patrick.net

Reality says

Wealth is not a zero-sum blob that moves from one place to another. Wealth is generated through division of labor enabled by free market mutually willing exchanges. Coercions would only serve to destroy wealth: none of the jack-booted thugs at the tariff collection point would work for free!

Funny that the 10,000,000 manufacturing jobs lost in the USA has helped cause a depression, while the 10,000,000 manufacturing jobs gained in China has resulted in a boom -- and transfer of wealth.

If it isn't clear to you, let me explain. Free Trade is not Free. It only benefits international corporations, while hurting or benefiting target nations, based upon their intrinsic cost of doing business.

The standard of living that America achieved was/is the envy of much of the world. To say that we should capitulate our manufacturing base so that a few International Corporations and Foreign Countries can profit at the expense of the American Citizen is just about the most foolish idea I can think of.

The fact is that technology keeps adding efficiency and if we are to be honest the number of "ditch diggers" the US needs is far less relative to the total workforce. Is there such a thing as an office receptionist anymore? If so, are they more efficient than the computer phone tree? Does the computer call in sick, demand health benefits or file a harassment suit through a no merit attorney? The unions have voted themselves raises and benefits with no relation to performance that are unsustainable. Upper management has created golden parachutes with no relation to performance. The voters want all the free cheese available. God forbid someone tell the truth about what is happening and they are tar and feathered into 15 second soundbites the "sheeple" base their decisions on.

CitizenNYC,

Manufacturing jobs are commodidized. China has them for now. Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore had those jobs after the US then "lost" them to China; likewise, Vietnam, India and soon Egypt + the entire "middeast spring" will take the same "jobs" from the China in the near future.

Assembly line manufacturing is more mind-numbing than burger flipping. At least in burger flipping, one gets to take orders and deliver food directly to the customer. Burger flippers do not engage in widespread suicide attempts on the employers' premise, like some of the Chinese contract manufacturing facilities face. Why would anyone want to pay ridiculously expensive jack booted thugs to enforce the revival burger flipping jobs and worse?

The US is suffering from a depression not because of the availability of cheap goods, but due to regulations and taxation schemes (including mortgage, which is a tax on living) that predicated upon the super fast economic growth that early phases of global free trade provided. Just like the internet, cheaper sources like Amazon and Ebay put many local bookstores and mom-pop shops out of business . . . they even had a bubble in their stock valuation and bankrupted many investors who went on margin (i.e. unserviceable loans that had been set up at optimistic times). The solution is not to ban internet and ban international trade, but liquidate bad debts now that the earlier growth projections have been found to be too rosy. The real sustained growth rate, even with the wonders of new ways of doing business, is simply not as fantastic when matured as it was during early adoption period. All the taxes (including mortgage and margin loans) constructed based on early adoption period growth rate simply can not be serviced.

Having cheap goods is the only silver lining in a depression. To destroy or ban that would lead to drastic decline in standards of living, just like the government did in the 1930's, dumping milk into the ocean and slaughtering animals to be burned and buried, all in an attempt to artificially jack up prices. The result was mass starvation. You can not successfully run an economy by having jack-booted thugs enforcing price levels at gun point. The purpose of any production is consumption. Restricting trade directly reduces what's available for consumption, and the cost of maintaining the jackboots is even more expensive, in terms of both economics and civil liberty.

We could have created a CCC for rehabing homes vs. having the banks bulldoze, sadly solutions are usually pretty simple. Last I checked the trend was still laziness and greed. Until that changes, nothing will change. So, what do we do?, we wait, and we wonder.

bmwman91 says

Don't even get me started on BMW parts made in China. I have owned & maintained my '91 3 series for over a decade now. I have seen a marked decrease in quality in the last couple of years as Chinese made junk has gotten into the supply system.

