patrick.net

egads101 says

errc says

What makes you so sure that I will get sick?

Do you intend to get sick? Because with that mindset, its no wonder,,,,

great philosophy. If people get sick, it is because they are inferior and have a weak mindset that makes them get sick.

you are a fucking idiot.

Not at all. People wind up demanding that healthy young people like me, be forced by the gov to fork over 1/6th of my income to private corporations, because they've been brainwashed to believe that they need drugs and unnecessary and harmful procedures performed by people in healthcare

My mindset is to work hard to avoid the doctor. To be healthful.

Not to sit around worrying about made up diseases, planted in the minds of the tv watchers, so that they will demand their drugs, and think they are cures or treatments.

I invested countless hours of research, learning what it means to be healthful. Once you unlearn all the government misinformation about nutrition, its simple to stay healthy for the most part.

If I were ever to need the services of a healthcare professional, I should be able to do commerce with them.

I shouldn't be forced to fork over 500$ per month to privately owned corporations that go to great lengths to drug people, and piss their money away on unnecessary frivolties

errc says

What makes you so sure that I will get sick?

Do you intend to get sick? Because with that mindset, its no wonder,,,,

Exactly right.

A college classmate of mine chose to get stage-IV colon cancer, even though she had kids.

I'm still so pissed at her that I haven't spoken to her since she died.

Bitch!

Why do liberals choose to do these things? To get free money from insurance companies?

errc says

I wasn't asking how to go bankrupt. I've filed chapter 7 once before myself, so I could probably teach you a trick or two

Did you seriously just conflate getting sick, with dying?

Everyone dies eventually. You don't have to get sick in order to die. Plenty of people go their entire life without ever being sick, or bothering with a doctor. And then they eventually die, healthy and happy

First of all, I wouldn't get myself into a situation where I even remotely had to consider bankruptcy. I live cheap, save up for rainy days, and make a decent income. Even when I made $8 an hr I saved up a lot of money. So maybe I could teach you a thing or two... or three...

As far as counting on not getting sick, might as well take your money to Vegas and bet it all on black. Sorry, but that is not sound advice. I consider myself a healthy person. I eat decently, I run 5 miles a day, and I generally take good care of myself. That said, I have broken an arm, and been to the hospital for a number of minor issues. You would not believe how much even a minor medical problem or accident can cost these days. We're talking 10's of thousands of dollars, if not more. I personally know of at least 2 people who went bankrupt because they didn't have any health insurance and all it took was one trip to the hospital and that was it.

So your argument holds no water. Its a huge gamble, and I hope that not many others follow such an example.

edvard2 says

You would not believe how much even a minor medical problem or accident can cost these days.

That is because the prices have been ridiculously inflated, in large part due to insurance companies contracting with hospitals to overcharge out-of-network patients (including the uninsured). The actual cost is approximately the typical insurance co-payment, while the premium "protects" you against the overcharge the insurer and hospital agreed upon. It's a protection racket, and ought to be prosecuted under RICO. Instead, it's now mandatory.

Try comparing a retail hospital bill to the official value of the service codes on the bill, according to federal law. Try comparing to the cost in a place like Mexico, where medical education is subsidized and there is a public floor to deal with accidents etc. Try comparing to any other country. And that's without even considering the perverse incentives of the fee-for-service model. American for-profit insurance rackets are part of the problem, while Obamacare mandates them as the solution.

errc says

Once you unlearn all the government misinformation about nutrition, its simple to stay healthy for the most part.

What about that other part?

curious2 says

It's a protection racket, and ought to be prosecuted under RICO. Instead, it's now mandatory.

Maybe that was the Dem's plan all along. Really piss us off with insurance companies so that we will beg for single-payer.

HydroCabron says

errc says

What makes you so sure that I will get sick?

Do you intend to get sick? Because with that mindset, its no wonder,,,,

Exactly right.

A college classmate of mine chose to get stage-IV colon cancer, even though she had kids.

I'm still so pissed at her that I refuse to speak to her since she died.

Bitch!

Why do liberals choose to do these things? To get free money from insurance companies?

So if we can get every last person to send gobs of money off to health insurance companies, then that will cure someones colon cancer?

