patrick.net

robertoaribas says

Big mountain out of small molehill…

Exactly. You won't get a free house because someone didn't file the paperwork correctly.

News flash!

BofA and GMAC lift foreclosure freezes and restart home seizures
Bank of America announced that it has found no significant issues with documentation on more than 100,000 foreclosure actions, and it has lifted its moratorium. GMAC Mortgage announced that it also will move forward with foreclosures. The moves are expected to encourage other lenders to forgo their foreclosure freezes.

PolishKnight says

John asks: “What does the Tea Party have to do with any of this.”
Apparently, Gary already has a bad taste in his mouth about the November elections and they aren’t even here yet.
For the record, I do blame most of the borrowers. Not because they tried to buy more house than they could afford but rather something worse: They bought too LITTLE of a house they could afford betting that prices would rise forever. They thought they could participate in a cartel to exploit future buyers.
Ironically, this democratizes the capitalist system. To paraphrase JFK, we’re all capitalists now! Well, sort of. The voters want the state to protect themselves at the expense of the buyer.
And that’s what socialism winds up being too: Cronies at the top cash out for the big bucks with a set of special interest groups hoping to cash in (but wind up being left behind) and using the power of the state to try to milk a minority of people (seemingly) to keep the system going.
With so many different special interest entitlement lobbying groups, (or “civil rights” organizations) all competing for a piece of the pie, it just becomes a free-for-all tragedy of the commons.
You know what? Considering the lack of concern (or respect) the average socialist has for me as a human being, I could care less if all their tax money goes to the bankers, even Democrat voting bankers, rather than green energy, public transportation, free healthcare, etc. To hell with ‘em. Enjoy your “Swedish” paradise!

Your misplaced thinking is debunked here: http://livinglies.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/debunking-blaming-the-borrowers/

This entire episode was a function of a ponzi banking and securitization scheme that required such easy money that a homeless person "owned" 4 houses in Florida.

thomas.wong1986 says

News flash!
BofA and GMAC lift foreclosure freezes and restart home seizures

Bank of America announced that it has found no significant issues with documentation on more than 100,000 foreclosure actions, and it has lifted its moratorium. GMAC Mortgage announced that it also will move forward with foreclosures. The moves are expected to encourage other lenders to forgo their foreclosure freezes.

The war is not over.

robertoaribas says

20 pages of rambling non sense, and not one person with the ability to use google, find MERS website, and pull up a couple of examples. EVERY loan in MERS portfolio says exactly where the payment goes to.
The question isn’t that nobody knows who owns the mortgage; the problem isn’t that you are paying the wrong people. In fact, the entire issue, is simply that MERS didn’t bother to file notarized documents in person in the several thousand courthouses across America to record who had purchased the loan.
Big mountain out of small molehill…
Resume rambling lunacy on this thread in 3, 2, 1…

Lol, the NY Fed is suing BAC. Lolololol. Swine suing swine.

GaryA says: "This entire episode was a function of a ponzi banking and securitization scheme that required such easy money that a homeless person “owned” 4 houses in Florida."

So a single homeless person buying 4 houses caused the whole thing including the Bank of Iceland to go under? He's a weapon of mass destruction! :-)

I agree that easy money helped cause the problem (note that it was democrats such as Barney Frank that were demanding the banks and the GSE's buy up bad loans for a racist minority loan agenda...) but I won't say it was "entire"ly due to that.

As we're currently seeing in the higher priced homes, it's not just the ultra-poor sub-primers involved in a run up on real estate but many well-to-do middle and upper class buyers as well who thought prices were going to go up forever.

Landru3000 claims: "The tea baggers named themselves tea baggers. They were too stupid to know what that meant, and wondered why everybody was laughing at them"

This is a lie. They named themselves tea partiers after the famous revolutionary act of dumping tea from British ships into Boston harbor.

Let's put that into perspective for a moment: They're taking a very important moment in American history and slurring it into a vulgar sexual act. (I won't say it's homosexual since women can "teabag" men.)

Then they're shocked and angered, mind you, when right wingers accuse leftists of being anti-American (successfully) and they sometimes lose elections because of it.