The automotive industry stopped providing products built in corporate headquarter home countries a long time ago. My Toyota truck is about 65% American made. The Tundra is currently the "Most American" truck you can buy and is around 80-85% domestic content. I recently looked at a new Chevy Cruze recently and the car was full of parts from all over the place. They make BMWs in South Carolina. I replaced the water pump on my truck 6 years ago. The unit was made in China. So far its held up fine. In fact, the new clutch, flywheel, and master cylinder I installed a year and a half ago was also made in China. I felt funny buying these but they were a LOT cheaper than the factory unit. The truck had 235,000 miles at that point so I didn't feel like blowing lots of money. So far so good.

Interestingly enough the current Buick Lacrosse is a perfect example of global corporate enterprise. The car's exterior design was done at the Detroit studio by a younger guy. The interior was designed in China. Why there? Because unlike in the US, Buick is a highly regarded, desirable brand in China and its one of the best selling brands there. The reason is because Buicks have been marketed as upscale for years there. There was a lot of emphasis placed on the interiors because in many cases the owner of the car would get driven around. The owner would sit in the back. As a result GM put a lot of effort in making the interiors of their Chinese spec models upscale. Some have fold down tables in the back- like you would see in a Rolls or something. Hence why the Shanghai studio was chosen to do the interior design because it made sense. The drivetrain is a German design. It was also tested on the track in Germany. The car is built in the US. Its all interesting to me.

Read the book "The world is flat" by Friedman. America has become a service economy. Plain and simple. Cheaper prices(aka: wal-mart effect) has replaced american mfg jobs. New economic norms are replacing older ones. The question is: what are they? Higher unemployment? Lower GDP? Let's hope these new norms are only temporary.

I think we should look to the German model. Their workers are the highest paid and they are busy. It means a more socalized economy, but it also means that everyone has a high standard of living.

How do they do it? Well they did not do it by dismanteling the government, which seems to be the Republican plan, that the Democrats are passively accepting.

In fact its the opposite. The Germans have achieved their sucess thru careful management, and lots of collective decision making. Like add back the unions, and interested community members, and the various governments working together. Its only when you have a collective decision making process are everyone's best interests are taken care of. It ends up being in fact a more true open and "free" market, than the one we currently have. Oh yes and lets not forget a more successful one too.

In comparison the American model seems to have a lopsided decision making process, where only the ultra wealthy are taken care of at everyone else's expense, since they are the only ones involved in the decision making process, (not free at all). You should expect impoverishing results.

This is not the way a great and wealthy country is made, this is the way you get a bannana republic. A despot at the top of the heap, and a few wealthy hangers on and everyone else treated like slaves.

I recently launched an aftermarket video game accessory. When I came up with the idea for the product, all roads led to China for manufacturing. 99% of the products in this category are Chinese made.

There are 6 separate individual American manufacturers who all contribute to my product, 5 of which are here in Southern California (endangered species to say the least). The product helps support and maintain over 250 American manufacturing jobs. I felt is was more important to benefit these jobs and plant the US flag on the shelves than it was to put a little more $ in my pocket.

Liberal or conservative, these arguments/discussions are exactly what the string pullers intend to keep us occupied with. At what point do we stop, separate ourselves from a false media seeking to drive our own selfish ambitions, and consider our neighbors?

There is no shortage of people who are willing and able to identify any number of problems. You can hear them running their mouths all day on Fox News or MSNBC. We shouldn't be relying on information from the cronies on either side of a corrupt fence. They are like doctors prescribing treatments that are never meant to actually cure the underlying issue, but rather keep you hooked.

The government is not going to solve our problems and neither will large corporations free from government constraints. We have to stop looking at the overwhelming problems facing this nation and begin to address our immediate situations. Figure out how and where you can begin to sacrifice in order to benefit those with whom you have direct contact.

Also, if you own a Kinect for Xbox 360, check out PRITECT on Amazon. Support an American made product and help us change the tide in this market category.

Bernard,

Read up on the real definition of "Fascism" (not to be confused with the dumbed down cartoonism Nazism). Yes, lots of management and collective decision making.

For what it's worth, Germans still have a lower standards of living than Americans, and more importantly, lower standards of living than almost all their Western European neighbors. If not for the FED's bailout in 2008-09, Deutchbank, Dressdner, BMW, Mercedes and VW would all be bankrupt. The big German banks may still go bankrupt; that's why they are lobbying for the bailout of borrowers to whom they should never have lent money.