Are people getting sick and dying because I'm not paying the private corporations enough money?

What about ritualistic sacrifices? If we all throw our virgin daughters to the health insurance execs, will that make us healthier??

You fucking retards aren't half as smart as you'd like to think you are. You can blame all your shortcomings on the gop. You can project your hate for blacks and uber catholic hispanics, onto the white trash that vote gop. You can pull them dem levers all you want to make yourself feel better. Carry their water if that makes yourself feel better.

But for one second, think for yourself. How did you do gooders end up doing the work of the evil corporations y'all hated so much for so long. Why are you using the state to point the barrel of the gun at my head, lest I pay up all that I have to insurance companies. It makes no sense

rooemoore says

errc says

Once you unlearn all the government misinformation about nutrition, its simple to stay healthy for the most part.

What about that other part?

If someone happens to need the services of a healthcare professional, by all means, they should be able to utilize them.

rooemoore says

curious2 says

It's a protection racket, and ought to be prosecuted under RICO. Instead, it's now mandatory.

Maybe that was the Dem's plan all along. Really piss us off with insurance companies so that we will beg for single-payer.

Ha. Haha. Hahahahahahahahahahah

Now that's rich

I thought obama came on the scene as an advocate for single payer. And then as ppaca approached, he and nancy pelosi entertained the visits of big money private corps lobbyists, sold their souls, and we ended up with PPACA.

I know you're not so dishonest as to suggest that as the grand plan

errc says

I know you're not so dishonest as to suggest that as the grand plan

Obama has said many times he wanted the public option but he had to ditch it to get the Senate vote. You are right that there is a lot of big money fighting any change to health care. Think about why even the insurance lobby has fought against Obamacare. Why would they do that if it was so great for them. Maybe because they know it is how the move to single-payer begins. Keep your eye on the money.

Homeboy says

Instead of bitching, why don't you tell us all YOUR plan for healthcare reform, and how it would work? I assume you have devised a foolproof way of providing healthcare to everyone, where essential services are covered, but at the same price as healthcare that DOESN'T cover essential services, all without raising anyone's taxes.

So please, give us all the details of YOUR healthcare plan, and then WE can sit here and pick it apart.

- For starters, I'd allow any and all insurance companies sell any product in any state. Competition would help (but not solve) the rising cost of health care insurance. IIRC, this idea has worked w/ auto insurance in many states that have opened up the auto insurance industry to competition.

- Then I'd work on tort reform. I think the Democratic party is more in the pocket of these law lobbyists more than the Republican party, but I can't confirm, and would be willing to be corrected on this. This would definitely help bring insurance costs down.

- I'd try and reduce the overhead/redundancy of gov't layers of beaucracy that handle Medicare, Medicade and other aspects of the insurance industry.

- Then once the 'dead wood' has been removed, I'd offer an incentive plan to ferret out Medicare fraud and other types of fraud, double-billing, etc. I'd offer anyone a cut on any amount of fraud that they can successfully find and remove (1, 5, 10%)?? Once word gets out, this alone will make those that dispense heathcare think twice about cookin' the books and fuckin' the taxpayer. (I've seen it with my own eyes w/ my Dad's last years in a nursing home/hospice, so don't insult me and tell me that fraud doesn't exist.)

- Confirm if those signing up for 'free shit' is actually a citizen of the US. if they give us a bogus SS#, or can't prove who they are, no medicine for you. Sorry, you really don't belong here, and certainly don't deserver free medicine that we taxpayers who busted our asses to pay for this, because you are here illegally. We may not kick you out, but tough titties! No medicine for you. There are more legal American citizens, more elderly poor legal Americns, more destitute veterans that need the medicine more than your illegal-asses. Go back home. This means you, Aunti Zetuine and Uncle Omar; Obama's deadbeat relatives right here in good 'ol Massachusetts....

- Oh, I'd also close the borders really fuckin' tight to prevent illegals, like every other nation on this planet. Why is Mexico and other hypocritcal nations have a problem w/ us wanting to close our borders? We look to France, and Sweden (!) and many a liberal are ready to give 'em a hummer on how well they run their socialistic gov't. (PSST, BTW, France is running out of money.) But guess what skippy? They actually protect their fuckin' borders? Why can't we? WTF? This will help the insurance problem (among others) down the road.

