patrick.net

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Bigsby says

You'll just have to see how many years you spent renting and what the current house prices are in the BA when that time comes. It doesn't look that great for you as things stand.

What the hell are you talking about. Every year since 2007 I am in a better and better situation. Next year will be the same I'm sure. And the year after and after. I'll buy when I think that trend will stop. We are not even close yet from where I stand. Geesh.

What am I talking about? You make claims of expecting a further 50-70%+ drop in prices and the like. When exactly will you be willing or able to buy a property? What if house prices track at or just below the rate of inflation for the next 20 years? What if they lose value but nowhere near the extent that you predict or need? Will you keep waiting and waiting then? Your 5/10/15/20... years of further renting may not look like such a good financial decision then. Do you see my point now?

Call it Crazy says

You NEVER own your home, PERIOD... even if it is mortgage free!! Try not making real estate tax payments and see who comes knocking on your door. You will ALWAYS be RENTING your house.

Correct. We have a winner!

wthrfrk80 says

Call it Crazy says

You NEVER own your home, PERIOD... even if it is mortgage free!! Try not making real estate tax payments and see who comes knocking on your door. You will ALWAYS be RENTING your house.

Correct. We have a winner!

Try buying a house, paying off the mortgage, and then selling it. Are you seriously telling me you never owned it then?

woppa says

I guess I don't OWN my LIFE or my FREEDOM, since I have to pay all kinds of taxes to the government. If I don't they will lock me up. Try not paying income taxes and see what happens.

Exactly right. Thanks to the income tax, no one even owns the fruits of their own labor. We are no longer a free people.

woppa says

These threads are stupid, and a waste of time.

Or do they demonstrate just how much we've really lost?

Do you EFFING RETARDS realize that taxes go to many things like roads and bridges and schools and all kinds of other crap that may or may not benefit you directly? I mean what do you think these taxes go towards? Yeah, we pay property taxes, doesn't mean we don't own the home. If you have no mortgage, you own that home. I mean to say otherwise is just moronic. Taxes have their purpose, and it's not to claim ownership of your home. If you don't want to pay taxes, go live off the grid in the jungle somewhere, subsist on your own. Simple as that right?

woppa says

I mean what do you think these taxes go towards?

Ton of taxes goes to waste govt. spending and 6 figure pensions and free health care for lifetime for the govt. employees.

Bigsby says

Try buying a house, paying off the mortgage, and then selling it. Are you seriously telling me you never owned it then?

You have "some" ownership of it, I suppose. It's at best an asset that pays negative dividends and slowly rots in the rain. It's necessary for shelter.

The only reason (I can think of) to "buy" a house is to
A) rent it to someone else (i.e. get rental income)
B) rent it to yourself (i.e. avoid paying someone else rent)

Every other reason is emotional.

Sure, but that is an entirely different subject. Tons of local and state taxes also go towards roads so you can drive to work, schools so your kids can learn for free. Federal taxes go largely towards defense, and medicare/medicaid so your parents can have health insurance. You are really going to cry about paying taxes because that means you don't own you house? A ninth grader could debate that ridiculous statement into the ground.

wthrfrk80 says

Bigsby says

Try buying a house, paying off the mortgage, and then selling it. Are you seriously telling me you never owned it then?

You have "some" ownership of it, I suppose. It's at best an asset that pays negative dividends and slowly rots in the rain. It's necessary for shelter.

The only reason (I can think of) to "buy" a house is to

A) rent it to someone else (i.e. get rental income)

B) rent it to yourself (i.e. avoid paying someone else rent)

Every other reason is emotional.

I bought my house because I pay less for it than renting a one bedroom in a grimy apartment building, and I will pay a whole lot less in 15 years. I get a deduction on my taxes, (whether or not this is a good thing, I get it nonetheless) and I don't have to smell someones disgusting ciggarete smoke wofting in through my kitchen window from the next apartment over, or hear footsteps above me from the 300+ pound couple and there 35 pound 1 year old. Those reasons are not made up, that is actual fact. *I did have to invest some money into the house in renovations and down payment, but I am paying less than my rent was, and I have an extra bedroom and a WAY nicer kitchen.

woppa says

You are really going to cry about paying taxes because that means you don't own you house? A ninth grader could debate that ridiculous statement into the ground.