Not sure why this turned into politics. The truth of matter is that we're a country that functions via capitalism. The classic saying is that Capitalism is creative destruction. Its just that everyone tries to catch a little money on its way down.

Neither party is right in their ideology on how to handle the economy because that's all do: Spout ideological rhetoric, most of which is totally impractical.

Political meddling in economics is seldom beneficial. Most of the things you mentioned were more along the lines of social issues rather than economic ones.

The way I see it is this:

1: Democrats like the idea of using government to grow the economy.
2: Republicans think we should fully trust private enterprise to " Do the right thing"

Neither idea works. At least not long-term, which is why if one side stays in power too long the economy tends to slump into recession either because the government starts to go broke or the lack of regulations inflates a bubble.

Government is a creation of man. It is as good or bad, as the people who compose it. Who are drawn from and chosen by the general population.

The problem I see with viewing government as an automatic evil, is this demonization has only one ending, when Grover Norquist "strangles it in the bathtub". Because ultraconservatives love the imagery of killing children they think are defective.

Anyhow, government has it's job to do, and when we run it right, it's a levelling force that counters the natural anarchy that would rule otherwise. Would you rather for example that we let disputes resolve on their own by vendetta and clan warfare like Hatfields & McCoys? No we set up neutral agencies that dispense something approximating justice, in this way avoiding anarchy and needless additional suffering.

The entire USA mentality is so infested with the idea that NOTHING can ever be done properly by government that it's difficult to even have a reasonable discussion about it. Reagan and his "fellow travelers" did such a good job of propagandizing this notion that government should either die or do nothing, that even when faced with PLAIN EVIDENCE that free markets are not efficient and need regulation, proponents prefer to ignore it. Alan Greenspan used to say "fraud doesn't exist" as a crime, and that all we needed to do was stay out of the way and the magic of the free markets would punish bad actors without government. Clearly this failed and he ADMITTED HIS MISTAKE saying there was "a flaw in his model" and perhaps he was wrong. Then of course he glided on into public speaking, and the adherents of deregulation who worshipped Greenspan for decades just ignore this admission of failure.

GLASS-STEAGALL WORKED!

How's that for government meddling in economics. It brought us decades of stability and slow-growing prosperity. Pretty heavy-handed meddling too, you may grow this big and no bigger, you must have this capital reserve, you may not merge disparate banking interests under one roof.

Then the financiers decided they didn't need safety valves and brakes on our train, and in a few short years KABLOOEY a train wreck.

Vincente,

There is a huge difference between government vs. private sector decisions: if you don't like a particular vendor's goods/service, you can shop elsewhere. The same is not true for government: you have to pay tax to fund the programs regardless whether you know a better solution. Seeing that change and progress is constant in this universe, whatever the government legislates into the stone tablet is bound to be obsolete in short order. People often confuse "anarchy" with "chaos." A state of anarchy exists whenever you are not forced by government against your own will, like in your own private bedroom. Chaos is a whole different ball game. A government that is too intrusive actually creates chaos. That which rules the least rules the best.

Glass-Steagal would not be necessary if not for central banking and fiat money laws that guarantee bailouts for insiders. The TBTF institutions launching themselves into wild gambling binges was not a free market failure but a government failure: those institutions are the real animators/controllers of the government . . . or at least those who control those institutions are also the ones who control the governments for their own benefits. Free market would not have provided the bailouts. The wild gamblers would have taken their own just desserts. Glass-Steagal is simply a salve to limit the scope of that "government put" transferring gambling losses to the public. The cost of G-S is financial stagnation . . . simply because the government bureaucrats do not know in advance what financial schemes work and when. Entreprenuers have to be allowed to take chances and at their own risks.

Reality says

Glass-Steagal would not be necessary if not for central banking and fiat money laws that guarantee bailouts for insiders.