But then again, neither of this really surprises anyone anymore. As far as leftists are concerned, there really is no Ameican history before the 1960's other than acts of white guilt (to be applied exclusively against conservatives. Nevermind FDR building concentration camps for the Japanese Americans, etc) and Europe is a paradise that they just aren't smart enough to emigrate to. I love how Kerry tried to appear more American by refusing French bottled water. As if that was going to make a difference. :-)

PolishKnight says

Landru3000 claims: [Teabaggers] were too stupid to know what that meant, and wondered why everybody was laughing at them”

This is a lie.

No, it's a fact, and there is no shortage of embarrassing proof:

Landru3000 claims: "The tea baggers are a bunch of naive people being manipulated by Fox News and Dick “Contract on America” Armey. You are being taken advantage of. The “movement” was whipped up, organized and paid for by these guys."

Let's assume for the moment... that was true. That the people who disagree with you are naive and that they need to come over to Christianity, er, Marxist leftism for their salvation.

Do you really think that telling them so like that is going to change their minds? When you see one of those holy rollers on a street corner screaming that gays are going to hell and repent now, does that help wake you up and put you on the path to righteousness, or instead dismiss their whole agenda, even the good parts, as just a religion of self-righteous crazies?

When discussing politics OR religion (and they are very closely related if not the same thing at times), I keep in mind that the arguments people make are merely dogma or placeholders for their often subconscious motivations. People often believe in a religion simply because they like the community feeling of going to a chuch and having people about them. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. SF and the Bay area is one big church, in a sense. Good for you. But don't be amazed for some reason that the "sinners" don't automatically want to convert to it.

I don't expect an automatic conversion but I do have other subtle goals in discussing politics or religion. I think it helps that I have had to train cats (yes, it is possible) and the same psychology often works with people.

So Vincente, a picture of a single person holding a button is proof that a majority of tea partiers "gave" themselves that name?

Howz your buddy Ted Kaczinski doing? Has he helped Al Gore stop global warming yet? (Granted, he is better dressed than most tossed salad eating environmentalists...)

PolishKnight says

So Vincente, a picture of a single person holding a button is proof that a majority of tea partiers “gave” themselves that name?

Oh there's more where that came from:

ANd because it's awesome:

PolishKnight says

Let’s assume for the moment… that was true. That the people who disagree with you are naive and that they need to come over to Christianity, er, Marxist leftism for their salvation.

Not the hardcore, who would follow ANY movment right off a cliff.

But maybe the impressionable lemmings who form the majority, might be a little discomfitted by the actual fact that they are working for Koch Industries, not "freedom". That they are ignorant cannon fodder for oil billionaires might not be so palatable to some. Covered nicely here:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer

I find it hilarious that for nearly 30 years TRANSPARENCY IN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS has been a drumbeat of the GOP. Now suddenly it's vanished as thoroughly as an "unperson" editted out of old Soviet photographs.

Love bombs versus Sour Balls.

Vicente, I'm stunned. Let's see here. You put up a strawman leftist cartoon and then follow it up with a comment I made (I'm flattered.) Then you try to address my observation that you're not drawing people to your cause with honey by saying that they're only a little stupid (as if that should be ok with them) and, hey, it's the "finance" issue that should make them change their mind!

Then you conclude by comparing them to the Soviets, you know, socialists hoping they don't notice that George Soros got his start by helping to throw out Jews in the street for the Nazis.

That's a basic summation of your position. (No cute cartoon though.)

In the meantime, good luck with your tirades against "the rich" while you worship those same rich when they're contributing to the cause while stuffing their pockets with corporate welfare or flying around in jets proclaiming the evils of "global warming" or "climate change."

Hahahaha!

Here's something important to keep in mind: This is YOUR church you're asking ME and others to join. Not the other way around. I'm not demanding you foot the bill for my cause since I favor limited government. It's ironic that if you get stuck paying for Iraq wars and bankers bailouts, it's because of big government you were cheerleading to feel important. Good luck with that.

I'm reminded of the time I was on the train in Philly about 20 years ago. I remember it like it was yesterday. I had on a softball jersey from a work softball game and two hot girls began to talk to me. I was immediately skeptical but... didn't chase them away. They wanted to convert me to... radical Christianity and invited me to their picnic that weekend. I didn't have anything better to do so I agreed. I did worry they might kidnap me and maybe try to feed me gruel or something so I told my landlady where I was going.

