 2 more terms.

SoftShell says

What does that tell the other members of NATO about your commitment to come save their collective asses??

I don't know how to say this ... but culturally speaking, America is only close to Mother England.

And thus, it's really about how the US deals with its relation, to its mother nation, whether or not, one's heritage is 1/16th British or 1/2.

As much as I'd wished things were different, this is how things come down.

From the current pov, that means that western Europe comes first, and others, last.

Therefore, since the US's relation to eastern Europe is distant, I understand this gap.

Well...you just want the thread topic to be about our current drug laws and how they are enforced, instead of bloodless war coupled with illegal annexation.
And you want to weave the two together comparing them from a moral standpoint.
And that's all nice and dandy.
But it looks and smells like a thread diversion...

Your comments are reasonable and on topic when you talk about Russia/Crimia history, but invariably go off into a rant against current US drug law. I don't know what you are bitching about, Obama/Holder are not enforcing most of the drug laws on the books...it's a free ride for you.

As far as the US having the largest prison population in the world, laws are laws, don't break them and you won't go to prison...if you don't like the law, work to have it changed, or go live somewhere where the laws are more to your liking..

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

And I answered as I did because you are talking apples and oranges.

People lose their freedom through the 'arrest' process due to performing illegal activities.

Countries lose their freedom through the militaristic acts of tyrants.

Your question is an intentional diversion from the thread topic. Very troll-like, I might add....

Nope. Your mind is so closed that you can't see the obvious. You get all worked up about Crimea-which was a part of Russia for 300 + years and is majority Russian and you compare that to hitler. Yet our country makes up laws against personal freedom-drugs and throws millions and millions in jail. States legalize marijuana and republicans push Obama to enforce federal laws and arrest all those people in those states that have legalized marijuana-state rights be damned. yeah the party of small govt.

SoftShell says

As far as the US having the largest prison population in the world, laws are laws, don't break them and you won't go to prison

Music to the most brutal dictator's ears. Since the thread title is Hitler-I would dare say , he felt the same.

I don't know on what planet you guys live, but from where I sit it looks like NATO all but captured most of a previously Russian-allied Ukraine.

It's a huge set back for Russia - unless they invade now the rest of Ukraine.

Which means either way it's a setback.

Well, I'm not "all worked up" about Crimea.
I'm point out patterns that existed pre-WWII.

German is Austria's official language.
Russian is Crimia's dominant language

Austria and Germany have been tied at the hip off and on for the past 5 centuries.
Same goes for Russia and Crimea.

Germany's initial move leading to WWII was to occupy and illegally 'annex' Austria against their wishes.
Russia is in the process of illegally 'annexing' Crimea, a part of the sovereign country of Ukraine, against Ukraine's wishes.

Me thinks you are the one worked up by the obvious similarities I've pointed out.
lostand confused says

Nope. Your mind is so closed that you can't see the obvious. You get all worked up about Crimea-which was a part of Russia for 300 + years and is majority Russian and you compare that to hitler.

Oh, and lets not forget this similarity:
Neville appeased Hitler.
Obama, with the wrist slap sanctions, has now appeased Putin.

lostand confused says

You get all worked up about CrimeaSudetenland-which was a part of Russia settled by Germans for 300 500 + years and is majority Russian German and you compare that to hitler.

FIFY

The process of dismantling the soviet union started when we outspent them on military during the 80's....The walls coming down were the final act of the dismantling process.

But there were more immediate causes for the collapse. In the middle 1980's about seventy percent of the industrial output of the Soviet Union was going to the military. Oleg Gordievsky, a KGB official who defected to Britain, asserted that at least one third of the total output was going to the military. British intelligence could not believe such a high figure but later Western intelligence sources estimated that it was at least fifty percent. One can only imagine what a severe shortages of industrial goods there were for the rest of the economy.

In the U.S. the Reagan Administration increased the budget for the military and presented the possibility that it would implement a Star Wars antiballistic missile system. To maintain a parity with the U.S. under those developments would have required an even larger share of industrial ouput going to the military. The planners and decision-makers had to face the fact that it was economically impossible for the Soviet Union to increase the share of its output going to the military. The Soviet authorities then ended the arms race and called off the Cold War. When the justification of an external threat was removed there was no reason for the Russian public to toleratel the totalitarian regime and the political system fell apart.

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/sovietcollapse.htm

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

au contraire..

The wall did indeed fall under bush, but the dismantling of the Soviet Empire occurred under Reagan.

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

along with the loss of all the gains achieved as a result of it's dismantling under Reagan.

Sorry, the berlin wall came down under Bush I. History isn't your strong point I guess

au contraire times 2.

SoftShell says

Same goes for Russia and Crimea.

Only since Stalin moved lots of Russians there after WW2.