patrick.net

They'll run back crying in no time.

drB6 says

True. However, if they stop H-1 then companies will just move their shops to India/China. Pharmaceutical industry has been doing this for 15 years already.

And we can block their imports.

Call It Crazy says

Since before the invention of money, the wealthy have an end game: they have everything and the rest have nothing but work and pain.

After that, there is French or Russian revolution with the (too greedy) rich strung from lamp posts. Alternative is rich being somewhat less greedy and leaving a small part of the pie to the poor.
Call It Crazy says

Unions are the only thing I ever seen stop this

Up to a point you are right. After union leaders join the rich, not so much.
Call It Crazy says

representatives who have scruples and moral compass

Representatives and moral scruples should not be used in one sentence.

Patrick says

And we can block their imports.

Not if our elected representatives are on pharma payroll, which is the case now.

drB6 says

Patrick says

And we can block their imports.

Not if our elected representatives are on pharma payroll, which is the case now.

Sadly true. Pharma is one of the biggest bribers of Congressmen.

Make sortition sound like a good idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

Tim Aurora says

many cases creators of great companies such as SUN, Google, Hotmail

2/3 of H1B come from India. Let's look at tech company founders. Apple, Google, Sales Force, Facebook, Netflix, Amazon, Microsoft - none of the founders are from India.

Look; the solution is FCKING SIMPLE! Mandate a $120k salary to H1B visa holders and the problem of companies using them to undercut the labor market goes away!

Quigley says

Look; the solution is FCKING SIMPLE! Mandate a $120k salary to H1B visa holders and the problem of companies using them to undercut the labor market goes away!

That would solve some of the problem Employers would want to vet the H-1 skills more if they are paying 120K minimum.

I like this solution.

I suggested $120k because it’s double what the law mandates now, which is way too low and encourages abuse.

Quigley says

Look; the solution is FCKING SIMPLE! Mandate a $120k salary to H1B visa holders and the problem of companies using them to undercut the labor market goes away!

I have an idea ... let's start with a typical physician's assistant salary & move from there.

https://www1.salary.com/MA/Boston/Physician-Assistant-Medical-Salary.html

It's ~$116K/yr in Greater Boston, and use that, as a starting point for H1-B tech careers. We'll need to come up with a working average, which can react to the various urban markets out there.

BTW, that's not too far from your ~$120K/yr target and what it does, since we know that American citizens want health care careers with stability/long term prospects, the PA is the best way to gauge if we keep salaries competitive enough, that enough Americans will choose STEM over health care careers.

Rin says

BTW, that's not too far from your ~$120K/yr target and what it does, since we know that American citizens want health care careers with stability/long term prospects, the PA is the best way to gauge if we keep salaries competitive enough, that enough Americans will choose STEM over health care careers.

On a more sardonic note ... it's hard to believe that anyone would choose a field, like being a biosciences (or any science/engineering) postdoc, at $40K/yr, over a heath care profession, having had to do twice the avg schoolwork as a typical PA.

ThreeBays says

We need to stop outsource houses from using most of the H1Bs, and keep H1Bs for jobs that really need qualified people that aren't available.

Agreed.

ThreeBays says

There are not millions of Americans ready to take tech jobs. Tech industry is adding nearly 200,000 jobs per year. US is producing only ~8k EE and 13k CS engineering non-foreign grads a year.

Chicken or egg situation ... all EE/CS American grads start with zero experience sans let's say a summer/fall co-op at let's say Lawrence Livermore or Qualcomm, if they're among the lucky applicants.

With that stated, there are in fact, many older Americans ready for those jobs.

Even on this forum, the cat fan, zzyzzx, was once an experienced EE, and was driven out of his profession via a mix of offshoring & automation. He's not interested in coming back, just to go through that all over again.

And for me, I was in applied chemistry/chemical engineering and had left those areas for one, IT, and then later, hedge fund activities. That latter move made me several millions so I'm a 100% sure I won't be returning, even if Applied Materials begged me.

And likewise, if you scour the land, you'll find many Americans with STEM backgrounds, who'd left the tech sector for finance, health care, real estate, management consulting, and other less offshorable (plus downwardly mobile) activities during the span of their early careers. The reality of the situation is that if STEM compensations were like physician assistants, while attempting to maintain a high level of employment, (w/o continuous layoffs) we would never have created this post-STEM diaspora. Realize, many STEM grads are smart, and the expression, 'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.' applies here.