I needn't have worried. They did a "love bomb." As a sinner, I was warmly welcomed and loved and they were asking for personal things to talk about. I accomodated (don't have any secrets) and later they tried to use these to shame me into staying. The girls were kind of like bait. I laughed it off and left. It was a fascinating day.

The problem with leftism, really, is that it's so... gay. Literally. At least the beatnick chicks of the 1950's could tempt guys like me into hanging out with them.

You aren't changing my mind bucko and you are probably not half as great looking as those wierd religious chicks. Keep trying though. Love it!

"Oh there’s more where that came from:"

And this lady was a tea partier? She wasn't a plant? Why would someone crudely write something like to make their cause look popular? Notice that she's alone and NOT surrounded by other protestors perhaps because they would have ejected her.

Actually, one of the hilarious examples of a plant meant to discredit a movement turning out to be an honored member of it is the holiday of "kwanzaa" where an FBI plant for the black panthers invented an alternative socialist holiday to Christmas.

Did you celebrate Kwanzaa last year? :-)

In the meantime, I remember a protest held by feminists in DC where for "reproductive rights" and they wrote T-shirts that said "this is what a feminist looks like!"

Yikes! They should NOT have worn that shirt!

Those weren't plants. These were actual butch lesbians such as Rosie O'Donnel going out to show how "pretty" feminists could be.

The Washington Post buried their photos in the back of the A-section.

Sorry, I don't buy it. But do keep it up though because it clearly makes you feel "smart" and superior even if you know it's a scam. That's what a religion is all about! Repent before the earth warms! Imhotep forever!

PolishKnight says

That’s a basic summation of your position.

My post had 101 words and seemed succinct, counting the link as 1 word.

Your "summation" alone was 124 words, and put words in my mouth to boot.

After that you wander off into Jews and Nazi's and I lose interest.

PolishKnight says

Why would someone crudely write something like to make their cause look popular?

Indeed, why?

Vicente, I referred to a cartoon which cannot be counted as a "word".

Learn the difference between drawings and words.

The reference to the leftist billionaire capitalist George Soros making money off of collaborating with the Nazis is quite relevent to your claim that the financing of the tea partiers should somehow discredit the whole movement and comparisons to the former Soviet Union.

Yep, the left was made up of a former KKK member (Robert Byrd) and a nazi collaborator and you have the nerve to try to engage in a (lame) bluster about the tea party financing. Yeah, I know, ABC, CBS, and of course the NYT all got the "memo" and are making this a Democrat (and Al Quaeda :-) talking point, but the only probem with this strategy is that nobody, not even you, watches or reads those rags. :-) Nice try though.

PolishKnight says

Vicente, I referred to a cartoon which cannot be counted as a “word”.
Learn the difference between drawings and words.
The reference to the leftist billionaire capitalist George Soros making money off of collaborating with the Nazis is quite relevent to your claim that the financing of the tea partiers should somehow discredit the whole movement and comparisons to the former Soviet Union.

I know the Glenn Beck followers believe that George Soros and the Nazis and Jews or something run the Democratic Party. But they do not. In any case, George Soros did not contribute this year to political process and even when he did it was done publicly. Not through front organizations that make every effort to hide their actual source.

Yep, the left was made up of a former KKK member (Robert Byrd) and a nazi collaborator and you have the nerve to try to engage in a (lame) bluster about the tea party financing. Yeah, I know, ABC, CBS, and of course the NYT all got the “memo” and are making this a Democrat (and Al Quaeda talking point, but the only probem with this strategy is that nobody, not even you, watches or reads those rags. Nice try though.

Time to check your meds and your facts. Robert Byrd has been dead since June so I don't see current relevance.

"Indeed, why?" [picture of woman with socialism spelled wrong]

How about we put up pictures of the Discovery channel shooter being taken out by the police after killing people for a leftist environmental agenda and ask Al Gore about it?