Excuse me "Reality", when was Glass-Steagall enacted? Weren't we on a "real money" standard when that started? Oh yes, always "fiat money" in some way to blame even when not accurate it's a reliable whipping boy. Glass-Steagall WORKED and worked brilliantly and that's why fraudsters and banksters hated it. It got in the way of the fraud and wealth extraction.

We had numerous quite serious depressions prior to the "Great Depression" that name was even recycled from an earlier one. Happened frequently and were devastating, to the point something had to be done. And it was.

I'm going to not address the rest of your "free market" diatribe, because it's so demonstrably unproven and unprovable. Zealots of unregulated "free markets" reminds me a lot of Soviets, the last 5 Year Plan didn't work so let's try it again but sterner, and it'll work this time, it'll all just regulate itself you watch. Glass-Steagall WORKED and worked for a LONG LONG time. So long that all the people who remembered why we needed it, were long dead. Thus it could be tossed away by ignorant youngsters enthralled over "financial innovation". Saint Alan Greenspan said clearly he could keep his cops in the donut shop since the miracle of the markets would handle and ferret out fraud on it's own for it's own preservation and long-term good. Clearly this did not happen it was one big criminal circle jerk. YOU got handed the soggy biscuit. Eat up!

Entreprenuers have to be allowed to take chances and at their own risks.

Let's remove all regulations and let the banks gobble each other up until we have one GIANT bank which is "too big to fail". Then, let's let it fail and see what happens. What great fun! Rather you try that experiment on your own country and economy, not on mine thanks.

Vicente wrote:"Excuse me "Reality", when was Glass-Steagall enacted? Weren't we on a "real money" standard when that started?"

No. The Federal Reserve was put in place in 1913 with Federal Reserve Act. Glass-Steagall came in 1933, 20 years after the Federal Reserve wildly inflated the Great War bubble then the late 1920's stock market bubble and Florida land speculation bubble.

Glass-Steagall is mathematically unenforceable under a real sound money system: the government wouldn't have the specie money to bail out all the depositors. The redemption promise had to be voided sooner or later when the government promises to bail out all depositors (G-S) or to bail out all speculators (Federal Reserve Act, as "lender of last resort"). The Great War starting in 1914 only put in a few years of delay (when redemption was suspended in all western countries) . . . the Madoff-like Ponzi scheme took only the first major bubble (the 1920's) to reveal itself to be a scam. It's mathematically impossible to have a buyer-of-last-resort and honest specie redemption promise at the same time.

Reality says

No. The Federal Reserve was put in place in 1913 with Federal Reserve Act. Glass-Steagall came in 1933, 20 years after the Federal Reserve wildly inflated the Great War bubble then the late 1920's stock market bubble and Florida land speculation bubble.

No, blah unrelated blah I hate the Fed blah.

Perhaps you are going by some other definition of fiat money.

Most of the people I encounter, start talking about GOLD, which we were still on the gold standard in that era. Perhaps you are taking the more expansive "any government issued paper currency as legal tender" which was the case as far back the Articles of Confederation. Man the Illuminati conspiracy inside our government Star Chambers to wreck the country with fiat money goes all the way back to the Founders. Tricky devils! Perhaps Obama time travelled with Ponzi that far back. They really do push the poor financiers around like pawns don't they.

Vicente,

I'm talking about intelligent analysis, not blah blah or short attention span or gullibility.

How was unlimited bail out of all depositors possible when the government didn't have unlimited supply of gold? How was bail out of investors as buyer-of-last-resort possible? The government obviously had much less gold than the amount needed to honor the specie pledge and the bailout promises at the same time.

Madoff's scheme was a Ponzi scheme long before he was caught in a run-on-the-bank, by about 20 years, about the same duration from 1913 to 1933/34.

What "Illuminati" are you talking about?

Reality,

The Illuminati behind the centuries-long government manipulation required of course.

Duh!

It could not possibly be the case that financiers and bankers could wreck an economy. Even if they could, they are just too nice.

Vicente says

We had numerous quite serious depressions prior to the "Great Depression" that name was even recycled from an earlier one. Happened frequently and were devastating, to the point something had to be done. And it was.