Rin says

applied chemistry/chemical engineering

Same as me, only I have not yet been outsourced from my faculty position.
Until 2007 or so I encouraged students to go into chemistry/chem E as jobs were stable and relatively plentiful. Now, not so much because if they are lucky, they can expected to be fired at 50 (if unlucky, then 3 years after being hired). Having said that, since we are on Gulf Coast, ChemE is still a pretty good and lucrative occupation. They can not outsource oil refineries that easily.

Health professions are good for now, but I think they will crash and burn soon because medical price increases are simply too high. "Medical tourism" will kill dental, ophthalmology, etc.

drB6 says

Health professions are good for now, but I think they will crash and burn soon because medical price increases are simply too high. "Medical tourism" will kill dental, ophthalmology, etc.

If I remember my earlier years, this was something which STEM students would tell each other, to make themselves feel good whenever there's a layoff round.

In reality, medical tourism will eliminate the $500K/yr surgeons and anesthesiologists.

For a PA, going from let's say a perky $115K/yr down to perhaps, $80K/yr, is not the end of the world. And Urgent Care clinics are in greater demand and the need for locally provided internal medicine is only going up.

So let's say a PA works ten years at $100K/yr, then gets booted down to $80K/yr, that's still 20 years totally $1.8M.

For a ChemE, it's 7 yrs x $75K/yr and then, the following 13 yrs from underemployment/contract work at let's say $75K/yr but only working at 8 years average, due to all the re-sizings, makes his 20 year career only $1.1M.

As an American and having to do it over again, I'd choose the PA route, if I didn't nail the MCAT.

Heraclitusstudent says

There won't be much job growth in a profession where you can move products almost instantly across frontiers

.

That is what tariffs are for.

ThreeBays says

We need to stop outsource houses from using most of the H1Bs, and keep H1Bs for jobs that really need qualified people that aren't available.

There are not millions of Americans ready to take tech jobs. Tech industry is adding nearly 200,000 jobs per year. US is producing only ~8k EE and 13k CS engineering non-foreign grads a year.

I agree, but my point is that an awful amount of those H1B jobs do not actually require a CS or EE degree at all.

Seriously, most H1B's seem to be jobs where someone clicks around on a website making sure everything looks OK.

Anyway, making a $120K minimum floor for an H1B job would require employers to be more careful about displacing Americans.

Unions are the only thing I ever seen stop this

Hard to see your point here when today's Unions are pro illegal immigration.

ThreeBays says

Tech industry is adding nearly 200,000 jobs per year. US is producing only ~8k EE and 13k CS engineering non-foreign grads a year.

Tech industry is not adding 200K jobs that require CS or EE degrees. Your typical big tech company such as Microsoft is at least 50% sales and operations.

Apple -60K engineers max
Facebook - 15K engineers max
Microsoft - 60k engineers max
Google -35K engineers max

That's still less than 200K. So this 200k a year number is fake.

HeadSet says

Unions are the only thing I ever seen stop this

Hard to see your point here when today's Unions are pro illegal immigration.

Yah I absolutely hate that part of my own union. The top brass are all “si, se puede” and stuff, “irregardless” of the fact that illegals are union buster scabs. Most of the rank and file agree with me that illegal immigration is a problem. With exception that we have a ton of Latino workers who often have pro-Latino stances “irregardless” of the fact that new illegals threaten their own jobs.

Patrick says

Anyway, making a $120K minimum floor for an H1B job would require employers to be more careful about displacing Americans.

Require advertising for 90 days on Monster, Dice, or a major English-Language US publication (ie not "Laotian News" circulation 10,000).
Job must be published another 30 days with full salary information.
Company must prove to Dept of Labor they've offered the Median Wage and received NO applications.
If they've received applications, under penalty of perjury, show why each individual was unqualified.
Put up $20,000 Visa Fee.
Under penalty of Perjury, send the application of the foreigner, whose qualifications must be SUPERIOR to those they rejected.
H1-B recipient, must pay $150 for a nationally-recognized test for each claimed qualification and pass (ie Exchange Server - the same Test given to those seeking MS credentials. Not some fly-by night bullshit fake company that passes everybody who takes their 'test'. IE Linux Foundation, Not John Galt Fucks Borders LLC of SFBA).
Not allowed for Entry Level Positions, at least 6 years combined education/experience.
Pay Unemployment.
Only companies using the H1B can apply and use the H1B. Consulting companies are forbidden the H1B entirely. Only in-house work.