THose are some of my ideas. I may have more later on, but this would be a start....

So have fun, and rip 'em to shreds....

errc says

So if we can get every last person to send gobs of money off to health insurance companies, then that will cure someones colon cancer?

Are people getting sick and dying because I'm not paying the private corporations enough money?

Ignoring the rest of your commentary it really boils down to something very, very simple: Insurance. What exactly do you think insurance is? Its something you pay into to "insure" that you don't wind up going fucking broke because you can't afford to pay for a $200,000 operation or maybe a Million+ for fighting a bout of cancer. You lost credibility the second you started talking about not getting sick as a "plan".

rooemoore says

errc says

I know you're not so dishonest as to suggest that as the grand plan

Obama has said many times he wanted the public option but he had to ditch it to get the Senate vote. You are right that there is a lot of big money fighting any change to health care. Think about why even the insurance lobby has fought against Obamacare. Why would they do that if it was so great for them. Maybe because they know it is how the move to single-payer begins. Keep your eye on the money.

Obama can say anything he wants. Sure, for the folks that support him its nice to say bullshit like he wants the public option. But actions speak louder than words, and he forced private health insurance on us all. No public option to speak of.

How on earth is ppaca, a move towards single payer??? Seems more like a move away from single payer, then towards it. I make no excuses for fascists like Obama

AverageBear says

- For starters, I'd allow any and all insurance companies sell any product in any state. Competition would help (but not solve) the rising cost of health care insurance. IIRC, this idea has worked w/ auto insurance in many states that have opened up the auto insurance industry to competition.

I've thought about this myself. The short answer is that the only way a public healthcare option would truly work is to make the WHOLE thing completely public... as in it serves much the same way as the military, judicial, medicare, and so on. Sure- the government then could pay for healthcare contractors, but the sole purpose of the government's involvement would be to "govern" the process. Of course that will never happen because people will start jumpin' up and down and yelling communism/socialism or whatnot. But what we're seeing right now with the ACA rollout so far is what you get when a lot of the control still resides with the healthcare companies themselves. That is never going to be near as efficient nor as easily manageable.

edvard2 says

errc says

So if we can get every last person to send gobs of money off to health insurance companies, then that will cure someones colon cancer?

Are people getting sick and dying because I'm not paying the private corporations enough money?

Ignoring the rest of your commentary it really boils down to something very, very simple: Insurance. What exactly do you think insurance is? Its something you pay into to "insure" that you don't wind up going fucking broke because you can't afford to pay for a $200,000 operation or maybe a Million+ for fighting a bout of cancer. You lost credibility the second you started talking about not getting sick as a "plan".

Exactly what credibility do you imagine you have, to play arbiter over my credibility?

There's no better plan then the plan not to get sick. You feel your plan, to get sick, serves you better??

You don't bother to ask why you think there's some million dollar medical procedure. You just attempt to defend your statist idols. The dems are forcing it on us, so in your unquestioning eyes, it just has to be good.

Youc the same person that claims to eat healthy. You likely don't understand the first thing of what eating healthy looks like. And run five miles a day? That sounds like the activity of someone that is planning on needing knee replacements and other health care services,,,,you probably run with sneakers on. And then you'll flail your arms in frustration and wonderment as to how could this possibly have happened to me.

Just because you can't connect the dots, just because you enjoy being misinformed, don't assume everyone else is like you.

errc says

Exactly what credibility do you imagine you have, to play arbiter over my
credibility?

Amazing that the Progs and Libs think they have ANY credibility as the Obamacare fiasco unfolds before our eyes. The total incompetence along with the lying will be studied for a generation. I think most Libs are still in the denial phase of their grief process.

Virtually everything the Libs and Obama promised us to try and sell us this program turns out to be not true.

There is no way they would have passed Obamacare (let alone single payer), even in 2010 when they had their historic majorities if they were honest in saying that they are basically expanding the welfare state at the expense of the middle and uppler classes who will face higher premiums, higher deductables and less doctor choices to insure the 15% of the US population who didn't have health insurance.

Now that Obamacare is melting down, the Libs are stuck with nothing more than demanding Republicans to put forth a plan to fix their mess.