The so-called "solution" actually made it far worse than any previous "depressions"/"recessions." Recessions are actually the free market's way of cleansing malinvestments, just like high body temperature is the human immune system's response to bad germs. Suppressing the fever without addressing the underlying disease can be fatal. The cure is worse than disease.

It's ironic you should compare free market advocacy to Soviet-style central planning. The central bank in our system is soviet-style central planning: central planning for the money supply and hence the economy as a whole. Alan Greenspan's career illustrates the axiom "power corrupts."

"Let's remove all regulations and let the banks gobble each other up until we have one GIANT bank which is "too big to fail". Then, let's let it fail and see what happens."

First of all, in a free market place, banks wouldn't be able to gobble each other up without failing first on their way to "world domination." Smaller banks with intimate local knowledge are simply more efficient in risk assessment than bureaucratic behemoth when things turn. Things do turn as new discoveries and new technology often render old capital investment obsolete! That's how free market economies progress: by creative destruction destroying incumbent big money capitalists who have grown too fat and banks too dumb and too fat to avoid lending to them. The alternative is soviet-style stagnation making 1940's cars in the 1980's.

Speaking of consolidation, the central bank has in fact created the one GIANT bank, it's called the Federal Reserve, with monopoly on mismanaging our money supply, just like soviet bureaucrats used to enjoy mismanaging their economy while doling out feudalistic privileges to the apparachik.

"Rather you try that experiment on your own country and economy, not on mine thanks."

Central Banking and central planning is an experiment, and a failed one at that. It has failed every single time it's been tried in human history, ever since the ancient times.

Vicente says

Reality,

The Illuminati behind the centuries-long government manipulation required of course.

Duh!

It could not possibly be the case that financiers and bankers could wreck an economy. Even if they could, they are just too nice.

Financiers and bankers routinely wreck economy through their control of the government. Financiers and bankers own the governments. How else do you explain why Obama, a Democrat after all, was threatening to cut off social security checks instead of cutting off the interest payment to financiers and bankers first?

Governments are essentially tax farmers working for financiers and bankers who demand a cut on the economy in the form of interest payment. Government regulations do not serve to restrain financiers or bankers, but serve primarily to reinforce the cartel and keep out would be competition.

Ill keep it short. Where are MERCEDES made? In GERMANY right? Thats right. And they will ALWAYS BE made IN Germany. Where are "american" cars made???? Mexico and Canada. Odd that Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are MADE IN THE USA. I wonder for how long.

I agree government is ALWAYS to blame.

We are all however just pawns in bigger hands.

Look on your currency:

Reality says

Governments are essentially tax farmers working for financiers and bankers who demand a cut on the economy in the form of interest payment. Government regulations do not serve to restrain financiers or bankers, but serve primarily to reinforce the cartel and keep out would be competition.

OK you got me there. I surrender sir.

However government can regulate and has done so in past. Particularly bold leaders and/or voters have whacked the banker jungle back. Sure it grows back, but you keep whacking and next thing you know you're raising cattle on former rainforest. OK not my preferred imagery but still.

Glass-Steagall IMO actually worked. I'm not sure we can put the genie back in the bottle, but trying it would be a hoot.

BEN! Glad to see you are still around ole bean. You need to watch yourself in public though this is disgraceful for a man of your station:

Drunken Ben Bernanke Tells Everyone At Neighborhood Bar How Screwed U.S. Economy Really Is

Bernard says

I think we should look to the German model. Their workers are the highest paid and they are busy. It means a more socalized economy, but it also means that everyone has a high standard of living.
How do they do it? Well they did not do it by dismanteling the government, which seems to be the Republican plan, that the Democrats are passively accepting.

They did it by being a major exporter. Obama-nomics isn't going to make the US a major exporter.

Vicente says

OK you got me there. I surrender sir.

However government can regulate and has done so in past. Particularly bold leaders and/or voters have whacked the banker jungle back. Sure it grows back, but you keep whacking and next thing you know you're raising cattle on former rainforest. OK not my preferred imagery but still.