Oh, wait, that's different. He wasn't a plant! :-)

Seriously, this is so crude Vicente. Let's guess how this woman's photo got there: She came in as a plant, got her butch lesbian girlfriend ready with the camera, and then flashed the sign while talking to a genuine tea partier. Then after hearing the flash, put the sign back down, smiled, and walked off and posted it online. Heck, she may not even be at a tea party rally. She may have gone to the (sparsely populated) leftist rally a month back and flashed the sign there.

That's ok though. Such desperate measures on your part, and theirs, shows you take the tea party seriously enough to try to discredit it. Good luck with that health care package getting those pro-obama voters out next week! :-)

Vicente, if the tea party's funding is illegal, prove it. It's as simple as that. The accused can just hire the same lawyer Bill Clinton did when he had to cover up all the Chinese and Indonesian funding he slushed around. :-) You didn't abandon leftism because of it's shady origins, so why should tea partiers really care whether a billionaire donated money to their cause, upfront or not?

Regarding what you "know" that Glenn Beck's "followers" believe. Good luck with that. Don't you know that sky is falling because of global warming and you should drive around town in your car preaching that cars are evil! Repent, right wingers! Repent! :-)

"Time to check your meds and your facts. Robert Byrd has been dead since June so I don’t see current relevance."

That's why I said "the left was made up". "was" is a word of the past tense. Robert Byrd didn't die that long ago so your hysteria over this issue is disingenuous. If the tables were turned, you'd dismiss or ignore it. We BOTH know this. WHO CARES?

In fact, much of your whole talking points is stuff only the salad tosser faithful in your region prattle on about. It's dogma about as relevent to people outside of your faith as Catholics who argue about what to eat on lent or not make a difference in converting others.

PolishKnight says

Let’s guess how this woman’s photo got there: She came in as a plant, got her butch lesbian girlfriend ready with the camera, and then flashed the sign while talking to a genuine tea partier.

Yes, we spend our time planting idiots in the Tea Party crowd, because plainly they do not have any homegrown.

It's from the Teabonics set:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pargon/sets/72157623594187379/

You caught me, plainly these were all staged. At Area 51 to boot, where we keep Hitler's brain and the UFOs.

Here's some funny examples of leftist plants being chased away by tea partiers.

http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/04/racist-leftist-infiltrators-driven-from-tea-party-rallies-video/

This is the same kind of tactics used by the Soviets both in and outside of the former Soviet Union (you mentioned the Soviets!) Discredit people by calling them "crazy" (send them to a horrid mental institution) or put in plants in their protests to discredit them. Then again, the FBI also did this with "Kwaanza" as I pointed out above. Hilarious you actually BOUGHT it!

Happy Kwaanza! I prefer Festivus myself! :-)

PolishKnight says

Here’s some funny examples of leftist plants being chased away by tea partiers.

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2010/01/04/photo-shows-top-tea-bagger-holding-sign-with-n-word-which-he-misspelled/

Better check your hat:

Technically these guys though, are not "leftist plants to embarrass you", which would imply they were pretending to be Teabaggers. they are counter-protesters. Funny ones too.

So let's see how your logic works. When I make a claim as to someone's political tendecies, you say it's merely "alleged" but pictures of a woman with a sign up at some undisclosed location and time must be a tea party rallier.

OK. Got it.

Come to think of it, since you guys like playing these games so much and I live near DC, I should crash one of your rallies and have some fun. Like get my wife and I with signs that say: "Death to America! Shariah law for all!" and "Heterosexuality is a disease! Proud to be gay!" and casually throw up the sign next to some leftist with her "Give peace a chance sign" while talking to her so she doesn't notice and snapping off a shot.

Then just go off, re-enter another section of the crowd, and do it again. And again.

Naw. Who'd care? Either way?

Do keep trying though. It might convince one "naive" voter to change his mind. Maybe.

PolishKnight,

I fully support you in your plan to "embarrass the left" by pretending to be one at rallies.

Love to see your photos!

Thanks!

