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1   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 9:59am   ↑ like (6)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

To be honest, a lot of H1B visa holders are doing jobs that millions of Americans could easily do, like manual QA testing. Working around here I see it a lot. Not so many actually have skills that Americans do not.

The whole point of the H1B program seems to be to enable big employers undercut US wages with half a million obedient workers whose presence in the country is dependent on that job. It's really very much like the employment of illegal aliens, who are similarly obedient and work for much less than US citizens.

At least the article gets close to admitting that:

Almost from the beginning, the H-1B system had obvious flaws. Outsourcing companies flood the application pool with jobs that barely qualify as high-skill
2   drB6   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 10:15am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

tovarichpeter says
The whole point of the H1B program seems to be to enable big employers undercut US wages with half a million obedient workers whose presence in the country is dependent on that job. It's really very much like the employment of illegal aliens, who are similarly obedient and work for much less than US citizens.

True. However, if they stop H-1 then companies will just move their shops to India/China. Pharmaceutical industry has been doing this for 15 years already.
3   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 10:19am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Great news!
Trump’s plan is working!
MAGA bitches!
4   Hassan_Rouhani   ignore (2)   2018 Apr 20, 10:26am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

drB6 says
However, if they stop H-1 then companies will just move their shops to India/China.


There is no "if": they are doing it regardless.
5   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 10:30am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Patrick says
The whole point of the H1B program seems to be to enable big employers undercut US wages with half a million obedient workers

The point is to boost growth in this industry by having more people in technical jobs, and fostering a richer tech ecosystem.
We are flooded with totally unskilled illegal immigrants, but we make life harder for a few tens of thousands legal immigrants than for 10+ millions illegal immigrants.
6   drB6   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 10:33am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Satoshi_Nakamoto says
There is no "if": they are doing it regardless.

H-1 seems like an intermediate stage of moving everything except management out of US and remaking US into country populated by 0.1% ultra-rich managers and 99.9% of minimum-wage earners. First, hire H-1, then slowly fire them while openings shops elsewhere and moving some of H-1 back to their countries of origin to lead company branches there.
7   Rin   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 20, 10:35am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
a lot of H1B visa holders are doing jobs that millions of Americans could easily do, like manual QA testing.


For many such jobs, the goal is to get either a university student or an H1-B, aka cheap labor. The idea of having a professional class for IT or engineers (see layoffs at places like DuPont, etc) is anathema so really, it's a wonder why more STEM types don't opt for health care like nursing, physician's assistant or just plain MD/medical school. By now, since it's no longer 1998 (where ppl could claim ignorance of reality) but 2018, everyone should already know this.
8   Tim Aurora   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 10:38am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

The fact is that Silicon Valley and NY Banking are the two main drivers of US economy and employ more immigrants than any other industry. By taking the H1-B out, you are throttling them.

As flawed as H1-B is, and it has some serious flaws, it allows US to import very highly skilled set of families (people and their high performing children). I for one support it as the future is science and technology and these folks are hard working , tax paying and in many cases creators of great companies such as SUN, Google, Hotmail . And as racist it may sound, I welcome them to our gene-pool.

The results of reducing H1-B may show after a few years when the companies will start moving jobs or companies to other countries such as Canada, India and China.
9   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 10:38am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

"cheap labor": You could indeed limit the number of workers in the US: some local companies would pay more and be at a disadvantage globally, multinationals would just move offices abroad. There won't be much job growth in a profession where you can move products almost instantly across frontiers. The only question is how do you capture as much of it as possible.
10   drB6   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 10:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Rin says
For many such jobs, the goal is to get either a university student or an H1-B, aka cheap labor. The idea of having a professional class for IT or engineers (see layoffs at places like DuPont, etc) is anathema so really, it's a wonder why more STEM types don't opt for health care like nursing, physician's assistant or just plan MD/medical school. By now, since it's no longer 1998 (where ppl could claim ignorance of reality) but 2018, everyone should already know this.

Another variation of the same is companies giving small amounts of money to universities to perform research that companies need; the net result is that this research is done by a student/postdoc who gets paid 30K and not by company employed PhD scientist earning 120K. It also cuts down on positions that company needs thus resulting in less job opportunities by students/postdocs.
11   Rin   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 20, 10:44am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

drB6 says
Another variation of the same is companies giving small amounts of money to universities to perform research that companies need; the net result is that this research is done by a student/postdoc who gets paid 30K and not by company employed PhD scientist earning 120K. It also cuts down on positions that company needs thus resulting in less job opportunities by students.