I'm not "crying" about anything. But I generally consider ownership as keeping something w/o paying continuously for the privilege.

Do whatever you want with your own money.

Anyone else care to make stupid comments/assumptions about buying/renting? If you are unable to figure out whether or not buying or renting is right for you, I will be glad to come slap you in the back of your head after referring you to 900 other threads talking about the same damn ridiculous question with the same damn ridiculous answers, most of which are completely moronic.

Believe it or not, I'm considering buying a house. Where I live it's cheaper than renting.

Other areas are so expensive it can be better to rent.

I'm just trying to point out that the "you must buy a house to secure your financial future" meme is often b.s. A house is a place to live, not an investment.

Like I said, go to the jungles, and live with a tribe. But when you tell them to go screw themselves cause you do not feel like sharing your kill with the rest of the tribe, you might want to watch your back.

wthrfrk80 says

Believe it or not, I'm considering buying a house. Where I live it's cheaper than renting.

Other areas are so expensive it can be better to rent.

I'm just trying to point out that the "you must buy a house to secure your financial future" meme is often b.s. A house is a place to live, not an investment.

Yes, this is the logical assessment that I expect from patrick.net frequenters. It just drives me nuts when I hear someone say you don't own a house cause you pay taxes on it.

Call it Crazy says

We're getting closer... a calculator is your best friend!!!

Besides your monthly payment, now add the loss of use/investment of your down payment for any other use, add in your closing and legal costs both buying AND selling, add in the money spent on the current renovations and the money you need to save for future repairs and renovations and don't forget to add the increases in costs of your property taxes and homeowners insurance.

Now take your calculator and put ALL those into your "monthly costs" by "owning" and then come back at tell us which way is better...

Yes, yes. There are both costs and benefits involved in purchasing a house. Your point has been made hundreds, probably thousands, of times before.

Ok buddy, the money spent on renovations was half the amount of increase in my appraisal. My mortgage/taxes are less than my rent and GOING DOWN, NOT UP 3% a year like they were in my apartment. Everything in my house is beautiful, hardwood floors, not linoleum. I have a yard, instead of living next to a nasty highway that bothered my wifes athsma. I have an additional bedroom and more space in the living room. There is no comparison in my case, owning is by far the better option, and every year the numbers make more sense due to the simple fact that I am that much closer to paying off my mortgage, rather than seeing my rent rise.

Call it Crazy says

OK, based on your argument, if you don't pay your property taxes the sheriff comes and only takes the LAND your house is on, and he leaves the HOUSE for you, because you OWN it without a mortgage, right???? You can just take your paid off house and move it somewhere else, right??

Do I understand your point??

You are liable to taxation on your property. That doesn't mean you don't own it, or are you saying that if you do pay your taxes, sell your house, and collect the money for it that you still never owned the property?

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

Try buying a house, paying off the mortgage, and then selling it. Are you seriously telling me you never owned it then?

You RENTED it from the bank and paid them a tremendous amount of INTEREST for the privilege!! You hopefully gained some equity in the process (not every one does)...

So? You borrowed money and paid interest. Amazing. That still doesn't mean you are renting the house from the bank, does it?

Call it Crazy says

Wow, someone's rose colored glasses are really dark.

Who CARES where the taxes go, you just have to pay them if you want to continue to be the "owner" of the house. Try not paying your taxes and you'll truly see who the REAL owners of your house ends up being... (hint, it won't be YOU)...

What's your point? You could just as easily say 'continue to pay your taxes and see who the real owner of the house is - yes, the owner!'

Call it Crazy says

Right, yet some STILL can't see the big picture... I've been on both side of the equation and I admit I bought into the "American Dream" scam of home ownership. Then I finally took out the calculator and added up the TRUE cost of ownership... that's when I took off the rose colored glasses.....