Glass-Steagall IMO actually worked. I'm not sure we can put the genie back in the bottle, but trying it would be a hoot.

BEN! Glad to see you are still around ole bean. You need to watch yourself in public though this is disgraceful for a man of your station:

Funny photo.

As for wacking, the JFK experience illustrated who does the wackign and whom gets wacked, when it comes to wacking.

Liberty and freedom do not flow from high above doled out by a sagacious leader. Sagacious leaders who managed to get up there either get corrupted or get wacked. Power nexus do not dole out liberty any more than the ring to rule all rings can be used for good.

Liberty and freedom thrive when the nexus of power is reduced.

Reality says

As for wacking, the JFK experience illustrated who does the wackign and whom gets wacked, when it comes to wacking.

You're a JFK conspiracy nutter, got it.

Yes they did it by being a major exporter, but how do they remain a major exporter, when their wages are the highest? By creating an environment where people are working together. Its what is not happening here in the US. It is not cheaper in the long run to ship our industry to China. It may profit the people at the very top quite handsomely in the shorter run. But in the long run everyone is much worse off.

If you've lived in Europe you would know that the Germans have a very high standard of living. Tri tip is more expensive, but you pay less for housing. You're taxes at a middle class level are not much higher than we pay here in CA, and for poorer people are much less. But they get services for their taxes, which we don't get here. Our tax dollars are squandared on a military industrial complex we dont need, and a prison industrial complex that hobbles the poor. Oh yes and lets not forget Both of George Bush's wars.

Needless to say Germans look at America with a little justifiable contempt these days. They may not say it directly, but you can feel it. Because they can see what is going on here in the US, and they'd never allow that to happen over there. Lets face it we've been sold down the river by the Reagan republican agenda. And the current depression we are in is a result of this short sighted agenda. And even when there is a political will to change the game back towards a more egalitarian model, its going to take a long time to do its not going to happen over night. So eat hearty cause you're gonna be pickin that cotton all day long.

night0wl says

We still have the following high end industries:
1) Aircraft manufacturing (Boeing)
2) Medical devices (GE Healthcare)
3) Biotech R&D
4) Energy Turbines (Gas, Oil, & Wind)
5) Some appliance manufacturing.
Ok, so I used to work at GE...but I remember we were still manufacturing in the states. My job was to provide ERP systems for those facilities.

Its not like we have a global monoploy in any of these industries. For every US mfg there are a couple Asian/Euro mfg to compete with. Would that ERP system be SAP by any chance.

Strangewalk says

millenium generation

The MGs are hooked on their Facebook, Iphones, and Zynga crap, unable to comprehend real industries that matter in Silicon Valley... Semi, Storage, Servers and Software.

Check out this link from Democracy Now! Not only is the corporatocracy outsourcing to China for cheap labor; they even get cheaper labor ($0.20 an hour) using the huge domestic prison population to make all kinds of stuff. It makes sense now why they put so many people in prison for minor offenses.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/8/5/new_expos_tracks_alec_private_prison

proudtobegenx says

Democracy Now!

Thats a Great Fuck Head Liberal TV program!

Reminds me of how the liberals managed to pretty much destroy our economy back in the 70s with their policies. Result ? The Japanese and Europeans managed to replace our industries.

Manufacturing also produces a multi-level knowledge base.
A society that makes things shares all the spinoffs of research, development, invention, not to mention of course, the total amount of employment created by production.
I think a society loses not only financially, but also a lot of pride when they stop the process of creating truly home-grown brands.
Historically, Spain went down the tubes (in spite of all the New World's stolen wealth) when they blew it all on fantasies and enchantments back in the 16th century, figuring they could just buy everything from someone else.
They wound up making nothing (except bulls.)

Interesting - how this affects particularly, the middle class.
Perhaps a by-product of this development is that weird notion that middle-class was "supposed" to become truly white-collar...just sitting in a cubicle and poking at a keypad.
God forbid we wear grease-stained blue collars anymore.
But at one time, that was the real backbone of the economy.