No thanks. The Libs made their bed.....

AverageBear says

For starters, I'd allow any and all insurance companies sell any product in any
state. Competition would help (but not solve) the rising cost of health care
insurance. IIRC, this idea has worked w/ auto insurance in many states that have
opened up the auto insurance industry to competition.

This would do nothing to control costs. Any company is already allowed to sell their products in any state. All it would do is reduce services...

AverageBear says

- For starters, I'd allow any and all insurance companies sell any product in any state. Competition would help (but not solve) the rising cost of health care insurance.

Aside from that being ineffective, http://chir.georgetown.edu/pdfs/Selling%20Health%20Insurance%20-%20fnl.pdf how would it solve the problem of people being denied insurance due to pre-existing conditions? Analysts have said your idea would make the problem WORSE, since insurance companies would cherry-pick the healthy people in other states, and refuse to insure people in their own states with medical conditions.

AverageBear says

- Then I'd work on tort reform. I think the Democratic party is more in the pocket of these law lobbyists more than the Republican party, but I can't confirm, and would be willing to be corrected on this. This would definitely help bring insurance costs down.

Not really. Factcheck.org says it would only save one half of one percent of healthcare costs. Next...

AverageBear says

- I'd try and reduce the overhead/redundancy of gov't layers of beaucracy that handle Medicare, Medicade and other aspects of the insurance industry.

- Then once the 'dead wood' has been removed, I'd offer an incentive plan to ferret out Medicare fraud and other types of fraud, double-billing, etc. I'd offer anyone a cut on any amount of fraud that they can successfully find and remove (1, 5, 10%)?? Once word gets out, this alone will make those that dispense heathcare think twice about cookin' the books and fuckin' the taxpayer. (I've seen it with my own eyes w/ my Dad's last years in a nursing home/hospice, so don't insult me and tell me that fraud doesn't exist.)

And how would that help people with pre-existing conditions buy insurance on the open market?

AverageBear says

- Confirm if those signing up for 'free shit' is actually a citizen of the US. if they give us a bogus SS#, or can't prove who they are, no medicine for you.

ACA already does that. You will notice on the application that it asks if you are a U.S. Citizen. Aside from that, are you suggesting that ERs refuse to treat people if they can't document their citizenship? In other words, let them die in the street? That's some cold-blooded shit, man.

AverageBear says

- Oh, I'd also close the borders really fuckin' tight to prevent illegals, like every other nation on this planet. Why is Mexico and other hypocritcal nations have a problem w/ us wanting to close our borders?

How would that provide insurance for people with pre-existing conditions?

errc says

Youc the same person that claims to eat healthy. You likely don't understand the first thing of what eating healthy looks like. And run five miles a day? That sounds like the activity of someone that is planning on needing knee replacements and other health care services,,,,you probably run with sneakers on. And then you'll flail your arms in frustration and wonderment as to how could this possibly have happened to me.

Oh Christ - another ridiculous post from bacon-boy. Yeah, sit on your ass all day and eat fatty, salty meat. That's the key to health. If you could only hear yourself...

It almost makes me WANT ACA repealed, just to see the look on your face when you develop diabetes and hypertension, then try to sign up for health insurance and get turned down.

errc says

Exactly what credibility do you imagine you have, to play arbiter over my credibility?

There's no better plan then the plan not to get sick. You feel your plan, to get sick, serves you better??

You don't bother to ask why you think there's some million dollar medical procedure. You just attempt to defend your statist idols. The dems are forcing it on us, so in your unquestioning eyes, it just has to be good.

I can't believe this conversation is ongoing with this even remotely being a debate. Your plan to " Not get sick" has nothing to do with the definition of a plan at all, being that you do not have any control over the condition of your health or the ability to assume that you will not get any number of the other millions of potentially serious diseases that afflict people of all ages, condition and health.

This has nothing to do with ACA. Its common sense. I do not advocate for anyone to go without health insurance. Doing so means you're literally one accident away from going bankrupt. Ever listen to the morning news? There's usually at least a half-dozen wrecks every single day. In many of those cases the people involved in them are going to the hospital and will have to undergo costly procedures. This could happen to any of us at any time. Its that simple.