At the main tea party rally last year, I had a sign with two sides in Polish and Russian:

"Socialism to nie jest zdrowiej!" hoping to get on Russia Today. Sadly, I didn't see their newsvan. :-(

PolishKnight says

So Vincente, a picture of a single person holding a button is proof that a majority of tea partiers “gave” themselves that name?
Howz your buddy Ted Kaczinski doing? Has he helped Al Gore stop global warming yet? (Granted, he is better dressed than most tossed salad eating environmentalists…)

Polish, get a brain. The St Louis Tea Party called itself that. Go to the website. Read what Hennessy said. BTW, there is quite a division in the Tea Party. There are some of the original ones, like Denninger, who says that this foreclosuregate issue is one of a rule of law. So, I would agree. Denninger knows that the Tea Party has been taken over by the Tea Party express, ie. Palin and Beck. I don't hear them talking about the rule of law.

If you want to understand finance, listen to Denninger, not the riff raff called Tea Party.

"Polish, get a brain."

When I was growing up, homophobia was common even in many cities. It was countered, successfully, by an informal leftist campaign that claimed that men obsessed with gays probably was just 'projecting' his own fears about being gay. Heterosexual men largely agreed they had a point. If you freaked out because a man was sitting too close next to you, then you really had to question your own security in your sexual identity.

I notice that leftists are obsessed with accusing their opponents of being idiots or stupid or manipulated or a "pawn" of foxnews, etc. In the meantime, their views are about as homogenous (pun intended considering the above) as churchgoers reading from the weekly gospel.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe you're just projecting your own fears onto conservatives? That others might think you're "stupid" or not "cool" or thinking for yourself after just spouting off the usual DNC talking points? That you feel worried people will call you stupid if you don't say what they want to hear? Certainly, you know that's what happens when someone disagree with you!

Quite frankly, I think I'm smart. I don't think I'm VERY smart (otherwise, I would be at Bildeberg :-) but I'm happy with who I am. I don't feel a need to remind others of their stupidity to think I'm smart. Sometimes I say stupid things. I live with it.

Gentlemen, I disagree with your agenda because I don't see anything in it for me. It's as simple as that. I don't need any T-shirts, or leather jackets or the Fonz going "eeeh! You're cool! Eeeeh!" I grew out of that WAAAAY back in high school.

Socialism has some great ideas. I'll admit it. Unfortunately, the fact that it's racist and sexist against me (both as a white, male, and heterosexual) makes this a bit of a no-brainer. It's the same reason why wife is anti-socialist. After 4 million of her fellow Ukrainians were killed by the utopia followers, and her father as a small child had to dodge bullets to forage for food, she's not going to convert just so you'll stop calling her "stupid." There's worse things than being called "stupid."

When you REALLY start scapegoating the rich, and not just the rich that disagree with you while giving Herr Soros a free pass, let me know. Until then, you're asking me to drink YOUR cool aid. Move into a nice, "diverse" inner city, give up your car and most of your electrical appliances, give your money to welfare mothers, and walk the walk. I keep my religion in church!

PolishKnight says

“Polish, get a brain.”
When I was growing up, homophobia was common even in many cities. It was countered, successfully, by an informal leftist campaign that claimed that men obsessed with gays probably was just ‘projecting’ his own fears about being gay. Heterosexual men largely agreed they had a point. If you freaked out because a man was sitting too close next to you, then you really had to question your own security in your sexual identity.
I notice that leftists are obsessed with accusing their opponents of being idiots or stupid or manipulated or a “pawn” of foxnews, etc. In the meantime, their views are about as homogenous (pun intended considering the above) as churchgoers reading from the weekly gospel.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe you’re just projecting your own fears onto conservatives? That others might think you’re “stupid” or not “cool” or thinking for yourself after just spouting off the usual DNC talking points? That you feel worried people will call you stupid if you don’t say what they want to hear? Certainly, you know that’s what happens when someone disagree with you!
Quite frankly, I think I’m smart. I don’t think I’m VERY smart (otherwise, I would be at Bildeberg but I’m happy with who I am. I don’t feel a need to remind others of their stupidity to think I’m smart. Sometimes I say stupid things. I live with it.
Gentlemen, I disagree with your agenda because I don’t see anything in it for me. It’s as simple as that. I don’t need any T-shirts, or leather jackets or the Fonz going “eeeh! You’re cool! Eeeeh!” I grew out of that WAAAAY back in high school.
Socialism has some great ideas. I’ll admit it. Unfortunately, the fact that it’s racist and sexist against me (both as a white, male, and heterosexual) makes this a bit of a no-brainer. It’s the same reason why wife is anti-socialist. After 4 million of her fellow Ukrainians were killed by the utopia followers, and her father as a small child had to dodge bullets to forage for food, she’s not going to convert just so you’ll stop calling her “stupid.” There’s worse things than being called “stupid.”
When you REALLY start scapegoating the rich, and not just the rich that disagree with you while giving Herr Soros a free pass, let me know. Until then, you’re asking me to drink YOUR cool aid. Move into a nice, “diverse” inner city, give up your car and most of your electrical appliances, give your money to welfare mothers, and walk the walk. I keep my religion in church!