You sat down and thought about whether it was a good idea for you to buy or continue to rent. Well done.

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

So? You borrowed money and paid interest. Amazing. That still doesn't mean you are renting the house from the bank, does it?

You tell me, who are you sending your monthly payment to??? (Hint, if you are sending a payment to someone, you don't own it..)

This is ridiculous. You aren't renting the property from the bank. You are paying down a loan you took from the bank. The two things are not the same.

Bigsby says

This is ridiculous. You aren't renting the property from the bank. You are paying down a loan you took from the bank. The two things are not the same.

They're not the same thing from a legal standpoint. But they aren't much different from a financial standpoint.

Payments made on borrowed money = interest
Payments made on borrowed houses = rent

In most of the USA, for a given house, it's cheaper to rent the money to buy the house than rent the house. But in certain expensive markets it can be cheaper to just rent a place.

Again, I'm making no absolute statements. You have to do the math. Every location is different.

Call it Crazy says

Wow, someone's rose colored glasses are really dark.

Who CARES where the taxes go, you just have to pay them if you want to continue to be the "owner" of the house. Try not paying your taxes and you'll truly see who the REAL owners of your house ends up being... (hint, it won't be YOU)...

I care where the taxes go. I do not mind paying taxes, that is a part of society. My kids go to school free of charge. I am able to go to work on roads that my taxes pay to maintain. I use public parks. I enjoy benefits from paying my taxes. Your argument that I do not own a house because I pay taxes is moronic. I could argue better that I own public parks and roads and schools better than you could argue that I DO NOT OWN MY HOUSE. THAT IS HOW MORONIC THAT ARGUMENT IS.

Oh and my 20k in down payment and 30k in renovations would have been sitting in a bank earning a whopping 1% a year AT BEST, if I were to continue renting and paying 3% rise in interests year after year. That would mean I would be losing money on that deal. My numbers are untouchable. Sure, some people make bonehead decisions when they buy a house, but not me.

Wrong, my house had been appraised at 150k 2 years ago when I bought it, it now appraised for 240k with 6 comparisons a few months ago when i refi'd to a 15 year. Try as you may, making up numbers doesn't really mean jack. These are the facts. 10% a year in NYC! LOL

Oh and since you seem to have problems with numbers, I have 160k of equity according to that recent appraisal, and an 80k loan. And now I await you telling me that my appraisal was bad and those 6 comparisons were just figments of my imagination. Morons.

wthrfrk80 says

They're not the same thing from a legal standpoint. But they aren't much different from a financial standpoint.

Payments made on borrowed money = interest
Payments made on borrowed houses = rent

Not much different? Well, that entirely depends, but you do seem to be skirting around the very important fact that at the end of the mortgage repayment period, you own the house.

It is hilarious, the nerve of these fools. I am ATTESTING to the my situation, and yet I have him telling me that I made a bad choice. I am a very financially conscious person, I know the value of a dollar. I am not one of the many idiots during the bubble (and even now) who think houses are a great investment and I am going to triple my money in the next ten years!

-I know how much I was paying and what I am paying now.
-I know what my money would be earning and more or less where the value of my house is headed.
-I know the many intangibles that I gain as an owner of a house vs renting in a tenement, which you cannot put a $ amount on.
-I know I am not going anywhere for a long time, at least until this house is paid off.

Yet you want to tell me I made a bad choice, and you do not even know me. You reek of jealous bitter rental syndrome. Or perhaps lost a ton in the bubble syndrome.

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

This is ridiculous. You aren't renting the property from the bank. You are paying down a loan you took from the bank. The two things are not the same.

I give up (banging head against the wall...)

Good, because your points are obvious and irrelevant.

Call it Crazy says

woppa says

-I know I am not going anywhere for a long time, at least until this house is paid off.

I hope you are right......