Germany has avoided this mistake, largely because its workers can afford to pay domestic prices (what a novel concept) - and has of course, also maintained its manufacturing knowledge base.
What I can't figure out, is how a whole nation swallowed the idea that this knowledge base wasn't important, anymore?
But then...that kind of thinking fits in perfectly with so much of what has warped our economy out of shape. Wealth isn't created anymore, just intercepted.
Just like that Catcher in the Rye, the Big Wall Street Mitt grabs every hopeful attempt....

j.merzetti says

Historically, Spain went down the tubes (in spite of all the New World's stolen wealth) when they blew it all on fantasies and enchantments back in the 16th century, figuring they could just buy everything from someone else.
They wound up making nothing (except bulls.)

BINGO. The Elites and Middle Classes in Spain were only interested in obtaining land in order to live the life of a Nobleman. They imported everything from Holland, Italy, etc with their New World Gold and Silver. Eventually the economy was hollowed out as no investment or tariff was there to advance or protect domestic industry. Same shit happened in Mexico.

Wherever policies that emphasize landed wealth and unearned income trump an industrial policy based on production, you see a few very rich but many poor people.

China has stiff tariffs, as does Malaysia, South Korea, Japan and all the current or former Asian Tigers.

Unjailed Traitors have a hard time finding a free trade country that developed from the 3rd world that is larger than a single city in a strategic location by highly trafficked waterway. That is, it doesn't work for "real" countries.

thomas.wong1986 says

We "Started" to lose in mfg long before RR came to office.

Right around the time we embraced "Free Trade" in the early-mid 70s after nearly 200 years of robust tariffs.

thomas.wong1986 says

We "Started" to lose in mfg long before RR came to office.

Indeed. It first started with the electronics industry. In 1967 the US made something like over 65% of the electronics sold internationally. In the 30's-50's RCA was one of the biggest corporations on earth. As mentioned before, I collect vintage tube powered radios. ALL of them were made in the US. So too is basically everything else you can think of: appliances, toasters, TV sets, clothes, shoes, and light bulbs to name a few.

We lost our electronics industry primarily due to cheap Japanese products. Just like it is now, US companies either couldn't compete with cheaper Japanese goods or they simply shut down their factories and shipped the work overseas. We basically haven't been in the consumer electronics biz for the better part of 40 years.

You've got to remember that by the time Reagan got elected the Japanese car industry was wiping the floor. Their cars were 200% better than anything Detroit spewed out. I distinctly recall how truly awful my Dad's 82 Buick Riviera was. That thing was in the shop more than it was on the road. The Camry we replaced it with ran forever with no problems.

I think there are some good stories out there. GM and Ford are now in my opinion making some really good products. GM is now back to being No.1. They both make competitive small cars that people- especially people in urban areas- want to buy.

To be honest I make it a point to not buy anything new if I can help it. Almost all new items are junk- plain and simple. Today I bought a 60's vintage Osterizer blender. Its built like a tank, weighs a ton and is totally plated in chrome. Its built like things were typically built like. It makes anything made today- even the "fancy" brands look like disposable crap. And sadly, that's about the only way you can buy American made anymore.

thunderlips11 says

Right around the time we embraced "Free Trade" in the early-mid 70s after nearly 200 years of robust tariffs.

That's odd, I seem to remember NAFTA being signed by Bill Clinton in the 90's. Perhaps you are talking about GATT which the US initiated and pushed hard for. That was 1947. What "Free Trade" agreements were made in the 70's?

This can be quite a topic.

We're always going to have some manufacturing because of a number of factors. Proximity, dependency and of course preference.

When I worked in retail it was like the OP said but I worked for the same things but later on. Many goods there are made in China and other countries. When I worked for a work clothing company there was really no assures that a product came from anywhere. If you wanted US made it would take a large order and it would have to be manually picked from the source and take much longer.

Make no mistake we can make anything in the USA. But it comes with a price. Everything we want to add onto the price of manufacturing gets added into the cost of selling it. Health insurance for employees, ergonomics for employees, environmental friendly packaging, community relations etc. It's like the concept of an environmentally friendly cleaner. Look at what is the primary vs the secondary. We ask for too much from some businesses these days.