Polish, let me simplify this for you since you are on planet complex, which means you don't get it. This is a battle between the banksters and the US justice system. The banksters don't care about legal details, they only want to blow bubbles. The US legal system doesn't care about bubbles, they just want the damn title properly recorded.

I side with the legal system which has served the United States well for many, many years. Who, Polish, do you side with?

If you want to make this a simple matter of the law, then why drag the tea partiers into it? If you open a can of worms, you get a lot of worms.

It's not just the tea partiers who think that people who fail to pay their mortgage are just using the title mess as a delaying tactic. In addition, it's not just the eeeevil bankers that want to blow bubbles. Normal homeowners (which comprise a majority of the populace) are happy to see the bubble inflated even if it means taking the whole country down with it because of their own greed. They want 10% a year profit on their house value. Forever.

People can wear a damn purple polka dot Mumu with Bozo the clown shoes, if they over 18, and aren't a Felon, they can still Vote. Nothing galvanized the intellectually inferior, like ridicule.

PolishKnight says

If you want to make this a simple matter of the law, then why drag the tea partiers into it? If you open a can of worms, you get a lot of worms.
It’s not just the tea partiers who think that people who fail to pay their mortgage are just using the title mess as a delaying tactic. In addition, it’s not just the eeeevil bankers that want to blow bubbles. Normal homeowners (which comprise a majority of the populace) are happy to see the bubble inflated even if it means taking the whole country down with it because of their own greed. They want 10% a year profit on their house value. Forever.

As Denninger says, this is not the point. You miss the point and so do most of the Tea Partiers. The point is the rule of law. Denninger is not happy with people living free but he says if this is the result of following the rule of law then it is necessary.

One other point, the securitization was a speculation which allowed easy money to drive the prices of housing up artificially. Technically these people who are underwater would have no house or not be underwater if this didn't happen. It was a scam, and they can walk away and I hope they get settlements or houses out of it.

It was bank caused.

GaryA says

As Denninger says, this is not the point. You miss the point and so do most of the Tea Partiers. The point is the rule of law. Denninger is not happy with people living free but he says if this is the result of following the rule of law then it is necessary.

As Gus Grissom would say:
"Farkin' A, bubba!"

Nicely restated.

GaryA says

One other point, the securitization was a speculation which allowed easy money to drive the prices of housing up artificially. Technically these people who are underwater would have no house or not be underwater if this didn’t happen. It was a scam, and they can walk away and I hope they get settlements or houses out of it.

No those were loans, that ultimately they singed a contract to pay on.
You can't in retrospect tell the Waitress, I'm not paying the bill for that Spaghetti, because the Owner of this here Diner is Frankie the Whale, and runs a bookie ring out the back.

I hope they get nothing but years of debt they'll never be able to repay. At least it will keep them out of the market driving RE prices up again.

You would let them off Scott free, and give them a Consolation prize, in cash so they can light that puppy up again.

Tenouncetrout says

GaryA says

One other point, the securitization was a speculation which allowed easy money to drive the prices of housing up artificially. Technically these people who are underwater would have no house or not be underwater if this didn’t happen. It was a scam, and they can walk away and I hope they get settlements or houses out of it.

No those were loans, that ultimately they singed a contract to pay on.

You can’t in retrospect tell the Waitress, I’m not paying the bill for that Spaghetti, because the Owner of this here Diner is Frankie the Whale, and runs a bookie ring out the back.
I hope they get nothing but years of debt they’ll never be able to repay. At least it will keep them out of the market driving RE prices up again.
You would let them off Scott free, and give them a Consolation prize, in cash so they can light that puppy up again.