Saying that "Not getting sick" is a plan is a total oxymoron.

socal2 says

Now that Obamacare is melting down, the Libs are stuck with nothing more than demanding Republicans to put forth a plan to fix their mess.

No thanks. The Libs made their bed.....

What will happen is that the kinks with the web site will be fixed, the loose ends will get tied up, and in a year or less people will have already moved onto other things and the GOP will find itself back to where it as: Being the party that is increasingly becoming a has-been and prone to losing elections.

What is it with the same people begging for fascism, forced participation in private "health" "insurance" by the same evil corporations that have failed us and screwed us for years, simultaneously wishing that healthy people get sick? To teach someone a lesson?

What the fuck kind of sick twisted shit is that?

And edvard, you simple simon motherfucker, how about you go on planning to get sick, and ill keep on planning on not getting sick, and time will prove me correct as absolute fact that the best plan of all, is to plan not to get sick. K?

Take your drugs like a good obedient little democrat and pray that one day ill get sick, and ill continue to live a healthy lifestyle and avoid the savages that comprise the sick industry.

Homegirl, why do you hate science?

errc says

And edvard, you simple simon motherfucker, how about you go on planning to get sick, and ill keep on planning on not getting sick, and time will prove me correct as absolute fact that the best plan of all, is to plan not to get sick. K?

Name calling makes your so-called" plan not anymore of a good idea than it was before. You can "say" that oh- well, I'll never get sick.... yessireee, that's my plan.

So what are you gunna' do if one day you wake up and lo and behold have a strange feeling and long story short, its cancer. Let me speak from experience from someone in my family who was as healthy as could be right up until he was in his 60's. As in he ran every day, was very careful of what he ate, and so on. He was the picture of health. One day he woke up not feeling well. A few weeks later he was diagnosed with Lymphoma. 4 years later the total costs of his treatments were over 1 Million dollars. He was insured and the treatments were paid for. Had he NOT been insured it would have bankrupted his family.

Your arguments against getting health insurance are mostly political and not having anything to do with common sense.

edvard2 says

Name calling makes your so-called" plan not anymore of a good idea than it was before. You can "say" that oh- well, I'll never get sick.... yessireee, that's my plan.

So what are you gunna' do if one day you wake up and lo and behold have a strange feeling and long story short, its cancer. Let me speak from experience from someone in my family who was as healthy as could be right up until he was in his 60's. As in he ran every day, was very careful of what he ate, and so on. He was the picture of health. One day he woke up not feeling well. A few weeks later he was diagnosed with Lymphoma. 4 years later the total costs of his treatments were over 1 Million dollars. He was insured and the treatments were paid for. Had he NOT been insured it would have bankrupted his family.

Your arguments against getting health insurance are mostly political and not having anything to do with common sense.

I think we're wasting our time. This guy thinks eating a pound of bacon for breakfast is healthy, and he is suffering from the delusion not only that he will never get sick, but that if anyone ever does get sick, it is their own fault. He's never going to listen to reason.

errc says

What is it with the same people begging for fascism, forced participation in private "health" "insurance" by the same evil corporations that have failed us and screwed us for years, simultaneously wishing that healthy people get sick? To teach someone a lesson?

I'm not wishing for it; I'm saying it HAPPENS. You are only healthy until you're not. Nobody is immortal, including yourself. Denial is not a healthcare plan.

sbh says

because fascism is historically championed by reactionary rightists.

Ironic huh? What's stupid in general about the yelling about communism/facism and other nonsense from folks is that they are basically claiming to be scared of something that has never happened in the US. yet when you look over to countries today- modern Germany for example- where the have social healthcare, unions, strong labor, why- they now have some of the highest wages in Europe, the most stable manufacturing industry, higher life expectancies, better standards of living, better and more cared-for infrastructure, and so on. Are they communists for having such a setup? Nope. And neither would we, if the GOP would get out of the way and let things happen versus bellow about an imaginary boogeyman.

Edvard, you've referenced people eating healthy multiple times now. How do you define "eating healthy"?

You mean following the food pyramid, with 12 servings of breads and grains and cereals per day?

Becaise that's what the usfedgov reccomends, and that's what we now know thru science, is in fact highly toxic

errc says

Edvard, you've referenced people eating healthy multiple times now. How do you define "eating healthy"?