And of course the consumer generally wants things dirt cheap.

The reasons why other countries can be cheaper are multifold. To use China as an example it is a unitary state. There is no local/state or provincial government to deal with (UK is the same way) It makes it simple once you enter the country but at the same point it can also mean that other areas of the country might not be cheaper. In the USA laws vary wildly on the state..gambling and same sex marriage come to mind immediately.
China and Taiwan also have the Hukou system which is weird to say the least
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system
it is attempting to prevent massive influxes of unemployed people to cities (picture grapes of wrath). The permit system can actually prevent people from sending their children to school in areas they work. In a sense one might argue that they are illegal within the own country and thus the wages are lower. In looking at the currency some argue that it is fixed but at the same point when we took ourselves off the gold standard it contributed highly to the OPEC embargo.

It should be noted that much of what is made is not really designed in those countries. There is no Ivy league in Asia. The Asian way of teaching predominantly is instruction. Asking a teacher/professor a question or implying something is wrong is unheard of.

Sometimes inventors have odd ideas of their inventions. Thomas Edison supposedly hated the idea that the phonographic record would be used for music. He wanted it to be used to have audio books for the blind and to teach people foreign languages. But the money in it was in the music and that is what it is known for.

Countries generally HAVE to make goods at first because they might not have the method or means to buy goods. Heck you start with a bartering system then establish the concept of credit. Much of the gains that the developing world is making are marginal. By that I mean it is a one time gain. A family only needs one fridge, one washer, one drier, one microwave etc. The gains of more are less the more that they have.

Once an economy develops more and more actually consumption can go down. I would say the most dependable consumption is food followed by energy and then maybe followed by clothing.

"Today I bought a 60's vintage Osterizer blender. Its built like a tank, weighs a ton and is totally plated in chrome. Its built like things were typically built like. It makes anything made today- even the "fancy" brands look like disposable crap"

But that is also a paradox. If you make products that last forever then you aren't going to sell them again to the same customers. If you make products that break down you STILL aren't going to get the same customers since the quality was poor.

The problem with mass production of any good is that the more people have that given item the less it is worth. Microwaves at one point were a metric for how developed a country was. Now they are so cheap people in public housing have one.

The Heritage Foundation issued a paper that illustrates what amenities that poor people have vs those better off
www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/08/how-poor-are-americas-poor-examining-the-plague-of-poverty-in-america
The objective isn't so much to illustrate that people are not "poor" but that our standard for "poor" is higher than most of the planet.

The other thing to keep in mind about manufacturing is that factory work is not always that sophisticated. Some honestly think those laid off from auto plants were somehow mechanics...they aren't. I had a great aunt that put together spark plugs decades ago (50's and 60s). Same action every 15 or so seconds..every day is the same..every week is the same..every month is the same. Stable work but there is no variance. I have a grandmother that worked for a beer company (go for the gusto!) again same thing..no variance (except the smell from when bottles cracked and that it was amplified in the summer)

Some of the reasons why we miss manufacturing is that at the time it did not appear to be that sophisticated and did not require (at first) standards. On the job training was enough. Now manufacturing is much more automated and sophisticated than before.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41349653/ns/business-us_business/t/despite-chinas-might-us-factories-maintain-edge/#.Tj6pXSwQ-Sw

Bah the point of heritage foundation is to paper over a huge and worsening wealth gap and propagandize poor to accept their place.

Regarding Spain, don't forget they spent a big bulk of their ill gotten gains from the cieglo del oro, on an ideological war called the Spanish inquisition.

Reminds me of Empire day in "The meaning of Life" To commemorate all those brave souls who selflessly gave their lives to help keep China British.

Also reminds me a little of both of George Bush's wars. I mean since we're going to loose them anyway, and I don't think the point was ever to win. Coulden't we just cut our costs by simply mugging everybody in the streets by some jackbooted fedral thugs and then giving the loot to Blackwater, and Haliburton. Saves those poor Iraqi's from getting shot and raped by the USMC. Put the army where it belongs, on the streets of America.