Yes, that started a whole generation ago but at least it wasn't a fully scalable solution so places like DuPont, Dow, Johnson & Johnson, etc, still needed corporate R&D depts to keep themselves going.

Today, it's either sending the entire lab to Asia-Pacific or H1B/students stateside.

Let the Americans go to nursing school. If you notice, Urgent Care clinics are popping up everywhere.
12   bob2356   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 10:45am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Tim Aurora says
it allows US to import very highly skilled set of families


Highly skilled like the h1b's that replaced the sysops at disney who had to train their h1b replacements?
13   Rin   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 20, 10:48am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Tim Aurora says
to other countries such as Canada


Not a problem because places like Toronto have the highest amount of cabbies, who have advanced degrees. If anything, the sheer number of educated ppl in Canada, has not generated a job market like the ones in the mid-Atlantic or the Texas triangle.

Why do you think it's so easy to get a hoe, who'd studied at the University of Montreal, looking for a sugar daddy, while she works on that great Canadian novel? It's because no one wants to be a secretary there, work as a pharmacy tech, or at a restaurant.
14   Call It Crazy   ignore (3)   2018 Apr 20, 3:55pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

drB6 says
99.9% of minimum-wage earners

Since before the invention of money, the wealthy have an end game: they have everything and the rest have nothing but work and pain.

Minimum wage is so much more than that.

The end game here and everywhere is work camps and prison for the complainers, who will work at gunpoint.

Unions are the only thing I ever seen stop this, that and representatives who have scruples and moral compass.
15   Call It Crazy   ignore (3)   2018 Apr 20, 3:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Tim Aurora says
as racist it may sound, I welcome them

WTF "welcoming" is not racist nor is it xenophobic
16   Hassan_Rouhani   ignore (2)   2018 Apr 20, 4:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

They'll run back crying in no time.
17   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 4:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

drB6 says
True. However, if they stop H-1 then companies will just move their shops to India/China. Pharmaceutical industry has been doing this for 15 years already.


And we can block their imports.
18   drB6   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 4:30pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Call It Crazy says
Since before the invention of money, the wealthy have an end game: they have everything and the rest have nothing but work and pain.

After that, there is French or Russian revolution with the (too greedy) rich strung from lamp posts. Alternative is rich being somewhat less greedy and leaving a small part of the pie to the poor.
Call It Crazy says
Unions are the only thing I ever seen stop this

Up to a point you are right. After union leaders join the rich, not so much.
Call It Crazy says
representatives who have scruples and moral compass

Representatives and moral scruples should not be used in one sentence.
19   TrumpingTits   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 4:37pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Tim Aurora says
The fact is that Silicon Valley and NY Banking are the two main drivers of US economy ...


That is just more self-serving BS from the SV Bubble.
20   drB6   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 4:41pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
And we can block their imports.

Not if our elected representatives are on pharma payroll, which is the case now.
21   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 4:55pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

drB6 says
Patrick says
And we can block their imports.

Not if our elected representatives are on pharma payroll, which is the case now.


Sadly true. Pharma is one of the biggest bribers of Congressmen.

Make sortition sound like a good idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
22   anotheraccount   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 4:57pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Tim Aurora says
many cases creators of great companies such as SUN, Google, Hotmail


2/3 of H1B come from India. Let's look at tech company founders. Apple, Google, Sales Force, Facebook, Netflix, Amazon, Microsoft - none of the founders are from India.
23   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 5:10pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Look; the solution is FCKING SIMPLE! Mandate a $120k salary to H1B visa holders and the problem of companies using them to undercut the labor market goes away!
24   anotheraccount   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 20, 5:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
Look; the solution is FCKING SIMPLE! Mandate a $120k salary to H1B visa holders and the problem of companies using them to undercut the labor market goes away!


That would solve some of the problem Employers would want to vet the H-1 skills more if they are paying 120K minimum.
25   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 7:24pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I like this solution.
26   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 7:26pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I suggested $120k because it’s double what the law mandates now, which is way too low and encourages abuse.
27   Rin   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 20, 10:06pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
Look; the solution is FCKING SIMPLE! Mandate a $120k salary to H1B visa holders and the problem of companies using them to undercut the labor market goes away!