You mean following the food pyramid, with 12 servings of breads and grains and cereals per day?

Becaise that's what the usfedgov reccomends, and that's what we now know thru science, is in fact highly toxic

What? You want to continue trying to argue about this? What the hell?

A CBS News poll released Wednesday shows that President Obama and his signature piece of legislation have hit record lows. Only 37% of those polled approve of the job the president is doing, with 57% disapproving. ObamaCare is even more unpopular. A full 61% disapprove of the health care law. Only 31% approve.

I'm waiting for the next 'crisis' to take the Obamacare fiasco out of the limelight....

AverageBear says

Only 37% of those polled approve of the job the president is doing, with 57% disapproving. ObamaCare is even more unpopular. A full 61% disapprove of the health care law. Only 31% approve.

At the same time the overall approval rating for the GOP is less than 20% at the moment. So its not like those on the right can jump for joy by any means because " their side" is fairing even worse.

AverageBear says

I'm waiting for the next 'crisis' to take the Obamacare fiasco out of the limelight....

It'll probably default back to the Republicans. Actually, their situation is more long-term anyway, as they continue to lack the ability to reach out to minorities and Hispanics whom they will desperately need in order to have a chance of winning in 2016.

Either way, the ACA will in time work out its kinks and the GOP will need to find another thing to desperately cling to as a last-ditch effort to prevent their party's slow slide into obscurity.

Call it Crazy says

Eddie, Eddie, Eddie.... Hopefully some day you'll wake up and stop blaming the GOP and accept your boy Obama for the failure that he is.

You're simply stating what you so desperately want to believe: That Obama is a failure while ironically totally forgetting the entire previous administration which unquestionably was a failure for the majority of its existence.

That and the lack of comprehension of what the long term situation is with the GOP, which is that as we speak is undergoing the biggest identity crisis its had in decades. The demographic mathematics are at increasingly bigger odds against the future of the GOP's success, at least if they keep on trying to force ideology that is contrary to modern America.

Simply put, the GOP doesn't deserve my blame. They can blame themselves. Sure- I am totally aware that the GOP is at this juncture breathing a sigh of relief that they finally have something to pin on Obama. But this is only temporary and the long term problems I mentioned above aren't going away.

PS: Posting dumb pictures doesn't make your incorrect statements anymore correct.

edvard2 says

You're simply stating what you so desperately want to believe: That Obama is a failure while ironically totally forgetting the entire previous administration which unquestionably was a failure for the majority of its existence.

Failure? What failure. Both parties are extremely successful at doing what their corporate masters demand.

bob2356 says

Failure? What failure. Both parties are extremely successful at doing what their corporate masters demand.

Not entirely un-true as both parties are guilty of getting into bed with big business. But in the case of the GOP, its a part of their brand. Why else would a party decide to proclaim that most things that are beneficial ( like pollution, emission controls, less reliance on coal, social services, financial regulation, healthcare, pensions, unions, and a slew of others) are somehow bad? Its because each and every single one of those are tied to the wishes of the industries whom use the GOP as their mouthpiece and in turn the GOP simply re-labels the cause simply as being "Liberals". Its simple really...

Call it Crazy says

Oh Eddie..

Unsurprising. This seems to be a common response mechanism from some on this site: When and if you can't win an argument because your side of the argument lacks any real material then its always handy to resort to 3rd-grader type tactics- like posting silly pictures. That doesn't really work, sorry. Let me know when you would like to have a real debate.

Call it Crazy says

already told you, we can't have a real debate until you take these off....

Unfortunately my browser is temporarily unable to show images so I assume what you meant is that we cant discuss intelligent political debates until you can come up with something that is based in reality.

Its the republicans fault that the democrats suck so much. Lol

Bizzaro world

errc says

Its the republicans fault that the democrats suck so much. Lol

Bizzaro world

Well, seeing as how today happens to be opposite day, I partially concur except that its nobody's fault that the GOP sucks except for their own.

sbh says

My, my. I was off by two and a half hours:

All I can say is: Well it was about time. Good. Now its time to get things done without the gop-fillibusters getting in the way and not doing their jobs.