That is the point that you question? I could have sworn you were going to tell me my house is going to be worth about the same as a compact car by the time I am ready to sell. I am extremely comfortable in my house, and my job is extremely secure. I am not going anywhere for a good while.

Call it Crazy says

I think you need your calculator... how much "equity" do you have? Let me "help" you with your numbers.

How much is your loan?
How much did you spend on all your renovations so far?
How much did you spend on all your closing costs the first time? (go look at your HUD-1)
How much did you spend on your recent refi costs for appraisals, closing, etc?

Now add this all up and THEN subtract from your perceived value. What's your "equity" now??

Your welcome for the math lesson!!

Such insight. Such mathematical genius. Could you possibly be the very first person to take these factors into account when contemplating real estate?

Call it Crazy says

woppa says

I have 160k of equity according to that recent appraisal, and an 80k loan.

I think you need your calculator... how much "equity" do you have? Let me "help" you with your numbers.

How much is your loan?

How much did you spend on all your renovations so far?

How much did you spend on all your closing costs the first time? (go look at your HUD-1)

How much did you spend on your recent refi costs for appraisals, closing, etc?

Now add this all up and THEN subtract from your perceived value. What's your "equity" now??

Your welcome for the math lesson!!

Okay, I simplified slightly, but the closing costs were added into the loan my friend. I did not miss those. My 50k invested into my house is now equity in my house. Equity is found by subracting the amount of all loans from the current value. That comes out to 160k. That is called equity my friend. I did not say 160k profit, I said 160k equity. Keep trying...I am still not tired of this yet.

Call it Crazy says

Try not paying your taxes and you'll truly see who the REAL owners of your house ends up being... (hint, it won't be YOU)...

I thought I was the employer and I had some employees working for me, but I stopped paying payroll taxes and now I'm no longer a business owner.

I thought I owned a car, but stopped paying my reg fees and I'm not allowed to drive it anymore

I thought I was free to travel internationally, but I didn't pay my passport renewal fee, and now I'm stuck in the US

I thought I was a lawyer, but I failed to pay my annual bar license fee and now I can't practice

I thought I owned shares of Apple, but when I failed to pay my taxes they threw me in jail

I thought I owned my cash, but I couldn't pass it along to my heirs without being taxed

Woe is me, who owns nothing. If only I lived in Somalia where I own everything I can protect with my AK47. That's some true ownership there.

Bigsby says

You make claims of expecting a further 50-70%+ drop in prices

Again, what the hell are you talking about? Crazy talk you do.

woppa says

I mean what do you think these taxes go towards?

Paying the DEBT interest
Paying for the bank bailouts
Paying for socialized home ownership programs
Paying for the wars

Did I miss anything?

Bigsby says

Call it Crazy says

We're getting closer... a calculator is your best friend!!!

Besides your monthly payment, now add the loss of use/investment of your down payment for any other use, add in your closing and legal costs both buying AND selling, add in the money spent on the current renovations and the money you need to save for future repairs and renovations and don't forget to add the increases in costs of your property taxes and homeowners insurance.

Now take your calculator and put ALL those into your "monthly costs" by "owning" and then come back at tell us which way is better...

Yes, yes. There are both costs and benefits involved in purchasing a house. Your point has been made hundreds, probably thousands, of times before.

And each and every time you avoid using it. Pure genius are you.

woppa says

A ninth grader could debate that ridiculous statement into the ground.

Is this ground theirs or do they still pay taxes on it? Just curious.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

And each and every time you avoid using it. Pure genius are you.

Clearly not genius enough to understand what the hell you are saying, but then it's generally a struggle to parse your nonsense.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Bigsby says

You make claims of expecting a further 50-70%+ drop in prices

Again, what the hell are you talking about? Crazy talk you do.

So you aren't Collapsing Housing Prices in another guise? My apologies. Your spiel is easy to confuse with his.

Yikes. I didn't think a discussion of "rent vs. buy" could turn into a flame war.

Everyone's situation is different of course. In many (most?) places it is probably better to buy than rent, as long as you plan on "staying put" for at least 5 years.