I have an idea ... let's start with a typical physician's assistant salary & move from there.

https://www1.salary.com/MA/Boston/Physician-Assistant-Medical-Salary.html

It's ~$116K/yr in Greater Boston, and use that, as a starting point for H1-B tech careers. We'll need to come up with a working average, which can react to the various urban markets out there.

BTW, that's not too far from your ~$120K/yr target and what it does, since we know that American citizens want health care careers with stability/long term prospects, the PA is the best way to gauge if we keep salaries competitive enough, that enough Americans will choose STEM over health care careers.
28   Rin   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 20, 10:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Rin says
BTW, that's not too far from your ~$120K/yr target and what it does, since we know that American citizens want health care careers with stability/long term prospects, the PA is the best way to gauge if we keep salaries competitive enough, that enough Americans will choose STEM over health care careers.


On a more sardonic note ... it's hard to believe that anyone would choose a field, like being a biosciences (or any science/engineering) postdoc, at $40K/yr, over a heath care profession, having had to do twice the avg schoolwork as a typical PA.
29   ThreeBays   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 20, 11:19pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

We need to stop outsource houses from using most of the H1Bs, and keep H1Bs for jobs that really need qualified people that aren't available.

There are not millions of Americans ready to take tech jobs. Tech industry is adding nearly 200,000 jobs per year. US is producing only ~8k EE and 13k CS engineering non-foreign grads a year.
30   Rin   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 21, 7:32am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

ThreeBays says
We need to stop outsource houses from using most of the H1Bs, and keep H1Bs for jobs that really need qualified people that aren't available.


Agreed.

ThreeBays says
There are not millions of Americans ready to take tech jobs. Tech industry is adding nearly 200,000 jobs per year. US is producing only ~8k EE and 13k CS engineering non-foreign grads a year.


Chicken or egg situation ... all EE/CS American grads start with zero experience sans let's say a summer/fall co-op at let's say Lawrence Livermore or Qualcomm, if they're among the lucky applicants.

With that stated, there are in fact, many older Americans ready for those jobs.

Even on this forum, the cat fan, zzyzzx, was once an experienced EE, and was driven out of his profession via a mix of offshoring & automation. He's not interested in coming back, just to go through that all over again.

And for me, I was in applied chemistry/chemical engineering and had left those areas for one, IT, and then later, hedge fund activities. That latter move made me several millions so I'm a 100% sure I won't be returning, even if Applied Materials begged me.

And likewise, if you scour the land, you'll find many Americans with STEM backgrounds, who'd left the tech sector for finance, health care, real estate, management consulting, and other less offshorable (plus downwardly mobile) activities during the span of their early careers. The reality of the situation is that if STEM compensations were like physician assistants, while attempting to maintain a high level of employment, (w/o continuous layoffs) we would never have created this post-STEM diaspora. Realize, many STEM grads are smart, and the expression, 'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.' applies here.
31   drB6   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 21, 7:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Rin says
applied chemistry/chemical engineering

Same as me, only I have not yet been outsourced from my faculty position.
Until 2007 or so I encouraged students to go into chemistry/chem E as jobs were stable and relatively plentiful. Now, not so much because if they are lucky, they can expected to be fired at 50 (if unlucky, then 3 years after being hired). Having said that, since we are on Gulf Coast, ChemE is still a pretty good and lucrative occupation. They can not outsource oil refineries that easily.

Health professions are good for now, but I think they will crash and burn soon because medical price increases are simply too high. "Medical tourism" will kill dental, ophthalmology, etc.
32   Rin   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 21, 8:06am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

drB6 says
Health professions are good for now, but I think they will crash and burn soon because medical price increases are simply too high. "Medical tourism" will kill dental, ophthalmology, etc.


If I remember my earlier years, this was something which STEM students would tell each other, to make themselves feel good whenever there's a layoff round.

In reality, medical tourism will eliminate the $500K/yr surgeons and anesthesiologists.

For a PA, going from let's say a perky $115K/yr down to perhaps, $80K/yr, is not the end of the world. And Urgent Care clinics are in greater demand and the need for locally provided internal medicine is only going up.