As you will see in my other thread, it was a planned scam. It wasn't an accidental scam. People have the right to walk away from ponzi scams, every time!

GaryA says

Anyone who blames the borrowers is a joker. The banksters are at blame and your mortgage is most likely being paid to someone who doesn’t even hold your note and likely doesn’t even know where it is.

Every good reason to blame the buyers who paid/borrowed near million on what otherwise was a simple $300K home. I blame them even today in still thinking its worth north of 450K.
Freaking idiots with head and ego up their ass!

Forget the loan side ... why is it worth 3-4x more over pre-bubble years ?

I cant imagine any bankster involved in the stupidity of buyers inflating prices like this!
Can you!

GaryA claims: "As Denninger says, this is not the point."

Why don't you marry Denninger already? :-)

GaryA continues: "You miss the point and so do most of the Tea Partiers."

Did you take a poll of them? Ironically, the tea partiers are a pretty diverse group made up of mostly fiscal conservatives and a mixture of social conservatives and social libertarians. I personally think abortion should be legal, but not a constitutional right and don't care about gay marriage. Nearly all of them I have met are against the bank bailout and TARP.

In any case, you are distracting attention away from your precious point by arguing about what teapartiers think (while probably speaking to very few of them) rather than what you're trying to actually say. Tell you what, I'll address the point here on out and ignore your remarks about tea partiers.

[edit out "rule of law" stuff. Let's talk economics and government policy.]

GaryA continues: "One other point, the securitization was a speculation which allowed easy money to drive the prices of housing up artificially."

Securitization, by itself, isn't illegal or "easy money". At best, it lowers interest rates by servicers a half point or so and that helps make debt more affordable. It may save people $20,000 or so over the life of a loan which shouldn't be sneezed at.

Now what people decide to do with those savings is a free market consequence. Nobody tells them: "Bid $20K more for a place because it's "easy" money!" Just because cash for clunkers came out, you didn't have to pay full retail for a car because it was $3K off.

"Easy money" was a product of the fed lowering interest rates to zero AND the minority lending act that threatened banks and other servicers with lawsuits if they didn't meet their informal quota.

GaryA claims: "Technically these people who are underwater would have no house or not be underwater if this didn’t happen. It was a scam, and they can walk away and I hope they get settlements or houses out of it. "

For someone who talks about rule of law, you ignore all the liar loans these people signed up for and the fact that they clearly agreed to a certain loan amount at a certain price and gambled that prices would rise and they could refinance.

How is THAT a scam by securitization? It's a runup just like other bubbles that were fueled by investor mania like the internet bubble and the tulip craze a half millenium ago. No securitization necessary. An entire population of people were convinced that real estate ALWAYS goes up.

I hate to sound simplistic, but yes, it is as simple as that.

GaryA claims: "It was bank caused."

If the banks are in such control of everything, GaryA, I suggest you just give up. You won't win if you think that the banks tell everyone what to do and think.

Polish. Securitization allowed illegality, underwriting to go away, liar loans, fraud. And securitization may yet cause a boycott of housing. What good is it to pay off your house if you can't get the lien satisfied because people don't know where your note is?

Better to rent, save up, and buy cash.

And yes, the banks were in control, but America doesn't have to take it if they walk away and if they refuse to take on credit.

Investor mania was not the point. The point was speculation was set up by the banksters themselves. People didn't gamble that prices would rise. They were told through a very sophisticated scam that they would rise and if you didn't get in you would be left out of the market. You know that.

thomas.wong1986 says

GaryA says

Anyone who blames the borrowers is a joker. The banksters are at blame and your mortgage is most likely being paid to someone who doesn’t even hold your note and likely doesn’t even know where it is.

Every good reason to blame the buyers who paid/borrowed near million on what otherwise was a simple $300K home. I blame them even today in still thinking its worth north of 450K.

Freaking idiots with head and ego up their ass!
Forget the loan side … why is it worth 3-4x more over pre-bubble years ?
I cant imagine any bankster involved in the stupidity of buyers inflating prices like this!

Can you!

Thomas, where have you been. Underwriting was abandoned by the banksters on purpose. Their plan was the appreciation of the houses. More money for them and it helped convince investors to buy the crap MBS.