So let's say a PA works ten years at $100K/yr, then gets booted down to $80K/yr, that's still 20 years totally $1.8M.

For a ChemE, it's 7 yrs x $75K/yr and then, the following 13 yrs from underemployment/contract work at let's say $75K/yr but only working at 8 years average, due to all the re-sizings, makes his 20 year career only $1.1M.

As an American and having to do it over again, I'd choose the PA route, if I didn't nail the MCAT.
33   Booger   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 21, 8:30am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says
There won't be much job growth in a profession where you can move products almost instantly across frontiers
.

That is what tariffs are for.
34   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 21, 11:10am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

ThreeBays says
We need to stop outsource houses from using most of the H1Bs, and keep H1Bs for jobs that really need qualified people that aren't available.

There are not millions of Americans ready to take tech jobs. Tech industry is adding nearly 200,000 jobs per year. US is producing only ~8k EE and 13k CS engineering non-foreign grads a year.


I agree, but my point is that an awful amount of those H1B jobs do not actually require a CS or EE degree at all.

Seriously, most H1B's seem to be jobs where someone clicks around on a website making sure everything looks OK.

Anyway, making a $120K minimum floor for an H1B job would require employers to be more careful about displacing Americans.
35   ThreeBays   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 21, 11:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
ThreeBays says
We need to stop outsource houses from using most of the H1Bs, and keep H1Bs for jobs that really need qualified people that aren't available.

There are not millions of Americans ready to take tech jobs. Tech industry is adding nearly 200,000 jobs per year. US is producing only ~8k EE and 13k CS engineering non-foreign grads a year.


I agree, but my point is that an awful amount of those H1B jobs do not actually require a CS or EE degree at all.

Seriously, most H1B's seem to be jobs where someone clicks around on a website making sure everything looks OK.

Anyway, making a $120K minimum floor for an H1B job would require employers to be more careful about displacing Americans.


Agreed. QA is usually done by non-salaried employees at places I've worked earning minimal pay, so having H1B workers do that work is... dumb.
36   HeadSet   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 21, 6:05pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Unions are the only thing I ever seen stop this

Hard to see your point here when today's Unions are pro illegal immigration.
37   anotheraccount   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 21, 6:15pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

ThreeBays says
Tech industry is adding nearly 200,000 jobs per year. US is producing only ~8k EE and 13k CS engineering non-foreign grads a year.


Tech industry is not adding 200K jobs that require CS or EE degrees. Your typical big tech company such as Microsoft is at least 50% sales and operations.

Apple -60K engineers max
Facebook - 15K engineers max
Microsoft - 60k engineers max
Google -35K engineers max

That's still less than 200K. So this 200k a year number is fake.
38   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Apr 21, 6:21pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

HeadSet says
Unions are the only thing I ever seen stop this

Hard to see your point here when today's Unions are pro illegal immigration.



Yah I absolutely hate that part of my own union. The top brass are all “si, se puede” and stuff, “irregardless” of the fact that illegals are union buster scabs. Most of the rank and file agree with me that illegal immigration is a problem. With exception that we have a ton of Latino workers who often have pro-Latino stances “irregardless” of the fact that new illegals threaten their own jobs.
39   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 21, 6:45pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
Anyway, making a $120K minimum floor for an H1B job would require employers to be more careful about displacing Americans.


Require advertising for 90 days on Monster, Dice, or a major English-Language US publication (ie not "Laotian News" circulation 10,000).
Job must be published another 30 days with full salary information.
Company must prove to Dept of Labor they've offered the Median Wage and received NO applications.
If they've received applications, under penalty of perjury, show why each individual was unqualified.
Put up $20,000 Visa Fee.
Under penalty of Perjury, send the application of the foreigner, whose qualifications must be SUPERIOR to those they rejected.
H1-B recipient, must pay $150 for a nationally-recognized test for each claimed qualification and pass (ie Exchange Server - the same Test given to those seeking MS credentials. Not some fly-by night bullshit fake company that passes everybody who takes their 'test'. IE Linux Foundation, Not John Galt Fucks Borders LLC of SFBA).
Not allowed for Entry Level Positions, at least 6 years combined education/experience.
Pay Unemployment.
Only companies using the H1B can apply and use the H1B. Consulting companies are forbidden the H1B entirely. Only in-house work.




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